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Combat Pretzel posted:Too bad little was said about Zen4. I'd like to hear more about PCIe lane availability. I really doubt that the added 300 pins are just power delivery and some pins for video. Considering how throughly/accurately Zen 4 has leaked so far, if you give credence to the remaining rumors, it will have 28 lanes of PCIe 5.0. Some number of those might be burned by the chipset connection, though. E: the rest of the Zen 4 rumors are pretty wacky, including a pseudo big/little arrangement, 170W TDPs etc. Cygni fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 18:07
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Cygni posted:E: the rest of the Zen 4 rumors are pretty wacky, including a pseudo big/little arrangement, 170W TDPs etc. The slightly more credible rumor was zen5 will have little zen4 cores along with zen5 cores. This makes some sense, especially for apus and mobile, but I'm not entirely convinced it will happen on desktop. Khorne fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 18:27
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Khorne posted:zen4 little cores are a separate product and aren't "little" in the traditional sense. They're big zen4 cores with certain stuff removed/rearranged (idk there's no super credible leak on the exact design, they're designed for hyperscalers tho so stuff like avx512 is 100% cut). The slightly more credible rumor was zen5 will have little zen4 cores along with zen5 cores. The rumor is that Zen 4 on AM5 will have “preferred” and “LTDP” cores. Both are Zen 4 cores, but the LTDP cores only activate when the preferred cores are maxed. The v cache is supposedly mounted over the LTDP cores, and they are severely TDP limited (30W for all 8)
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Jan 6, 2022 18:33
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Cygni posted:The rumor is that Zen 4 on AM5 will have “preferred” and “LTDP” cores. Both are Zen 4 cores, but the LTDP cores only activate when the preferred cores are maxed. The v cache is supposedly mounted over the LTDP cores, and they are severely TDP limited (30W for all 8) If it happens, it'd be something we see discussion of during "look at zen4's performance/power consumption" presentations. Zen2/zen3 didn't really bring up their massive improvements to features like this and instead talked about power consumption/tdp during the full reveal without going into the why. e: Just realized this said "cores" and not "ccx". I'm going back to ignoring rumors! Still very happy with 12c+ zen2/zen3. It's GPU where I am unhappy. Khorne fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 18:45
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Hopefully this is the right place to ask this. I have a 1920x threadripper machine I spent a bit on when they came out which is my main workhorse for video/motion graphics work. I paid a company to build it, I'm not very technical. Will windows 11 run on my 1920x? I see conflicting stuff, but also some reports that amd chips will have up to a 15% slowdown on the windows 11 platform. Main reason I'm concerned is that I reckon Adobe will at some point say "hey, you have to have windows 11 to get any more updates."
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Jan 7, 2022 03:19
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Yes, Windows 11 is going to run on your Threadripper
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Jan 7, 2022 03:21
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Caveat is that unless you have a separate TPM 2.0 chip on the motherboard, it's "unsupported" on Windows 11 and maybe there will be consequences down the road? Who knows.
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Jan 7, 2022 03:24
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All modern AMD and Intel chips have a firmware TPM that works fine for Windows 11, the only caveat is that a lot of motherboards BIOSes have it disabled by default Chances are there's a BIOS update for your board that changes the defaults to what Win11 wants though, including enabling the fTPM
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Jan 7, 2022 03:27
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first gen zen chips don't have the ftpm
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Jan 7, 2022 03:28
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the_lion posted:Will windows 11 run on my 1920x? Yes, but you will need to force-install it because the CPU isn't on the supported list. the_lion posted:I see conflicting stuff, but also some reports that amd chips will have up to a 15% slowdown on the windows 11 platform. Depends on which reports you were reading. 1. When 11 launched it had some performance bugs on Ryzen (and threadripper) CPUs that impacted many applications, but which have since been cleared up. 2. CPUs that are on the supported list (mostly) are there because they have a feature that makes certain Virtual Machine operations much faster. This is important for 11 because at some point MS is going to turn on a security feature that kinda makes the OS into a constant VM. Defender and the kernel will live in one VM, and everything else will live in another. This is very nice for security because it makes attacks much harder -- it's much more difficult to reach across that VM barrier. The downside is that older CPUs without this feature will sometimes have performance impact from apps being in a VM all the time. This isn't a constant across-the-board penalty, it will be specific apps or specific operations in specific apps. Klyith fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 03:39
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Inept posted:first gen zen chips don't have the ftpm 100% wrong e: All AMD chips with Platform Security Processor have this ability, which for desktop CPUs is everything since Piledriver Klyith fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 03:42
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Thanks guys, this makes a lot more sense now!
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Jan 7, 2022 03:49
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Klyith posted:100% wrong ok documentation for this feature seems really terrible
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Jan 7, 2022 03:52
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https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-am5-to-be-a-long-lived-platform-backward-compatibility-with-am4-coolers-confirmed Nothing here really new, but: "I think we’re expecting AM4 to stay in the marketplace for quite some years and it will be sort of an overlapping type of thing." She probably just means in the legacy support sense, since there's at least one new AM4 chip confirmed to be coming out this year and they'll be selling new AM4 motherboards to support Zen 3 stuff for at least a little bit. But I also wonder if they may try to do some kind of further segmentation, where AM5 will only be for R5 and up, and maybe AMD's next low-end chips will be relegated to AM4? They say that their new IO die requires AM5's extra pins, but could they mix some cut-down Zen 4 CCDs with the Zen 3 IO die on AM4? Or am I reading too much into this statement?
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Jan 7, 2022 04:18
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Inept posted:documentation for this feature seems really terrible  yeah I'm pretty sure AMD stopped putting PSP on the spec sheet because the main thing people have asked for the last 10 years about TPM is "how do I turn it off?"Also you have to know that the Windows 11 support list from MS is not about TPM, it's all about that VM feature I talked about. But even that is also a crock of poo poo -- Zen+ / Ryzen 2xxx also don't have that feature despite being on the supported list! MS put Zen+ CPUs on the list because at the time they announced 11, they were still selling a Surface laptop with a Zen+ CPU. Uh-oh. Marketers vs engineers, fight! Marketers win, flawless victory.
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Jan 7, 2022 04:30
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If you have virtualisation enabled in your BIOS and do a clean install of W11, it's very likely you'll have VBS and HVCI enabled so make sure to disable them. Easiest is through group policy, should be under Admin Templates > System > Credential guard > Enable virtualisation based security. The performance loss on older CPUs can be pretty massive.
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Jan 7, 2022 06:06
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VBS is fine and has no impact on Zen+. HVCI (called Memory Integrity in Windows Security) however does have a huge impact, so that does indeed need to be disabled.
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Jan 7, 2022 06:49
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Is there anyone smarter than me here to tell me whether or not I should be pissed that Pluton is built into the 6000 series APUs? The takes I’ve seen range from “it’s just a TPM” to “it’s a full access hardware privacy nightmare which hands all of your information to Microsoft, of all people”
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Jan 7, 2022 18:24
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Cygni posted:Is there anyone smarter than me here to tell me whether or not I should be pissed that Pluton is built into the 6000 series APUs? The takes I’ve seen range from “it’s just a TPM” to “it’s a full access hardware privacy nightmare which hands all of your information to Microsoft, of all people” Teaching sand to think was the first mistake we made, then creating software that can change how the sand thinks was the next mistake and now we have yet another security 'coprocessor' that inevitably will have software teams with deadline / schedule pressures that will make mistakes (like all humans) and yes we'll probably end up with ME-like vulnerabilities again all in the name of 'security'. Or less cheeky I guess... 'meh'. There are so many little compute elements in modern devices now that it's a moot loving point these days for most of us home users. The big guys have already done the 'right' things by taking over BMCs / as much of those little things as they can, but that's just moving the security burden onto them / making them solely responsible for taking care of it.
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Jan 7, 2022 18:52
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Cygni posted:Is there anyone smarter than me here to tell me whether or not I should be pissed that Pluton is built into the 6000 series APUs? The takes I’ve seen range from “it’s just a TPM” to “it’s a full access hardware privacy nightmare which hands all of your information to Microsoft, of all people” Pissed that it's just there? Not really. It's mostly just a new TPM, not some surveillance device in and of itself. Don't take the advertising that it has "chip to cloud security" as a real capability, like this thing will be reporting your every move to the panopticon. It can't. It just has local on-chip firmware that only MS can update. (Via "the cloud", ie windows update.  )Pissed that MS may be taking a 2nd crack at the same sort of boiling-a-frog usurping of control that the 1st attempt at TPM was, only with the much more effective claim of preventing ransomware rather than enabling DRM? Maybe. I wouldn't call that paranoid, because that's what I believe they're doing. Basically if you don't like it, your plan should be to move to linux at some point in the future. On a linux machine Pluton will be just a functionless chunk of CPU die.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:09
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Initial reports suggest that you can interact with it in a lot of the same ways you can a tpm chip. If it's just on die tpm it should be possible to use for a secure boot Linux environment (eg you can sign your own keys). Definitely want to see more though.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:21
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Combat Pretzel posted:VBS is fine and has no impact on Zen+. HVCI (called Memory Integrity in Windows Security) however does have a huge impact, so that does indeed need to be disabled. Is HVCI impact high even on MBEC-capable CPUs? I've had it enabled on this 3600 for almost as long as I've had it and didn't see any major slowdowns in gaming when I first enabled all of the VBS features. This Ars article is the most recent I can find on the topic and it only talks about the up-to-40% penalty on non-MBEC enabled cpus. Haven't seen any discussion of overhead on MBEC-capable chips.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:38
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v1ld posted:Is HVCI impact high even on MBEC-capable CPUs? I've had it enabled on this 3600 for almost as long as I've had it and didn't see any major slowdowns in gaming when I first enabled all of the VBS features. Yes. Combat Pretzel has posted in the past about HVCI degrading performance on their modern PC (zen 3?), and this video goes into the impact it has on Alder Lake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weispOrByZ8 The TL;DW:  Not all games are hit hard, and sometimes the average frame rates are very similar. But with Cyberpunk 2077 for instance the 1% lows are much worse due to HVCI, which makes for a much more stuttery experience.
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Jan 7, 2022 20:48
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Ugh. Thanks for the links. E: v1ld fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 20:53
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Yes. Combat Pretzel has posted in the past about HVCI degrading performance on their modern PC (zen 3?), and this video goes into the impact it has on Alder Lake:
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Jan 7, 2022 21:08
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While only changing my CPU from 2700x to a 5950x, I was able to increase my stable RAM speed from 2933 to 3666. So far, this has been a fantastic upgrade. Work projects are loading 3-4x quicker, games are a ton smoother (despite being limited by my 1070), and even loading times in games are several seconds faster.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:03
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yeah loading times you'd anticipate, that's mostly CPU bound still.
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Jan 9, 2022 01:38
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one day i will update my 4960 non k, maybe with 2nd gen amd 5.
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Jan 9, 2022 02:00
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Kibner posted:While only changing my CPU from 2700x to a 5950x, I was able to increase my stable RAM speed from 2933 to 3666. I bang on about this all the time - the CPU gets your minimum framerates up and it's overlooked a lot. I've seen many posts saying there's no point upgrading things like 2700Xs or 6700Ks if the GPU is still the bottleneck, this is not true at all and upgrading the CPU even on a low-end GPU will still see significant and easily noticeable performance gains especially with regards to consistency and frame-pacing
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Jan 9, 2022 10:25
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:I bang on about this all the time - the CPU gets your minimum framerates up and it's overlooked a lot. I've seen many posts saying there's no point upgrading things like 2700Xs or 6700Ks if the GPU is still the bottleneck, this is not true at all and upgrading the CPU even on a low-end GPU will still see significant and easily noticeable performance gains especially with regards to consistency and frame-pacing This is not, as a broad rule, true. Look at GamersNexus GPU reviews that have 1% and 0.1% lows. Those low frames go up across the range of GPUs consistently. Now, since they're reviewing the GPU they have the fastest possible CPU in the system to remove CPU bottlenecks. But then turn to CPU reviews and you will see that most CPUs are able to stay well above 60FPS on 1% low in most games. Upgrading a 6700K does make sense and will help performance in a number of games, because the 4/4 threads are getting exposed as a major weakness. The 6700K is kinda the exception that proves the rule, in that it was one of the shittiest deals in PC hardware in a long time, at the height of Intel's squeezing the market. A 2700X to 5600X upgrade OTOH is pretty pointless. A 2700X is gonna maintain above 60FPS lows is most any game. Someone with particular interests like MS FlightSim or something might want to do it, but it's not a great place to spend money for most people.
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Jan 9, 2022 14:20
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You're just not right. Performance bottlenecking doesn't work that way. It's not the case that a 2700X with say, a 2060, and a 5600X with the same GPU are going to have the exact same experience. Performance constraints are often not purely one or the other. Dropping from a 3090 to a 2060 in that article is not going to drop the 41% average FPS improvement and 36% improvement in 1% lows down to nothing, and GPU is usually going to matter even less in the 0.1% lows which are typically going to be more CPU related. Even getting a 40ms frame spike once every 2 minutes (which at 80 FPS is a 0.01% minimum) is totally obnoxious and getting rid of that will feel good. It's not that everyone needs to always be upgrading CPUs, but right now when you literally can't buy GPUs, CPU upgrades can potentially be worthwhile even if you're primarily GPU bottlenecked. This becomes more true if you are a normal person and don't clean boot your system with nothing running every time you go to play a game, unlike hardware benches. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 15:11
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Frame rates are almost always going to be the lowest whenever you need fast user input so 0.1% lows are way more noticeable than the name suggests. It's not like early Zen CPUs are unusable but an upgrade is certainly worth considering, especially for multiplayer games. also how the gently caress is 60 fps still the benchmark in tyool 2022
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Jan 9, 2022 15:47
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Because people outside the enthusiast gamer bubble have 60 Hz TVs / monitors and GPUs that (used to) cost like $350 or less?
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Jan 9, 2022 15:56
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K8.0 posted:Performance constraints are often not purely one or the other. Dropping from a 3090 to a 2060 in that article is not going to drop the 41% average FPS improvement and 36% improvement in 1% lows down to nothing, and GPU is usually going to matter even less in the 0.1% lows which are typically going to be more CPU related. The question is, how much? Will a better CPU, on a GPU-constrained system, improve performance by 10%? I don't think so. I doubt it will even do 5%. Even on the low frames. There will be a measurable difference, but probably not a noticeable one. I'd like to see some evidence showing anything more than trivial improvements. I'd love to have some numbers showing 0.1% lows but even GN doesn't do those for CPU reviews. IIRC it's hard to get consistent results there. quote:It's not that everyone needs to always be upgrading CPUs, but right now when you literally can't buy GPUs, CPU upgrades can potentially be worthwhile even if you're primarily GPU bottlenecked. So GPUs prices are stupid, but it's not like they're gonna drop all the way to pre-pandemic levels in 2022. The last time this happened during the first buttcoin boom it took a while for prices to come back to earth, because there was still so much pent-up demand. Unless there is yet another extraordinary circumstance that kills demand GPUs will still be pricey. So for someone who has lots of money and their only problem is GPUs not being available to buy at all, sure, go nuts. For people who has been priced out of a GPU and has $500-750 to spend on PC gear this year? No, dropping $250-300 on a CPU upgrade based on the assumption that you will get a good GPU for under $500 in 2022 is not a good idea. I think GPUs will still be pretty expensive. gently caress, AMD just intro'd a GPU that's likely to perform like a 480, for $200. That should tell you what they think pricing is gonna look like. quote:This becomes more true if you are a normal person and don't clean boot your system with nothing running every time you go to play a game, unlike hardware benches. Getting rid of background crap running on your system is free, sounds like that should be the #1 recommendation for people that are unhappy with their CPU 1% lows. Also FYI I upgraded from a 1600X to a 3700X a little while ago. Because my main game for the last 2 years has been Satisfactory, which is heavy on CPU. So I'm not saying that CPU upgrades never make sense. Situationally they do. On average, GPU upgrades are better.
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Jan 9, 2022 16:00
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Arzachel posted:also how the gently caress is 60 fps still the benchmark in tyool 2022 Because it's a number with history, and somewhere around that mark is what most people still agree is acceptable performance even if you have a high-refresh / VFR monitor. You could pick 60, or 70, or whatever as your number that you want your 1% lows to hit -- but a higher number does not make the GPU matter less. Especially if you play in higher than 1080p resolution. So it's not some big own to say "heh get out with your 60FPS console peasant" in this context.
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Jan 9, 2022 16:18
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orcane posted:Because people outside the enthusiast gamer bubble have 60 Hz TVs / monitors and GPUs that (used to) cost like $350 or less?
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Jan 9, 2022 16:47
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orcane posted:Because people outside the enthusiast gamer bubble have 60 Hz TVs / monitors and GPUs that (used to) cost like $350 or less? I'm fairly certain anyone posting here isn't those people
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Jan 9, 2022 17:34
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I thought you meant in general but yes I'm absolutely playing my video games on a 60 Hz office monitor or a 60 Hz TV because I can't be assed upgrading my GPU and it's fine for the games I play.
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Jan 9, 2022 17:47
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Are you guys posting over each other? I think OP's point was that a better CPU matters more than the other poster thinks they do? And he's right, oh boy did going from a i7-920 to a 3600 while staying with a 1070 make a huge loving difference. Not to my max frames but to the consistency of the frametimes. Now I'm on the 3600 with a 3080 and I'm eyeing the newest and last 3D zen chip for my generation baked, x570. And I think the other post is arguing if you're going to spend money on an upgrade, that you're better spent spending it on a better GPU... which is common sense? OP wasn't talking about that? Yeah no duh for your dollar a GPU is where your money is best spent. Doesn't change the fact that boosting 0.1 lows and frametimes across the board will be perceivable.
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Jan 9, 2022 17:49
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Other poster said it matters less than the first poster thinks  Obviously upgrading a (now) 13yo CPU on an ancient platform to something more modern will very noticeably boost your minimum FPS, and so will upgrading from a 4-thread CPU that's running into problems in modern games that can or want to use more than four threads (before you even have other stuff running on your PC). Upgrades across 1-2 generations of similar performance levels might matter a lot less, but it all comes down to the indivual situation - what games do you play, what resolution, what GPU, what's your RAM like etc.). Ryzen 2700X to 5600X might be noticeable in most cases, 2700X to 3700X or 3700X to 5600X alone might not, and whether that's worth the upgrade price to someone is a different matter.
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Jan 9, 2022 18:45
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