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Ah yes, the good ol Economic Anxiety. How do we help those poor unfortunate guys when they repeatedly vote against their interests?
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Jan 7, 2022 21:54
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FilthyImp posted:Ah yes, the good ol Economic Anxiety. The answer to this is to offer them stuff that’s in their interest. As it stands the republicans offer them their culture war needs and the democrats don’t offer them anything really. Of course they go with the side that gives them something they want instead of the side that scolds them. It’s not difficult to understand. It is difficult to address apparently Edit: To be clear, I don’t think it’s right to say they vote against their interests. They have conflicting interests on economic and culture spheres and they vote for the side that gives them more of what they want in one sphere or the other HashtagGirlboss fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 21:57
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I'm sorry I upset you I guess but if you're going to post something like this at least argue with the content of my post rather than whining about my "sentiment". The "recorded, observable reality" is that the United States operates is as fully and completely as "fascist" as you fear, only that it is directed against people who are sufficiently unlike you for you to care about is as much as you care about an imagined violent coup by some of the country's dumbest oafs. There's not a lot of content to dispute in your post though. It's just 250000 words to state "people who care about 1/6 are all disgusting, disingenuous obsessives who don't care about injustice. I know this because them existing made me angry enough to write out a 250000 word post". That probably isn't what you meant, but it's what you wrote. Like I'm with you that Democrats in congress are disgusting and disingenuous about how they are handling this, and *genuinely* thought the Hamilton crew doing a musical was a weird Twitter joke and was horrified when I found out that it was real. Both of those things and the poo poo Democrats have done are great arguments for why democrats in congress don't give a gently caress, really. There's a shitton of contradictions in how they talk about it and how they treat it. That poo poo is real and obaervable, and I think it's what you're really trying to get at. You're not making any kind of useful attempt to differentiate between the powerful and powerless outside of comical extremes though, going so far as to suggest american citizens don't need to worry about facists targeting them. But I know americans who were targeted by facist LEOs due to their race. The end result is you're talking out your rear end, spewing assumptions about those who don't think like you you. A 250000 word wet fart of bizarre assumptions flying out your butt may feel like effort, but it's refuted by the wealth people who don't fit your narrow-rear end model of thought. I mean, is it really that hard to believe that someone could beleive the 2000 election got stolen, that fear for their lives when near an LEO, could see both themselves as a victim of facism but also be terrified about a mob of violent whites storming into congress with a confederate flag to try and gently caress with an election. I know people who had to be escorted to polls to discourage cops from randomly charging em' with bullshit to try and gently caress with voter turnout (gently caress Toledo PD), people with no illusions about the US, who were absolutely horrified at what that meant.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:58
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HashtagGirlboss posted:Sure. But that’s an actual coup scenario and not whatever this was. That starts from the institutional decision to take power and in that scenario the mob storming the capital is just window dressing. If the powers that be decide to seize the government all bets are off, but a disorganized mob isn’t going to be central to that plan The powers that be have already seized the government. Every house and senate position requires bales of corporate money and promises of favorable policy to get elected. The government is just middle management for corporate interests. Its the reason this whole fretting over "democracy in peril" is nonsense. That died shortly after Reagan when neoliberalism and the upward transfer of wealth became the dominant ideology across both parties.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:58
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Bifner McDoogle posted:There's not a lot of content to dispute in your post though. It's just 250000 words to state "people who care about 1/6 are all disgusting, disingenuous obsessives who don't care about injustice. I know this because them existing made me angry enough to write out a 250000 word post". That probably isn't what you meant, but it's what you wrote. I don't think you understand his point at all? Because you're doing a horrible job of arguing against it. Responding to the claim that america is already fascist against a bunch of groups of people and that 1/6 is being talked up so a bunch of comfortable nerds can feel the vicarious thrill of being in that danger by talking about how you know a bunch of people who are victimized by american fascism and they totally agree with you is making his point for him?? e: remembered I'm not in cspam, taking that part out
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Jan 7, 2022 22:13
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Pointing out people being targeted by fascist LEOs is an interesting argument given that the only substantial legislation to come out of 1/6 was more money for LEOs
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Jan 7, 2022 22:17
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FilthyImp posted:Ah yes, the good ol Economic Anxiety. Who exactly is representing their interests that they should be voting for
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Jan 7, 2022 22:17
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some plague rats posted:Who exactly is representing their interests that they should be voting for Howie Hawkins
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Jan 7, 2022 22:21
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VitalSigns posted:Howie Hawkins Oh yeah right. Fair enough
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Jan 7, 2022 22:23
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some plague rats posted:You mean a bunch of people who, in front of the entire world, accomplished jack poo poo to change anything, were talking big after the fact about how next time we'll get it right, next time won't be a shambles? Yeah. Bunch of losers who came within a nut hair of taking a member of congress hostage as the country waited for someone to do something about it and who largely got off scot free. Bunch of pussies with NO military or police training, with no money and who in no way hate gays or minorities that want to install a theocratic government led by a reality TV real estate salesman. They changed a LOT. They and their ilk; their representatives in government are making more progress than whatever Joe Biden is doing. And the people labeling them as a harmless joke are frankly beginning to piss me off and worry me a bit. I don't know where some of you people live but there a LOT of these dumb morons. A disturbingly large amount, many of whom work in law enforcement, own businesses, are being elected to school boards and increasingly walk the halls of government. I mean, OK, "huh huh, what a buncha dumb redneck rubes. Couldn't even overthrow the government of the largest country in the world and only made off with a podium. What a buncha dipshits who forgot to bring enough guns and didn't even kill anybody of note. Some revolution." Except that most of America (for now) and most of the world poo poo their collective pants and rightfully wondered exactly wtf is going on in a country that, along with China, drives the entire global economy and, rightfully or not, is seen as something of a stabilizing force that provides a semi sense of normalcy and, often - still even now - a better alternative to where they live, the government they have and the opportunities they're afforded. Did Donald Trump fade into obscurity? Did the GOP hang their heads in shame? Did RWM shift their tone? Did any of the members of congress that aided and abetted this suffer consequences? Are their more Never Trumpers or less now than before? How's the polling for the mid terms looking for Republicans? Something Awful is a pretty left leaning website that I enjoy reading and use for information here and there but to come in here and read people writing about this thing as if it were nothing more than a Larry the Cable Guy Movie writ large or an SNL skit poking fun at Proud Boys just one year after it happened is honestly a little troubling to me. Keep loving laughing if it makes you feel better and more secure I suppose. Maybe that's just where we are and it'll take an(other) actual political assassination attempt or another Tim McVeigh bombing for people to take these people and their nazi bullshit with the seriousness that it deserves.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:28
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Bishyaler posted:If you want to do something substantial about 1/6 instead of using it as a cudgel to label every Republican voter as treasonous swine or boosting your Disney stock, you need to address the root cause of radicalization and indoctrination of the public. As long as material conditions get worse for the working class, radicalizing these guys is going to be extremely easy. And as long as radicalizing them is easy and profitable, the corporate media is going to play both sides doing exactly that. If you believe the party in power are the good guys, if you believe they care about preventing more 1/6s, they should be addressing those two core issues. these guys aren't the downtrodden, they're business owners and off duty cops
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Jan 7, 2022 22:37
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BiggerBoat posted:Yeah. Bunch of losers who came within a nut hair of taking a member of congress hostage as the country waited for someone to do something about it and who largely got off scot free. Bunch of pussies with NO military or police training, with no money and who in no way hate gays or minorities that want to install a theocratic government led by a reality TV real estate salesman. A successful coup requires military backing or at least some firearms. A bunch of angry middle aged men could take selfies in the Capitol as long as they wanted and our government would be fine because you can't collapse it by occupying one building. But lets pump the brakes and take everything you said at face value. Let's pretend one half of the US are all violent insurrectionists. What's your move to rectify that situation?
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Jan 7, 2022 22:37
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HashtagGirlboss posted:One other thought. I have a hard time seeing this happen again regardless of what types of charges are being levied. Seriously? News flash: it won't happen the same way next time. It will be more spread out, locally targeted, more heavily armed and have more inside support from law enforcement with 88 and 3% tattoos under their sleeves. Also, so you're saying that if Trump re-wins the White House in 2024 (a very real possibility), that something resembling another shot at this won't be more effective with a galvanized CHUD electorate, a sitting president with a "4 more years" mandate and a bunch of idiots waving flags with nothing but revenge, redemption, and payback on their minds and hatred in their hearts? This honestly strikes you as a long shot; with an opposition party that has shown themselves time and time again unwilling to fight back and oppose the rising tide of fascism in the United States? Where are you placing your optimism and why?
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Jan 7, 2022 22:38
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BiggerBoat posted:Keep loving laughing if it makes you feel better and more secure I suppose. Maybe that's just where we are and it'll take an(other) actual political assassination attempt or another Tim McVeigh bombing for people to take these people and their nazi bullshit with the seriousness that it deserves. What would "taking these people and their Nazi bullshit with the seriousness that it deserves" mean, exactly? I'm not talking about what it doesn't look like; what should people be doing or saying about these things, in your mind? e: I'm genuinely asking, to be completely clear. I think we all agree that the Dems as a party aren't treating it with any real sort of seriousness. Some of us are involved in various direct action campaigns, and there's always getting involved in Antifa or other movements like that, but beyond that, what should we be doing? At some point, it seems to me like all one CAN do is laugh at the ridiculous aspects of it all. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 22:38
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Bishyaler posted:A successful coup requires military backing or at least some firearms. A bunch of angry middle aged men could take selfies in the Capitol as long as they wanted and our government would be fine because you can't collapse it by occupying one building. p sure the bigger threat was interrupting the peaceful transfer of power so as to keep trump in power, vs military overthrow of trump's own government why tf would they be trying to overthrow trump Majorian posted:What would "taking these people and their Nazi bullshit with the seriousness that it deserves" mean, exactly? I'm not talking about what it doesn't look like; what should people be doing or saying about these things, in your mind? shun them, infiltrate them, prosecute them, and so on
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Jan 7, 2022 22:40
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Bishyaler posted:A successful coup requires military backing or at least some firearms. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zoetillman/capitol-riot-weapons-charges "At least 85 people are charged with carrying or using a weapon during the Capitol riots, according to BuzzFeed News’ analysis of court records. [...] Below are the main categories of weapons that prosecutors have identified in the more than 650 cases filed so far, with most defendants charged not yet convicted." Also a coup does not require a military backing. It often helps but is not required. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0022343317747668 camoseven posted:Reffitt is one of three people charged with carrying a gun onto Capitol grounds; no one is charged so far with having a gun inside the building. The Sean fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jan 7, 2022 |
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Jan 7, 2022 22:43
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Herstory Begins Now posted:shun them, infiltrate them, prosecute them, and so on I mean, I'm already way ahead of you on point 1. Point 2, maybe, but that's something that people should probably figure out away from here. Point 3...I guess I'll get right on that after I go to law school and get elected DA or something? I may end up doing that last thing, I'm considering it, but I can't promise I'll be quick about it. In the meantime, though, what should people here be doing? Because I don't think any of us is in a position to prosecute 1/6 rioters or anything.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:45
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The Sean posted:https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zoetillman/capitol-riot-weapons-charges Reffitt is one of three people charged with carrying a gun onto Capitol grounds; no one is charged so far with having a gun inside the building.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:45
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BiggerBoat posted:Yeah. Bunch of losers who came within a nut hair of taking a member of congress hostage Absolute horseshit. Not even remotely true. BiggerBoat posted:want to install a theocratic government led by a reality TV real estate salesman. You mean the guy who was president for 4 years? The guy who won a legitimate election in 2016 and did whatever he wanted? Odd that you're not in jail...? BiggerBoat posted:Except that most of America (for now) and most of the world poo poo their collective pants and rightfully wondered exactly wtf is going on in a country that, along with China, drives the entire global economy and, rightfully or not, is seen as something of a stabilizing force that provides a semi sense of normalcy and, often - still even now - a better alternative to where they live, the government they have and the opportunities they're afforded. oh my god you cannot be serious Okay look the response from the rest of the world was a shrugging "oh look, the americans are at it again" and the day after it happened nobody gave a poo poo! I could ask everyone I know about 1/6 and I guarantee fully half of them couldn't even tell you what I'm talking about. As for that second bit, well, starting to question some of your basic assumptions about the way the world works. BiggerBoat posted:Did Donald Trump fade into obscurity? Did the GOP hang their heads in shame? Did RWM shift their tone? Did any of the members of congress that aided and abetted this suffer consequences? Are their more Never Trumpers or less now than before? How's the polling for the mid terms looking for Republicans? Why would any of this happen? It didn't happen in 2000 when the GOP actually successfully stole an election. The only consequences they're going to face are some pathetic scoldings from people they already hate, what do they have to be ashamed of? BiggerBoat posted:Keep loving laughing if it makes you feel better and more secure I suppose. Maybe that's just where we are and it'll take an(other) actual political assassination attempt or another Tim McVeigh bombing for people to take these people and their nazi bullshit with the seriousness that it deserves. What's your suggestion? The only remedy you seem to be offering is that everyone posting here should start making GBS threads their pants and squawking about how the sky is falling. I'm sure that might make you feel less weird and alone but it's not really a call to action. When you say we should take it seriously what exactly do you mean? Would it help if I started gnashing my teeth and rending my garments or what?
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Jan 7, 2022 22:49
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BiggerBoat posted:Seriously? Friend, I have no optimism. If you think that you significantly misunderstand me. I think we’re headed down a path towards a crisis and nobody seems to have any interest in figuring out how to avoid it But I think 1/6 is a silly distraction When things get real it’ll come from institutions and state power. It’s not going to be a disorganized mod of seadoo dealers and real estate agents. Nor is it going to be militia cosplayers and proud boys looking to get into street fights to feel like their life has meaning You misunderstand the threat. Bishyaler understands the trajectory and when we get to the point that they can’t manufacture consent anymore they’ll just take power officially. But it’s going to come from inside, not outside
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Jan 7, 2022 22:50
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Herstory Begins Now posted:shun them, infiltrate them, prosecute them, and so on Do you think most people posting here are cops or DAs...? Or are you calling for more PPJ antics
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Jan 7, 2022 22:50
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BiggerBoat posted:Something Awful is a pretty left leaning website that I enjoy reading and use for information here and there but to come in here and read people writing about this thing as if it were nothing more than a Larry the Cable Guy Movie writ large or an SNL skit poking fun at Proud Boys just one year after it happened is honestly a little troubling to me. Same, man. Same.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:52
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Majorian posted:I mean, I'm already way ahead of you on point 1. Point 2, maybe, but that's something that people should probably figure out away from here. Point 3...I guess I'll get right on that after I go to law school and get elected DA or something? I may end up doing that last thing, I'm considering it, but I can't promise I'll be quick about it. dude this as nothing to do with what i posted. i dont think there's jack poo poo that people here can meaningfully do to effect much change on the american far right. It's 50-100m people. It requires societal level interventions, which I assumed was apparent in the convo because I was replying to a post about how their material conditions needed to be improved.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:53
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Herstory Begins Now posted:i dont think there's jack poo poo that people here can meaningfully do to effect much change on the american far right. It's 50-100m people. And they're all comfortable affluent small business owners? All of them?
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Jan 7, 2022 22:54
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For perspective, I have heard of nobody in Turkey making GBS threads their pants over January 6. Maybe 10 people who aren’t also American citizens would call it a coup.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:55
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VitalSigns posted:And they're all comfortable affluent small business owners? some of them are cops, too but yes, who else do you think is taking time off during the middle of the week to fly across the country for a trump rally
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Jan 7, 2022 22:56
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Bishyaler posted:A successful coup requires military backing or at least some firearms. A bunch of angry middle aged men could take selfies in the Capitol as long as they wanted and our government would be fine because you can't collapse it by occupying one building. God loving dammit. I never said it had to be successful in order to loving matter and be taken seriously and I have been as clear as I know how to be explaining why I don't think this is a joke or why people should laugh it off, sometimes going overboard with effort posts. I never said one half either. I said 30%. You're coming off as "I mean, honestly, do they give out a Nobel Prize for attempted insurrection?" If you or anyone else want to take my argument(s) apart and explain why all of this is no big deal or how I'm freaking out about nothing, then quote the poo poo I write and have at it a little. But now you're kind of pivoting from "hey chill out, Chicken Little" to "how would you loving solve it if you think it's so serious?" I don't have a loving solution, dude, and it's not my job; you know, me not being a lawmaker or someone in power and everything. I'm just someone who considers 1/6 a big deal worth worrying about and no one here has convinced me to think otherwise, including you.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:56
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mawarannahr posted:For perspective, I have heard of nobody in Turkey making GBS threads their pants over January 6. Maybe 10 people who aren’t also American citizens would call it a coup. Ah, yes, the classic test of "is this the definition of an attempted coup: ask randos in Turkey." Welp, since you haven't heard of anybody in Turkey worried about this we should close the thread. Oh, and also update academic resources on the definition to reflect this approach.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:56
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BiggerBoat posted:
And you're doing literally nothing to make me think I should take it more seriously. Of anything you're convincing me it was a bigger joke than I previously thought, considering the person most dedicated to shrieking what a traumatic, world-shaking event it was has literally no idea what the response should be other than "just start panicking"
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Jan 7, 2022 23:00
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The Sean posted:Ah, yes, the classic test of "is this the definition of an attempted coup: ask randos in Turkey." Someone posted saying that most of the world poo poo their pants. I am from Turkey and have been living in the US since 2017, and I’ve worked at places where the majority of my colleagues had been detained and tortured during coups. I’ve talked with some of them since about the US. Just sharing my personal assessment with y’all.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:00
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The Sean posted:Ah, yes, the classic test of "is this the definition of an attempted coup: ask randos in Turkey." No one likes this kind of smarmy sarcasm, dude.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:01
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Herstory Begins Now posted:dude this as nothing to do with what i posted. i dont think there's jack poo poo that people here can meaningfully do to effect much change on the american far right. It's 50-100m people. It requires societal level interventions, which I assumed was apparent in the convo because I was replying to a post about how their material conditions needed to be improved. You were replying to my post, in which I asked BiggerBoat what people here "taking 1/6 seriously" would look like.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:01
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Majorian posted:What would "taking these people and their Nazi bullshit with the seriousness that it deserves" mean, exactly? I'm not talking about what it doesn't look like; what should people be doing or saying about these things, in your mind? WEll, we can start by people on the very left leaning website, SomethingAwful.com, admitting that Jan 6 is not funny and not to be taken lightly or brushed off and hand waved. Are some of you people even serious? We're moving from me arguing that the 1/6 insurrection is serious and explaining why I think that when others call it a joke to you guys asking me what the gently caress to do about it? The gently caress do you WANT me to do about it beyond expecting people to think it was a big deal? Oh, wait. Lemme run for office and head up a committee. I'll PM you some fund raiser links. Meanwhile, I'll take on all these cops down here in NE Florida that found it funny too. I don't know. I'm open to loving suggestions but jesus christ with the goal posts.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:03
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mawarannahr posted:Someone posted saying that most of the world poo poo their pants. I am from Turkey and have been living in the US since 2017, and I’ve worked at places where the majority of my colleagues had been detained and tortured during coups. I’ve talked with some of them since about the US. Just sharing my personal assessment with y’all. I was actually going to edit that to reflect that my response to you isn't about you but of the gatekeeping I've seen over what defines the coup. I wanted to state that and then I saw your response. I didn't get that context of other people claiming the world was making GBS threads their pants or whatever. I didn't see that quoted, but on my end I'm tired of people making goofy definitions of coups that aren't real. Without the context I made a wrong assumption. some plague rats posted:No one likes this kind of smarmy sarcasm, dude. Well, if it was what they were saying (they stated they werent) then it would still be an inaccurate definition.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:03
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mawarannahr posted:For perspective, I have heard of nobody in Turkey making GBS threads their pants over January 6. Maybe 10 people who aren’t also American citizens would call it a coup. tbf turkey has far higher standards from much deeper experience with military coups. like you need at least a jet intercept of the president's plane and some tanks rolling around the streets before anyone starts talking about a coup
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Jan 7, 2022 23:04
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Herstory Begins Now posted:some of them are cops, too But even if you limit it to just the people at the rally you are still wrong https://twitter.com/debdrens/status/1450566676399935490 https://twitter.com/debdrens/status/1451148517335052289
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Jan 7, 2022 23:06
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BiggerBoat posted:Short answer: bad. Bad things happen and we move closer to fascism. what fascism, dude?? literally every single thing you can point to and call fascism we're already doing, with the singular exception that we're not doing it to people like you and the maga chuds doing what they did was scary because it helped you to imagine what if they did it to people like you. I really, really wish global capitalist hegemony could be crushed by lighting up a few congressmen but I don't think that's the world we live in. Trump is going to get reelected but it really doesn't matter if he is or isn't. We're not moving closer to fascism. We're already in it and more and more people are going to be shuffled into the "other" category and suffer exactly what you imagine "fascism" to be but that's 100% going to happen regardless of who is elected. Not because of Trump hating muslims or the gays or whatever the gently caress but because this is inevitable as capital is forced to turn inward and predate on the core as vectors for exploitation dry up elsewhere. Maybe you want to say 1/6 was a symptom of this and, fine, but it was and remains a completely meaningless event. 100% culture war bullshit spectacle created by and for fully mystified people. Bifner McDoogle posted:You're not making any kind of useful attempt to differentiate between the powerful and powerless outside of comical extremes though, going so far as to suggest american citizens don't need to worry about facists targeting them. But I know americans who were targeted by facist LEOs due to their race. The end result is you're talking out your rear end, spewing assumptions about those who don't think like you you. A 250000 word wet fart of bizarre assumptions flying out your butt may feel like effort, but it's refuted by the wealth people who don't fit your narrow-rear end model of thought. what in the world does the ambient American white supremacist culture or police violence have to do with 1/6, beyond that conservatives are racist by dint of being conservatives? I'm genuinely trying to understand your argument here, but is it that it is okay for people of color to be scared of 1/6 because the people who carried out the "coup" were conservatives and, therefore, racist? And that they're emboldened? Or at least riled up enough to do something big like that without a great amount of pushback? Racial tension and white supremacist violence is going to rise like crazy because of deteriorating infrastructure and the accelerating impoverishing and immiseration of the American citizenry regardless of who was, is, and will be president. You're going to have to show some work if you want to tell me 1/6 was due to racism or some sort of exhibition of the white supremacy that has suffused the American police. That was BLM (or rather the causes of and response to it). I don't know though it still seems like you don't understand my argument and I'm pretty sure I don't understand yours, here at least.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:07
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VitalSigns posted:well first of all there weren't 50M-100M people at the Trump rally in DC, so it seems you're shifting definitions as convenient to prop up your argument. Even if all the people at the rally were too rich to be bothered by the American worker's collapsing material conditions, that's not going to describe all 50M-100M people you are saying supported it what are you arguing here? obviously not literally 100% of people there are executives and cops. Some were also losers there with their moms, none of that disputes the overall characterization of the people there that day.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:10
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BiggerBoat posted:WEll, we can start by people on the very left leaning website, SomethingAwful.com, admitting that Jan 6 is not funny and not to be taken lightly or brushed off and hand waved. WHAT DIFFERENCE DO YOU IMAGINE THIS WILL MAKE BEYOND MAKING YOU FEEL BETTER
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Jan 7, 2022 23:12
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BiggerBoat posted:WEll, we can start by people on the very left leaning website, SomethingAwful.com, admitting that Jan 6 is not funny and not to be taken lightly or brushed off and hand waved. I've been on the "January 6 was serious and dangerous" train the whole time. It had some funny aspects, but you'll hear no arguments from me when you say that it was overall a bad, grotesque thing. But at this point in time, there's not much I or anyone else here can do about it. The Dems certainly aren't doing very much about it. If yesterday's spectacle was any indication, as a party they're not taking Jan 6 any more seriously than the most jaded posters here. People on a decaying comedy forum not taking it as seriously as you or I do isn't going to make much of a difference one way or the other.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:13
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