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Somaen posted:Winning the war after retroactively absolves allying with him in the first place leading to the invasions of Poland and France which created the conditions for invading the Soviet Union huh? From a brutal realpolitik perspective there was a certain sense in Stalin allowing the Western Allies and the Nazis to duke it out while the Soviets remained neutral and consolidated its borders in the East while also building up their war making capacity. The problem for Stalin was that it didn't degenerate into a replay of WW1 on the western front and instead the French just collapsed while the British were thrown off the continent with minimum German losses, which left the Soviets way more vulnerable then anticipated since the Germans could simply concentrate all their power on the showdown both Hitler and Stalin would knew was going to happen at some point.
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Jan 7, 2022 21:46
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Yes it made political sense, but doesn't really paint him as the protector of the world against fascism when his original plan was essentially to help arm the fascists for a war that would ravage Europe (and hopefully give the Red Army a chance to sweep in eventually)
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Jan 7, 2022 21:52
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steinrokkan posted:Yes it made political sense, but doesn't really paint him as the protector of the world against fascism when his original plan was essentially to help arm the fascists for a war that would ravage Europe (and hopefully give the Red Army a chance to sweep in eventually) Ordering the Comintern parties to support the Nazis was a nice touch by Uncle Joe.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:02
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Stalin was a genocidal, egoistic, sadistic piece of poo poo. Millions of Soviet citizens died in the famines he caused in the thirties. He doesn't deserve to be excused just because he managed to fight off an even more genocidal, egoistic, sadistic piece of poo poo dictator coming for him. Death to all dictators.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:49
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Nenonen posted:Stalin was a genocidal, egoistic, sadistic piece of poo poo. Millions of Soviet citizens died in the famines he caused in the thirties. He doesn't deserve to be excused just because he managed to fight off an even more genocidal, egoistic, sadistic piece of poo poo dictator coming for him. Death to all dictators. To indulge in personal attacks, pick quarrels, vent personal spite or seek revenge instead of entering into an argument and struggling against incorrect views for the sake of unity or progress or getting the work done properly. This is a fifth type of liberalism.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:13
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Nenonen posted:Stalin was a genocidal, egoistic, sadistic piece of poo poo. Millions of Soviet citizens died in the famines he caused in the thirties. He doesn't deserve to be excused just because he managed to fight off an even more genocidal, egoistic, sadistic piece of poo poo dictator coming for him. Death to all dictators. Not that it matters much, but Stalin was IMO the worse of the two. Hitler was lawful evil and his evil system had clear enemies and rules an average citizen could play by. Stalin's rule devoured (in addition to regular enemies) his own allies, military commanders, artists, and entirely random people. It was a paranoid hell with no rhyme or reason, from which Russia still carries an unseen burden.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:49
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This sucks.
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Jan 7, 2022 23:59
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Doctor Malaver posted:Not that it matters much, but Stalin was IMO the worse of the two. Hitler was lawful evil and his evil system had clear enemies and rules an average citizen could play by. Stalin's rule devoured (in addition to regular enemies) his own allies, military commanders, artists, and entirely random people. It was a paranoid hell with no rhyme or reason, from which Russia still carries an unseen burden. Ah yes, Lawful Evil Hitler, setting up clear rules. Jesus loving Christ, you really do not need to type out horrible poo poo like this to dunk on Stalin. You really don't need to do the "gotta hand it to Nazis" bit in order to dunk on Stalin. So please, please don't do that. You're better than that.
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Jan 8, 2022 00:26
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Doctor Malaver posted:Not that it matters much, but Stalin was IMO the worse of the two. Hitler was lawful evil and his evil system had clear enemies and rules an average citizen could play by. Stalin's rule devoured (in addition to regular enemies) his own allies, military commanders, artists, and entirely random people. It was a paranoid hell with no rhyme or reason, from which Russia still carries an unseen burden. look i wasnt going to say anything but this is an insanely bad post. please actually read a history of the nazi party or something
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Jan 8, 2022 00:32
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Hitler had SA leaders who had been his allies from the very beginning murdered once they became too embarrassing, and put people who supported him in concentration camps for disagreeing with him later like Martin Niemöller, better known as the author of the "First they came for..." poem. But at least he set up clear rules that anyone could live by such as "don't be a Jew" or "don't be disabled" or "don't disagree with my bonkers racial theories" E: or "don't lose the war" since his response to any adviser telling him the war had become hopeless and it was time to sue for peace to save German lives was that if the German people couldn't defeat the Allies in a glorious last stand then they all deserved to die anyway for their weakness. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 00:46
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Also really loving weird to focus on "how to live as a Nazi citizen" as if Hitler just sat around ruling Germany, and didn't y'know, invade places.
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Jan 8, 2022 00:48
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Rust Martialis posted:To indulge in personal attacks, pick quarrels, vent personal spite or seek revenge instead of entering into an argument and struggling against incorrect views for the sake of unity or progress or getting the work done properly. This is a fifth type of liberalism. What is this word salad.
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Jan 8, 2022 00:55
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Nenonen posted:What is this word salad. For some reason this user's quoting Mao as a zinger; it's appeared from them in a couple threads. https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm
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Jan 8, 2022 01:04
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Nenonen posted:What is this word salad. Its a Mao quote: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm Doctor Malaver posted:Not that it matters much, but Stalin was IMO the worse of the two. Hitler was lawful evil and his evil system had clear enemies and rules an average citizen could play by. Stalin's rule devoured (in addition to regular enemies) his own allies, military commanders, artists, and entirely random people. It was a paranoid hell with no rhyme or reason, from which Russia still carries an unseen burden. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 01:04
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Nenonen posted:What is this word salad.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:05
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Grouchio posted:Pragmatism? I wouldn't call admiring mad dictators pragmatic.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:07
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Nenonen posted:I wouldn't call admiring mad dictators pragmatic.
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Jan 8, 2022 01:22
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Jan 8, 2022 02:03
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Man the Vermin slav relatively more evil than the ubermensch Has someone been unironically reading der stummer again
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Jan 8, 2022 02:34
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Wow 50 new posts since yesterday! The situation in Kazakhstan must be spiraling out o..... 
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Jan 8, 2022 02:47
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Budzilla posted:Wow 50 new posts since yesterday! The situation in Kazakhstan must be spiraling out o..... Tokayev is lawful neutral, so we’re waiting for a game master to clarify if steppefolk need to perform a 2d6 goalpost roll, failing which results in a Hitler allegory.
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Jan 8, 2022 03:29
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High level defense US-Russia talks on the 10th, NATO-Russia on the 12th, and OSCE meeting on the 13th. This coincides with the end of the freezing spell that just settled over Ukraine, meaning the ground should be firm enough to mobilize armor.
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Jan 8, 2022 05:01
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Doctor Malaver posted:Not that it matters much, but Stalin was IMO the worse of the two. Hitler was lawful evil and his evil system had clear enemies and rules an average citizen could play by. Stalin's rule devoured (in addition to regular enemies) his own allies, military commanders, artists, and entirely random people. It was a paranoid hell with no rhyme or reason, from which Russia still carries an unseen burden. I can tell you're not Jewish.
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Jan 8, 2022 05:08
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Nazarbayev allegedly has fled the country with his family.
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Jan 8, 2022 05:09
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Nazarbayev allegedly has fled the country with his family. Tokayev taking the opportunity to become the actual leader seems like a likely outcome at this point?
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Jan 8, 2022 05:15
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OddObserver posted:Tokayev taking the opportunity to become the actual leader seems like a likely outcome at this point? I would agree with that. It smelled from that direction even before he removed Nazarbayev from the Security Council and fired his loyalist ministers, but with Russian boots on the ground the only realistic threat to Nazarbayev is Tokayev himself.
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Jan 8, 2022 05:21
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Doctor Malaver posted:Not that it matters much, but Stalin was IMO the worse of the two. Hitler was lawful evil and his evil system had clear enemies and rules an average citizen could play by. Stalin's rule devoured (in addition to regular enemies) his own allies, military commanders, artists, and entirely random people. It was a paranoid hell with no rhyme or reason, from which Russia still carries an unseen burden. nurmie posted:Ah yes, Lawful Evil Hitler, setting up clear rules. I have sympathy for Doctor Malaver here--in America, I was taught that Hitler was the unequivocal bad guy, but anyone doing their share of reading starts finding that there were other evil people. You really do feel like you uncovered some sort of secret that people must know and that it would be cowardly not to attend. There's enough Americans that might even take issue with Stalin's sins that one can bring it up in a class and get pushback. I've transferred that response to other situations. I roll into an discussion like this and people like nurmie are way past recognizing that cruelty--nurmie knows that Stalin is evil and errors in specific contextualization don't line up, but that's not the experience elsewhere. Elsewhere, that Stalin and Hitler are in the same ballpark or even the same league are contentious discussions. So, I can sympathize with the desire to jump in and trying to establish that position. My recommendation is that, in places like this, the audience recognizes that cruelty and its context. Though phrased as disagreement, the posts that take issue disagree in specifics but agree in generality. Don't pursue difference; your audience here agrees with you and recognizes Stalin's cruelty.
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Jan 8, 2022 05:38
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Doctor Malaver posted:Not that it matters much, but Stalin was IMO the worse of the two. Hitler was lawful evil and his evil system had clear enemies and rules an average citizen could play by. Stalin's rule devoured (in addition to regular enemies) his own allies, military commanders, artists, and entirely random people. It was a paranoid hell with no rhyme or reason, from which Russia still carries an unseen burden. Just so we are all on the same page, which one of those guys did this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
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Jan 8, 2022 05:43
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As a bit of some trivia Stalin was a Georgian, not a slav, also people over here hate Lavrentiy Beria way more than Stalin
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Jan 8, 2022 06:25
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Speaking of resisting foreign invasions by Russia-aligned powers,
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Jan 8, 2022 09:08
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That was a bad post, especially the lawful evil part. Sorry! My grandmother and grandfather were killed by fascists, one of them in a concentration camp. A hundred meters from where I'm sitting right now, fascist executed thousands in 1942. I believe I know enough about the history of nazism (including the night of the long knives) both from family history and education. Everybody does, right? What I'm not sure is that people are equally aware that Stalin's regime killed by conservative accounts as many people as the Holocaust. I will take piL's advice that at least in this thread people do know that and will drop the attempts at comparison.
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Jan 8, 2022 09:26
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Doctor Malaver posted:That was a bad post, especially the lawful evil part. Sorry!
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Jan 8, 2022 09:40
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khwarezm posted:From a brutal realpolitik perspective there was a certain sense in Stalin allowing the Western Allies and the Nazis to duke it out while the Soviets remained neutral and consolidated its borders in the East while also building up their war making capacity. The problem for Stalin was that it didn't degenerate into a replay of WW1 on the western front and instead the French just collapsed while the British were thrown off the continent with minimum German losses, which left the Soviets way more vulnerable then anticipated since the Germans could simply concentrate all their power on the showdown both Hitler and Stalin would knew was going to happen at some point. Right, but why do Russia's/USSR's actions merit being seen from a brutal realpolitik perspective while Ukraine's actions are seen from a symbolical/principled standpoint? To tie this in to what the conversation started from, the two events you shared can be analyzed from a realpolitik view (e.g. "the Odessa tragedy prevented war and destruction like in Donbass" and the other is symbolic and realpolitikally irrelevant) and Stalin's actions can be seen from a symbolic/value perspective ("allying with nazis is unjustifiable"). You can consistently apply either to both actors, so why do the double standards apply when evaluating both?
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Jan 8, 2022 10:31
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Nazarbayev allegedly has fled the country with his family. he is also still allegedly (according to his own PR person) still in the country, and in support of Tokayev! https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/1479751093324242944 there was one "has fled" story from some minor Russian media source yesterday, but it seemed like they were the only ones reporting it
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Jan 8, 2022 11:27
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I don't know if he's fled, just poorly or something else, but it's very clear that if everything was fine, the father of the nation would have recorded an address to his loyal subjects.
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Jan 8, 2022 11:36
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Doctor Malaver posted:That was a bad post, especially the lawful evil part. Sorry! I actually don't know. What are the numbers killed by Stalin's regime? You said there was no rhyme or reason under Stalin's rule, how do you think they were able to catch up with the US after enduring massive losses in their victory over the Nazis under such a system? Also, what do you think of mpreg pornography?
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Jan 8, 2022 11:37
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is that a genre or a video format
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Jan 8, 2022 11:38
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And why is it here?
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Jan 8, 2022 11:44
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Doctor Malaver posted:That was a bad post, especially the lawful evil part. Sorry! Equating the Ukrainian famine to the Nazi’s deliberate extermination of the Jews through mass murder is essentially Holocaust denial
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Jan 8, 2022 11:46
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:And why is it here? Probably reference to this https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=3788502&pagenumber=367&perpage=40#post520395179
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Jan 8, 2022 11:53
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