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ZeeBoi posted:Erin O'Toole: accommodate the unvaccinated "Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos says vaccination remains the only way out of the pandemic" I fail to see how this can be said with a straight face. It took less than a year for a variant to emerge that largely escaped existing vaccines. There is nothing to stop this happening again. Existing vaccine mandates were a policy implemented to do exactly this, to get us out of the pandemic. This policy failed. Vaccines save lives but they are not going to stop the pandemic.
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Jan 8, 2022 13:22
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https://twitter.com/Billius27/status/1479495356589260800 Piss off with your doomer bullshit trolling Count Roland
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Jan 8, 2022 13:47
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Powershift posted:I went to Canadian tire for the first time in over a year for some stuff to fix my furnace. Holy poo poo is that depressing. empty shelves, maybe 3-4 customers in the store, some creepy music playing at half speed, aisles with products spread out as thinly as they could be to make the shelves look full. Our local Shoppers is like this now. The essentials are still represented, but they've given up trying to make the shelves look full. "I have fewer choices at retail, and contact with scarcity" isn't a life-altering complaint, but yeah, as symptoms of bigger things go it's not a great sign
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Jan 8, 2022 15:10
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I don't think that was doomer bullshit trolling. Count Roland's post seems pretty much in line with the science table data to me: "Vaccines save lives but they are not going to stop the pandemic" seems accurate when Omicron's spread through a mostly vaccinated population is ten times what Delta's was through a mostly unvaccinated population (basing this on this science table graph in particular). It seems pretty clear that the vaccines are saving lives even versus Omicron, but also that vaccination alone will not end the pandemic because Omicron spreads even through a vaccinated population. The easy response is to say that vaccination could end the pandemic because if everyone is vaccinated than severe outcomes are minimized and we move to an endemic disease instead of a pandemic one, but that's only true for certain groups of the population. Disabled and immunocompromised people, children too young to get vaccinated, and others who cannot make use of the protection vaccines provide will be at risk forever, which means the pandemic will not end for them if our only solution is vaccination. And what we saw with Omicron could happen again: given its insane spread and case numbers higher than we've ever seen before, I would be hesitant to say that there's no chance for Omicron to mutate again into a new variant that might be more dangerous or more vaccine evasive. Even if the chance is smaller because a new variant might have to outcompete Omicron in transmissibility (though maybe not, if its evolutionary advantage was, for instance, evading immunity from previous Omicron infection), the sky-high worldwide case numbers give it so many chances to mutate that I would never say it's impossible. I don't know if there is a better solution by this point, unfortunately. Frankly I think it's too late for a zero Covid policy, which with the benefit of hindsight looks like the only sane response in the first place. Case levels are too high, vaccination no longer prevents spread, lots of people just won't comply with stringent public health measures anymore, and countries with whom Canada shares high levels of trade and travel will never do a zero Covid policy so even if we tried it would likely be impossible to maintain. By this point our best bet might be hoping that somebody develops a unicorn long-lasting pan-coronavirus vaccine that prevents both severe illness and infection, and then hope to reach herd immunity by vaccinating everyone who isn't immunocompromised with it, but even that might be out of reach given the combination of antivax sentiment and public health fatigue (anecdotally, I know people who are now triple-vaccinated and have been more or less trying to comply with public health measures, but are getting fed up with all of it and saying they don't want to keep getting booster shots every 3-6 months).
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Jan 8, 2022 15:25
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Yeah my brother is at that point. He’ll do boosters if and when it’s required to participate in public life, and he’ll wear a mask, but otherwise he’s done with going any further than that. He’s a perfectly healthy mid 20s man who spent the last two years largely isolating, so I get where he’s coming from.
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Jan 8, 2022 15:36
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Pleads posted:Canadian Tires around here have tried to cram about 50% more stock into the same size stores and now every aisle is this narrow, too-tall chasm of oppression. It's a real claustrophobic kinda vibe. Yeah, months ago we went by a Canadian Tire. I can't remember for what. Anyhow, it was absolutely packed full of stock. It was complete chaos. Every aisle was down to the width of less than a cart, you could not manoeuvre anywhere. Stuff was stacked 20 feet high, total madness.
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Jan 8, 2022 15:52
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It was always a mistake to use the vaccines (which were exceptionally good on the level of practically being miraculous, compared to early estimates of how effective a vaccine could be against COVID, and now with omicron are simply "very good") as the one and only tool to control/eliminate the pandemic. Even pre-omicron, there were breakthrough cases with Delta. It was a mistake to eliminate masking in public spaces and act as if double-vaccination conferred perfect protection, and it would have been/still is a good idea to continue with NPIs. The failure of people to understand the difference between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition seems to be the real sticking point. And now, with testing overwhelmed and omicron running rampant, it's probably too late to do much of anything and there's not much to do except wait for the wave to hit and recede. I can't blame people who are paranoid and won't send their kids to school and are trying to isolate as much as humanly possible (that's me!) and equally I can't really blame the people who say, "gently caress it, we're all going to get it at this point, I'm vaxxed and boosted, why put myself out?" Those are both reasonable positions that a reasonable person could take, even if they're essentially the opposite of one another. What I really object to is the government saying "no, only one of those positions is reasonable. Anyone who can work from home should do so, but if you're non-essential but unable to work from home, you should still go to work as normal, and if you're essential AND unable to work from home, gently caress you, we're going to do even less to protect you by reducing isolation requirements for people who are ill."
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Jan 8, 2022 15:59
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When the unvaxxed plague rats are the majority of hospitalizations loving things up then shut the gently caress up about not vaccinating our way out of this. Cause it’s all we have right now. Also gently caress your brother. He’s a moron.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:01
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I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "we're not able to vaccinate our way out of this." It's true, we cannot vaccinate our way out of this situation. It's also true that absolutely everyone able to take the vaccine, should be compelled to receive it, because it's necessary that as many people as possible are vaccinated even if it's not sufficient.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:09
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Vintersorg posted:When the unvaxxed plague rats are the majority of hospitalizations loving things up then shut the gently caress up about not vaccinating our way out of this. Cause it’s all we have right now. Some of us not only are ethically uncomfortable with "let the impure die," but are further worried about the consequences of "it's acceptable if people we don't like die" becoming (more) standard operating procedure going forwards.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:11
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Hand Knit posted:Some of us not only are ethically uncomfortable with "let the impure die," but are further worried about the consequences of "it's acceptable if people we don't like die" becoming (more) standard operating procedure going forwards. If we're not okay with letting anti-vaxxers die, then it's morally acceptable to compel them to be vaccinated. That's the tradeoff we have here. Saying "you have free choice whether or not to get vaccinated" is fundamentally no different than saying "we don't really care if you die, we will not use the single most effective tool available to us to stop it."
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Jan 8, 2022 16:14
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Hand Knit posted:Some of us not only are ethically uncomfortable with "let the impure die," but are further worried about the consequences of "it's acceptable if people we don't like die" becoming (more) standard operating procedure going forwards. Enjoy staying inside then as it's only gonna get worse while our hospitals fill up and healthcare workers, teachers and more burn out from people thinking they know better based on memes. Those poor anti-vaxxers abloo bloo bloo. 
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Jan 8, 2022 16:19
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Right now, Canadian Tire stores are getting ready for their changeover to the spring/summer assortment. In a couple weeks, they’ll start receiving all their BBQ, patio, sports, gardening and outdoor tools products so they usually run their inventory lean after Christmas to prepare. The stores are franchised so they don’t want to be stuck carrying stock they can’t sell for another year. I know the stores have ordered all this stuff like crazy so any bare shelves for seasonal products in the next couple months are going to be due to suppliers not able to produce on time the massive amounts of inventory that’s been ordered and the challenges in getting the space on ocean vessels to move it all. When it comes to the stuff CT sells, the supply chain challenges are almost totally due to increased demand from customers and not being able to chase it (plus a hesitation to actually forecast sales to be above the record highs of the previous year the last 2 years and buy accordingly) rather than difficulties in manufacturing.
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Jan 8, 2022 16:24
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https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/conversion-therapy-is-now-illegal-in-canada-1.5731911quote:OTTAWA -- Conversion therapy is now illegal in Canada, marking a major milestone in LGBTQ2S+ rights in this country.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:06
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Oxyclean posted:https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/conversion-therapy-is-now-illegal-in-canada-1.5731911 Arivia's posted about it a number of times, but not recently. IIRC she mentioned some remaining issues with the language of the bill, but I don't know if those were addressed before it was passed.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:12
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https://twitter.com/cspotweet/status/1479656201684021249?s=21 Guess it was accurate, then.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:12
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Hand Knit posted:Some of us not only are ethically uncomfortable with "let the impure die," but are further worried about the consequences of "it's acceptable if people we don't like die" becoming (more) standard operating procedure going forwards. This is sophistry.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:13
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Bleck posted:This is sophistry. It's really not, especially when you look at how Canada has treated elderly and disabled people, the other people who are de facto acceptable casualties, throughout the pandemic. Antivaxers IMO deserve only the barest minimum of sympathy and respect, but the problem is that the practices applied to them are like as not to be generalized.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:17
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PT6A posted:https://twitter.com/cspotweet/status/1479656201684021249?s=21 I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't doubt that the image was of a forecast that exists. I was expressing skepticism about the accuracy of the forecast, based solely on the last two years of similarly dire forecasts that have presented scenarios that haven't quite come to pass. I can absolutely accept that Alberta has dug themselves such a hole that they'll be stacking patients like cord wood until such time as the ground thaws sufficiently for mass graves.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:20
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The issue is that the anti-vaxxers and those who stridently campaign against the imposition of NPIs are the ones putting people with disabilities and complex medical conditions at risk. So you're right: we should not "stop caring about their lives," we should rather absolutely loving insist that they get vaccinated and follow reasonable NPIs to protect the population, whether they want to or not.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:20
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Cease to Hope posted:It's really not, especially when you look at how Canada has treated elderly and disabled people, the other people who are de facto acceptable casualties, throughout the pandemic. It's spurious to summarize 'the people who are choosing to continuously exacerbate the pandemic because they're too stupid to understand the consequences of their actions, thereby leading to continuous and widespread death and suffering' as 'people we don't like' and/or 'the impure'. Imagine if someone kept starting fires in your town and someone responded to the suggestion that people should stop them from starting fires with "okay but we can't force people to do things just because we don't like them."
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Jan 8, 2022 17:36
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They should be forced to get vaccinated, but if they're not it would be better if they die quickly at home so as not to use up precious medical resources better spent on those who don't share their harmful and detestable beliefs.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:39
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large hands posted:They should be forced to get vaccinated, but if they're not it would be better if they die quickly at home so as not to use up precious medical resources better spent on those who don't share their harmful and detestable beliefs. And people will say "oh, what about smokers and alcoholics?" Yes, as soon as a wave of smoking-related disease turns transmissible, grows exponentially and pushes the healthcare system to the brink, loving deprioritize smokers. If there's an exponentially-growing wave of alcohol poisoning that's somehow getting healthcare workers so drunk they themselves cannot work, deprioritize that too. That's completely fair! It's also impossible, so we don't have to worry about that eventuality.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:44
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The one person I know who isn't vaxxed is a family member who is drug addict with mental issues. I'm sure there are a few people in this country who think he should be dead, and not necessarily because he is unvaxxed.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:47
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There's a small number of people who can't get vaccinated that get lumped into this too. Sure, they can get medical exemptions, but as soon as you open those doors, there's going to be those bleeding-heart doctors—that don't agree with denying care to the unvaccinated—handing out fake or dubious exemptions to people so they can still get treatment. I agree that willfully unvaccinated patients should be kept away from care (they obviously trust russian spambots more than doctors), but that system is going to be challenging to enforce. mom and dad fight a lot fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 17:50
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So Quebec announced that you'll soon need to be vaccinated in order to access government liquor and marijuana stores. First doses are up to 6000/day.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:53
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Madkal posted:The one person I know who isn't vaxxed is a family member who is drug addict with mental issues. I'm sure there are a few people in this country who think he should be dead, and not necessarily because he is unvaxxed. The odd thing is that that person could be arrested and sent to jail for their drug use, on the basis that it's a danger to themselves and to the community at large, but they could not be mandated to receive a vaccination. It's a clear double-standard, and a really stupid one. Allowing people who aren't in their right mind, or who cannot meaningfully make a decision about the risks vs. benefits of vaccination, to go without lifesaving medical treatment under the guise of freedom seems bizarre to me. That person -- every person -- deserves the protection of a COVID vaccination whether or not they believe that to be the case.
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Jan 8, 2022 17:53
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Tobacco and alcohol are also addictive, whereas anti-vaxx sentiment... well, I suppose a demonic advocate could argue that it's on par with video game addiction if it's social media-induced. (that would also argue for stronger anti-misinformation measures)
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Jan 8, 2022 17:54
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I don't like mandatory vaccination for general population, but I also don't care about it being a job requirement This is also good PittTheElder posted:So Quebec announced that you'll soon need to be vaccinated in order to access government liquor and marijuana stores. First doses are up to 6000/day. Don't mandate everyone to have it, just make it as loving awkward to live in our society as you can. Don't want to be part of society? Fine, you don't get any of the good bits of it either
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Jan 8, 2022 17:56
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mom and dad fight a lot posted:There's a small number of people who can't get vaccinated that get lumped into this too. Unless they start spouting off about Bill Gates and the Great Reset or w/e I don't think they're likely to get confused with the anti-vaxxers we're talking about. Half you guys seem to think it's a slippery slope from saying "punch proud boys" to "punch homeless people"
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Jan 8, 2022 17:58
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PT6A posted:The odd thing is that that person could be arrested and sent to jail for their drug use, on the basis that it's a danger to themselves and to the community at large, but they could not be mandated to receive a vaccination. It's a clear double-standard, and a really stupid one. Oh I absolutely agree. He has no fixed home address and sometimes stays with his mom. A few weeks ago he got sick and passed it on to his mom which really pissed me off but the family will tell you that it isn't his fault because of his addiction. I'm just saying that hoping for the death for the unvaxxed is a big net to cast out and it isn't just a bunch of middle class shitheads protesting outside of hospitals who would get caught in that net.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:00
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Hoping for the death of people in general is really hosed up.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:05
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large hands posted:Unless they start spouting off about Bill Gates and the Great Reset or w/e I don't think they're likely to get confused with the anti-vaxxers we're talking about. I kinda disagree for the reasons I mentioned. I think it would be hard to protect the integrity of who is truly "vaccine exempt", which kind of ruins the system. Unless we get something more robust in place (an exemption review board?). That being said, if you don't trust proven preventative medicine in a time that we really need everyone to take it, then you don't deserve the emergency care that you'll need later as a result.
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Jan 8, 2022 18:11
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Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 18:36
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Can we get a definitive list of which illnesses and medical issues caused by stupidity also don't deserve treatment
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Jan 8, 2022 18:59
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I'll start: people who don't wear seatbelts
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Jan 8, 2022 19:00
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In addition to being fed up with them, I feel sorry for antivaxxers because I think they have been legitimately let down by some combination of our substandard education system and probably bad parenting, but not anywhere near the extent that I feel sorry for immunocompromised people and children who would like to get vaccinated but can't. Forget about antivaxxers for a moment and think about what it is like to be an immunocompromised person who cannot get a vaccine for medical reasons and is therefore just as susceptible to serious Covid as they were in March 2020, if not more so because of the fragile state of their body. When we say "we're ending the pandemic through vaccinations and only vaccinations, everybody get your shot" in response to a variant that spreads nearly as easily among vaccinated as unvaccinated people, the message we are sending to the immunocompromised is "hope you're fine with never leaving your house again, because anyone you interact with, vaccinated or unvaccinated, might kill you without even realizing it." We can mandate vaccinations for everybody, even antivaxxers, and then accept that Omicron is going to spread forever, and declare the pandemic over, but we do so at the cost of forbidding some of the most vulnerable people in our society from ever getting to live a normal life again.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:08
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I wouldn't say "no medical care for anti vaxxers" rather I'd say triage them if hospitals are full, similar to not handing out liver transplants to alcoholics unless everyone else has already been helped.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:10
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vyelkin posted:an immunocompromised person who cannot get a vaccine for medical reasons Immunocompromised people can almost always get vaccinated, it just doesn't do all that much. They generally can't have live virus vaccines, but I don't think any of the COVID vaccines are live virus ones (certainly not anything you can get in Canada). quote:When we say "we're ending the pandemic through vaccinations and only vaccinations, everybody get your shot" in response to a variant that spreads nearly as easily among vaccinated as unvaccinated people, the message we are sending to the immunocompromised is "hope you're fine with never leaving your house again, because anyone you interact with, vaccinated or unvaccinated, might kill you without even realizing it." But yes, this loving sucks. enki42 fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 19:12
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enki42 posted:Immunocompromised people can almost always get vaccinated, it just doesn't do all that much. They generally can't have live virus vaccines, but I don't think any of the COVID vaccines are live virus ones (certainly not anything you can get in Canada). Yeah I have no idea where the whole "immunocompromised people can't get COVID vaccines" talking point came from considering the recommendation has consistently been for them to get an early booster shot of the vaccine. The only actual valid medical exemptions for the mRNA vaccines are a polyethylene glycol allergy or a prior case of myocarditis from the first shot and now that there's a (small) supply of J&J even that isn't really an excuse.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:16
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