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Judakel posted:I find it odd that people in China feel that they live in a more democratic society than the US and yet we're sitting here talking about how they live in an awful dictatorship. i suspect certain groups of people in China just might not feel quite this way. also, i'm pretty sure this is a thread about Eastern Europe, not China so, to bring it back to Eastern Europe: how does the thread feel about the current state of the Lithuania - China trade war?
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Jan 8, 2022 19:15
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nurmie posted:i suspect certain groups of people in China just might not feel quite this way. also, i'm pretty sure this is a thread about Eastern Europe, not China They might not, but the majority does. The implication was obvious so I addressed it directly.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:19
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Judakel posted:I find it odd that people in China feel that they live in a more democratic society than the US and yet we're sitting here talking about how they live in an awful dictatorship. lmao
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Jan 8, 2022 19:29
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Dreissi posted:Also fun to think about what Hitler would’ve done to the former USSR had he won. The genocide of people like slavs and other non-Germans to the Volga would have been unspeakable. They were literally planning and theorizing about how to do that, that's the idea with Generalplan Ost.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:34
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Judakel posted:They might not, but the majority does. The implication was obvious so I addressed it directly. I'm sorry this is the Eastern Europe thread, not the China one. If you'd like to continue doing things you apparently enjoy, like defending the Chinese government over the raped tennis player, you should take it to the appropriate thread.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:40
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Judakel posted:I find it odd that people in China feel that they live in a more democratic society than the US and yet we're sitting here talking about how they live in an awful dictatorship. Dunno, might have something to do with most Chinese people getting their only information about the US from censored internet sources and state propaganda channels, which are barely one step above tankie Twitter rambling about how the US is the most corrupt, undemocratic and evil nation on earth, in terms of nuance e: ,but I'm not an expert
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Jan 8, 2022 19:44
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Wait a second, these polls I'm reading are telling me that Lion Assad 100% embodies the will of the Syrian people and is a god among men Sure, I believe that everything in western media is pure lie, but my brain worms have also convinced me that anything not in western media is divine scripture bestowed upon mortals directly from the heavens and must be accepted uncritically as though read by a toddler steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 19:49
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You guys are right. Such views of America are pretty far-fetched and I need to do some unskewing of the polls. Thank you.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:52
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Judakel posted:You guys are right. Such views of America are pretty far-fetched and I need to do some unskewing of the polls. Thank you. remind me again why do you insist on talking about china and america in a thread about Eastern Europe
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Jan 8, 2022 19:53
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Judakel posted:You guys are right. Such views of America are pretty far-fetched and I need to do some unskewing of the polls. Thank you. I've heard that Kim Jong Il once moved a mountain using his will alone to make room for a railway track, those North Koreans are lucky to have such a great leader! nurmie posted:remind me again why do you insist on talking about china and america in a thread about Eastern Europe Because in the mind of Americans every discussion must be steered towards relitigating their stupid political anxieties, and if it isn't tied to the same circular "debate" over whether America is the greatest place on earth, or the worst place on earth, it's not worth having. Probably something in the water that causes that. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 19:53
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Judakel posted:You guys are right. Such views of America are pretty far-fetched and I need to do some unskewing of the polls. Thank you. This thread is also not about the United States of America.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:54
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nurmie posted:remind me again why do you insist on talking about china and america in a thread about Eastern Europe Nenonen was the one who started the discussion on liberal democracies and dictatorships.
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Jan 8, 2022 19:58
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I'm sure there's a map somewhere on the internet claiming both America and China are historical parts of Greater Serbia and therefore Eastern Europe 
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Jan 8, 2022 19:59
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So anyway, about Kazakhstan - what's the position of Karim Massimov in relation to the government? What did he do to get arrested for treason? What is the status of Nazarbayev?
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Jan 8, 2022 20:04
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Judakel posted:Nenonen was the one who started the discussion on liberal democracies and dictatorships. and i'm sure that China and America are the only dictatorship and liberal democracy in existence that are somehow relevant to the topic of Eastern Europe
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Jan 8, 2022 20:06
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nurmie posted:and i'm sure that China and America are the only dictatorship and liberal democracy in existence that are somehow relevant to the topic of Eastern Europe If usage of the two most common examples bothers you that much then engage with nenonen's query.
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Jan 8, 2022 20:09
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nurmie posted:so, to bring it back to Eastern Europe: how does the thread feel about the current state of the Lithuania - China trade war? Lithuanians have successfully managed to piss of the rest of EU, by the look of it, so now we get to spectate Nauseda vs the government of Lithuania.
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Jan 8, 2022 20:11
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Judakel posted:You guys are right. Such views of America are pretty far-fetched and I need to do some unskewing of the polls. Thank you. My friend, if you believe in the concept of words having any kind of meaning then no, the US is not less democratic than China. By definition of the word democracy. No matter what Chinese people believe to be true or not. If I was in your position I would step back for a day or two from whatever information bubble you are stuck in and reexamine what the gently caress it is doing to your brain and connection to objective reality and if it's really healthy fore you and where all of this is going mid to long term
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Jan 8, 2022 20:15
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Judakel posted:If usage of the two most common examples bothers you that much then engage with nenonen's query. We have our own dictatorships and liberal democracies in Eastern Europe, thanks. Nenonen posted:So anyway, about Kazakhstan - what's the position of Karim Massimov in relation to the government? What did he do to get arrested for treason? What is the status of Nazarbayev? Masimov is a senior Nazarbayev lieutenant, which to me is another piece of the puzzle in favour of Dear Leader Tokayev as the factual outcome of the recent events.
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Jan 8, 2022 20:17
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steinrokkan posted:lmao General thread reminder to avoid empty-quoting, one-word, or otherwise white noise posting.
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Jan 8, 2022 20:40
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steinrokkan posted:Probably something in the water that causes that. Not enough root vegetables in the salads.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:35
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What's wrong with Anne Applebaum? I read her book on the Gulag Archipelago and thought it was pretty well written and researched. I haven't read anything else by her though, her books are dense enough that I had trouble getting through that one with my ADHD. In my Soviet history program at school she was considered one of the foremost historians for that field. Would be interested in hearing criticism of her work by people here who would have a more personal perspective based on lived experience and family oral history (which is every bit as valid for primary sourcing as other contemporary records)
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Jan 8, 2022 21:53
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Oh no, he did it now. https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1479914590750363654 This is just what Russia needs with upcoming Ukraine talks.
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Jan 8, 2022 21:53
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Oh no, he did it now. Russia gets mad like that if you even look at them sideways, especially if the jokes are based in reality
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Jan 8, 2022 22:09
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HonorableTB posted:What's wrong with Anne Applebaum? I read her book on the Gulag Archipelago and thought it was pretty well written and researched. I haven't read anything else by her though, her books are dense enough that I had trouble getting through that one with my ADHD. In my Soviet history program at school she was considered one of the foremost historians for that field. Would be interested in hearing criticism of her work by people here who would have a more personal perspective based on lived experience and family oral history (which is every bit as valid for primary sourcing as other contemporary records) I thought that book (Gulag: A History) was good as such and well referenced. Although her perspective and background as an American journalist came through quite a bit. Which is understandable as it's a single volume popular representation of a lot of history and fates, rather than an academic study. It gives you an understanding of what was going on, but you have to understand that it's kind of like if a Russian wrote a popular history book about some bits of US history. At some point you have to condense things so much that you have to choose which bits are interesting and of value to the audience. And your audience probably likes detailed personal accounts rather than dry telling akin to David M. Glantz who is another type of historian, one who is not going to make best sellers but is good at counting the beans and delivering the whole picture without emotion or partiality. But yeah, I found it a very good read and would recommend. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jan 8, 2022 |
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Jan 8, 2022 22:41
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Here's what Blinken said, since for some reason the tweet author decided not to include the very short quote. Gotta get those clicks, I guess.quote:"One lesson of recent history is that once Russians are in your house, it's sometimes very difficult to get them to leave,"
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Jan 8, 2022 22:48
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I can attest, having housed some Russians at my home (including two lovely babushkas who made me a wonderful breakfast), that it was not difficult to get them out. I still wouldn't borrow my couch to a former KGB officer.
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Jan 8, 2022 23:00
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Nenonen posted:I can attest, having housed some Russians at my home (including two lovely babushkas who made me a wonderful breakfast), that it was not difficult to get them out. Especially if he offers to make tea.
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Jan 8, 2022 23:17
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Notice the west isn't speaking on Kazakhstan much at all and is still handing out platitudes about protecting Ukraine.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:22
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Notice the west isn't speaking on Kazakhstan much at all and is still handing out platitudes about protecting Ukraine. Weird that this would be the case, when Kazakhstan borders NATO/EU members such as China, Uzbekistan, and Kygyzstan.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:24
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Let's give NATO membership to Tajikistan just to see what happens
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Jan 9, 2022 00:28
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Grape posted:Weird that this would be the case, when Kazakhstan borders NATO/EU members such as China, Uzbekistan, and Kygyzstan. It's not that. Its the fact that we are complaining about Russian aggression. They do an actively aggressive maneuver by aiding a dictator stay in power and we say zero. While geographically both conflicts are far away, there should at least be strong words condemning the conflict even if nothing else is done.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:28
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:It's not that. Its the fact that we are complaining about Russian aggression. They do an actively aggressive maneuver by aiding a dictator stay in power and we say zero. While geographically both conflicts are far away, there should at least be strong words condemning the conflict even if nothing else is done. Both conflicts aren't "far", one of the conflicts is right on top of some of the NATO states. Kazakhstan has always been ruled by tyrants with ties to Russia, there's not much that can be done, and nothing that can be threatened is credible, even less so than with Ukraine - or rather, what would you want to see done in this case?
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Jan 9, 2022 00:31
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Imperialism is bad no matter who does it. It's equally as bad for Russia to be doing what they're doing in Ukraine as it was for the US to do the same sphere of influence poo poo in Central and South America, which is ALSO still ongoing. The Monroe Doctrine and Roosevelt Corollary are still in effect and we have no qualms about couping leaders we don't like in the Americas. Or just outright invading them, like Panama and Grenada. I don't think it would change anything, though, if the US were to stop doing it because it's not like moral high ground provides any kind of power projection or ability to stop Russia, nor would Russia ever agree to do it anyway. Putin would probably just think the US is trying to speedrun itself out of existence by voluntarily giving up superpower status in that case and it'd embolden him further.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:39
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HonorableTB posted:Imperialism is bad no matter who does it. It's equally as bad for Russia to be doing what they're doing in Ukraine as it was for the US to do the same sphere of influence poo poo in Central and South America, which is ALSO still ongoing. The Monroe Doctrine and Roosevelt Corollary are still in effect and we have no qualms about couping leaders we don't like in the Americas. Or just outright invading them, like Panama and Grenada. I don't think it would change anything, though, if the US were to stop doing it because it's not like moral high ground provides any kind of power projection or ability to stop Russia, nor would Russia ever agree to do it anyway. Putin would probably just think the US is trying to speedrun itself out of existence by voluntarily giving up superpower status in that case and it'd embolden him further. Yet it is interesting that the same people go screaming "Imperialism' Death to America" (and rightly so) whenever the US tries their poo poo in LA, but then turn around and say "These people are too savage to rule themselves, they need to be ruled by the iron fist of an imperial overlord" when it comes to literally any other global region.
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Jan 9, 2022 00:43
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Notice the west isn't speaking on Kazakhstan much at all and is still handing out platitudes about protecting Ukraine. what is it going to do, release a statement to the effect of "we condemn the CSTO, of which Kazakhstan is a member state, deploying troops to Kazakhstan at the direct request of the president of Kazakhstan"?
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Jan 9, 2022 02:04
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Nenonen posted:I thought that book (Gulag: A History) was good as such and well referenced. Although her perspective and background as an American journalist came through quite a bit. Which is understandable as it's a single volume popular representation of a lot of history and fates, rather than an academic study. It gives you an understanding of what was going on, but you have to understand that it's kind of like if a Russian wrote a popular history book about some bits of US history. At some point you have to condense things so much that you have to choose which bits are interesting and of value to the audience. And your audience probably likes detailed personal accounts rather than dry telling akin to David M. Glantz who is another type of historian, one who is not going to make best sellers but is good at counting the beans and delivering the whole picture without emotion or partiality. Do you or any other thread regulars have any good suggestions for books on the soviet gulag/forced labor system? Preferably not by americans, but that's not at all a hard line in the sand
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Jan 9, 2022 03:54
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Notice the west isn't speaking on Kazakhstan much at all and is still handing out platitudes about protecting Ukraine. I think that it would be smart of Western leaders to not start talking aggressively about Kazakhstan since there's already such a tense situation in Ukraine and the Russians are likely feeling increasingly fearful about their foreign interests falling away from them and getting surrounded by hostile forces. Already on twitter I'm seeing lots of theories that its a CIA organized colour revolution.
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Jan 9, 2022 04:59
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Do you or any other thread regulars have any good suggestions for books on the soviet gulag/forced labor system? Preferably not by americans, but that's not at all a hard line in the sand Not a history per se, but I highly recommend Alexander Solzhenitsyn's "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich". Solzhenitsyn was a gulag prisoner himself and this book was written using many of his own experiences. I also recommend Varlam Salamnov's "Kolyma Tales". For an actual historical work, I recommend Oleg Khlevniuk's "The History of the Gulag: From Collectivization to the Great Terror" Edit: These should all be available in English as well, if you don't speak Russian
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Jan 9, 2022 05:13
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steinrokkan posted:I've heard that Kim Jong Il once moved a mountain using his will alone to make room for a railway track, those North Koreans are lucky to have such a great leader! Leaded gasoline until the '80s...
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Jan 9, 2022 05:22
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