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Not that I approve everybody ignoring Kazakhstan, but everything is so confusing, first Tokayev says "pls stop, we will listen to the will of the people" than 2 days later "I gave orders to shoot without warning". Shoot who and for what transgression? Being outside? He said order was restored and immediately invites foreign troops. What we know for a fact is 1. Tokayev used this to overthrow Nazarbayev, 2. They are still killing each other. The crew of Russian opposition channel Dozhd say they were fired upon by russian speaking military who wore no insignias.
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Jan 9, 2022 06:13
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khwarezm posted:Already on twitter I'm seeing lots of theories that its a CIA organized colour revolution. Well that convinced me. The dastardly West antagonizing plucky Russia
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Jan 9, 2022 11:34
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How are u posted:Here's what Blinken said, since for some reason the tweet author decided not to include the very short quote. Gotta get those clicks, I guess. As much as I disagree with the CSTO intervention, poo poo like this is why noone should take the USA seriously. How many countries does the USA have troops in right now? At least a dozen?
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Jan 9, 2022 11:46
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Not So Fast posted:As much as I disagree with the CSTO intervention, poo poo like this is why noone should take the USA seriously. How many countries does the USA have troops in right now? At least a dozen?
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Jan 9, 2022 12:15
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Not So Fast posted:As much as I disagree with the CSTO intervention, poo poo like this is why noone should take the USA seriously. How many countries does the USA have troops in right now? At least a dozen? In terms of countries where they weren't invited it's just Syria rn afaict, so Russia is kinda ahead depending on how you count Ossetia E: sorry for talking about America in the EE thread 
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Jan 9, 2022 13:03
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Nenonen posted:I thought that book (Gulag: A History) was good as such and well referenced. Although her perspective and background as an American journalist came through quite a bit. Which is understandable as it's a single volume popular representation of a lot of history and fates, rather than an academic study. It gives you an understanding of what was going on, but you have to understand that it's kind of like if a Russian wrote a popular history book about some bits of US history. At some point you have to condense things so much that you have to choose which bits are interesting and of value to the audience. And your audience probably likes detailed personal accounts rather than dry telling akin to David M. Glantz who is another type of historian, one who is not going to make best sellers but is good at counting the beans and delivering the whole picture without emotion or partiality. Applebaum isn't a historian is the main issue, and blindly accepts the national framework in her book on the Ukrainian famine at least. https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/2203 FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 13:07
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Good news everyone! Turkmenistan's Gurby Berdy swears to close the portal whence Kazakhstan's terrorist protestors came.quote:The president of Turkmenistan is calling for an end to one of the country’s most notable but infernal sights — the blazing natural gas crater widely referred to as the "Gateway to Hell". https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-09/turkmenistan-leader-wants-gates-of-hell-fire-put-out/100746276
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Jan 9, 2022 13:54
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Nenonen posted:Good news everyone! Turkmenistan's Gurby Berdy swears to close the portal whence Kazakhstan's terrorist protestors came. why don't they just nuke it. worked back in the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kwQfjGnVpw
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Jan 9, 2022 13:56
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FishBulbia posted:Applebaum isn't a historian is the main issue, and blindly accepts the national framework in her book on the Ukrainian famine at least. Not being a historian isn't necessarily the worst knock against the author of a history book, plenty of non-hisotrians, coming from other disciplines and such have written good history books. That review itself isn't as condemnatory as you imply, the reviewer largely thinks her treatment and description of the actual famine is convincing, what he has major issues with is how Applebaum tries to fit it within a historical framework, especially as relating to present day conditions. That review does remind me of an argument presented in the Hungry Steppe, that the question of (whether the Kazakh famine was a) genocide should not obfuscate the fact that it was a crime against humanity where millions experienced unimaginable suffering, that it was not simply miscalculation, there's evidence that the authorities knew and accepted that many would starve. They had sufficient warnings and information about the risks and reality on the ground. When the disaster that unfolded was of a scale that had not been anticipated (or desired), rather than taking steps to alleviate the suffering, the authorities instead took steps that made it worse, closing the borders, blacklisting whole regions and increasing grain and livestock requisition quotas as well as settling tens to hundreds of thousands of additional 'special settlers' into regions that were already experiencing starvation. There are arguments one could make that the Kazakh famine fits a definition of cultural genocide as collectivization really happened alongside a campaign against nomadism and the project of making a Kazakh nation, where Kazakh culture was to be reshaped and aspects of it (like nomadism) destroyed in the process. This is complicated by the active participation of Kazakhs themselves in the local party organizations in both defining and implementing the policies on the ground (furthermore Sarah Cameron, the author, argues that this rather than tempering the violence of the process made it worse as it also allowed local antagonisms to define collectivization, confiscation and "dekulakization" programs). Lastly you should also perhaps consider the implication that the end result of the policies pursued in the late 20s and early 30s was a Kazakh rebublic where the Kazakhs themselves had been reduced to a minority and would remain so until the late 80s. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 13:58
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Randarkman posted:Not being a historian isn't necessarily the worst knock against the author of a history book, plenty of non-hisotrians, coming from other disciplines and such have written good history books. That review itself isn't as condemnatory as you imply, the reviewer largely thinks her treatment and description of the actual famine is convincing, what he has major issues with is how Applebaum tries to fit it within a historical framework, especially as relating to present day conditions. Good post. The tendency to try to fit the story of collectivization into the modern conflict in ukraine is something characteristic of non-historical takes. I'm not into longue durée stories of national struggle, they always smack a little too much of Fichte and wouldn't have made sense to people as little as 5 generations ago. I had a professor in graduate school who essentially would not touch the issue of the famine as genocide or not. Essentially for the reasons you enumerated. For historians, a genocide means an intentional attempt to eliminate the biological substance of an identity, for the public at large, it means killing a lot of people. When historians discuss the collectivization famines as genocide, their question is not whether or not they were undertaken intentionally, but whether or not their goal was the elimination of a certain identity. For the professor I had, the debate was always too political, and the label too irrelevant. It matters little to the emaciated child what exactly the goal of their death is. It's a question worth examining, but one given too much weight due to the contemporary conflict. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 14:27
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khwarezm posted:I think that it would be smart of Western leaders to not start talking aggressively about Kazakhstan since there's already such a tense situation in Ukraine and the Russians are likely feeling increasingly fearful about their foreign interests falling away from them and getting surrounded by hostile forces. Already on twitter I'm seeing lots of theories that its a CIA organized colour revolution. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 14:55
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This is the idea that the US, EU etc. should just not do and say anything that might antagonize dictators like Putin, Xi and everyone who wants to be them, and everything will be fine. Except it won't. Their propaganda will still twist anything you do into a case of "see, the world hates us, we must du everything to defend our great empire" as long as they need to antagonize other countries for political reasons. If you don't say anything, they will invent something. Even if you were to go along with all their wishes, if they need a scapegoat they will materialize one out of thin air. The CIA will always be behind every single perceived threat to the power of dictators who consider themselves in opposition to "western" interests.
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Jan 9, 2022 15:30
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Jan 9, 2022 16:03
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https://twitter.com/TheRReport/status/1480200575597916164 The United States will be going into the upcoming talks with a priori conclusions. quote:“We're going to be able to put things on the table, the Russians will do the same, both directly with us at NATO at the [Organization for Security and Cooperation] and we'll see if they're grounds for moving forward,” he added. quote:Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov earlier on Sunday said it is possible that the talks between the U.S. and Russia break down quickly. He specifically said conversations could end after the first meeting. Both countries plan on making no concessions.
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Jan 9, 2022 16:40
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I’m not sure why we’re pretending that Russia is interested in having a conversation, and any progress on the precariousness of situation with Ukraine could’ve been attained during the upcoming couple of sessions.
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Jan 9, 2022 16:51
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There are a ton of reasons to disregard Applebaum. She's a right wing crank, who associates with far right nationalists in both in the US and Poland. But of the many flaws in her work, probably the worst (wrt Red Famine) is that she deliberately manipulated the data in her book to erase the grain shortage in Ukraine during 1932-3. From a review of the book by Stephen G. Wheatcroft, who incidentally co-authored the seminal book on the Ukrainian famine (Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture 1929–1931):quote:Throughout the early 1930s there was great uncertainty over the level of grain production, as there had been since the First World War. The level of grain production that was officially accepted in the late 1920s and in 1931 and 1932 was already greatly exaggerated, when an attempt was made to objectify harvest evaluation by switching to a system of sample measurements. This produced the so called ‘biological yield’ of grain, which was measured ‘on the stalk’, prior to harvest losses. Harvest losses were normally about 20 to 30 per cent of the crop, but in 1932 they were probably much higher. These harvest losses had to be deducted from the ‘biological yield’ to produce the ‘barn yield’, or the amount of grain available for use. In 1931 and 1932 the level of grain actually available for use was dangerously low. The Soviet government at the time tried to cover up its failure to increase grain production and refused to scale down grain procurements, claiming that more grain was available than was the case. From 1933 to 1954 the official evaluations presented the biological yield figures as though they were barn yield, and consequently exaggerated grain production by 20 to 30 per cent. In 1954 Khrushchev removed the post 1933 biological yield distortions but kept the pre-1933 subjective distortions. You should really read the full review, but in short: if you're willing to put your faith in a "scholar" who engages in this kind of fabrication I think that says a lot.
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Jan 9, 2022 16:57
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FishBulbia posted:When historians discuss the collectivization famines as genocide, their question is whether or not they were undertaken intentionally, but whether or not their goal was the elimination of a certain identity. Thanks for the great posts, y’all- I just think you’re missing a “not” in here.
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Jan 9, 2022 16:58
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Sekenr posted:Not that I approve everybody ignoring Kazakhstan, but everything is so confusing, first Tokayev says "pls stop, we will listen to the will of the people" than 2 days later "I gave orders to shoot without warning". Shoot who and for what transgression? Being outside? He said order was restored and immediately invites foreign troops. What we know for a fact is 1. Tokayev used this to overthrow Nazarbayev, 2. They are still killing each other. The crew of Russian opposition channel Dozhd say they were fired upon by russian speaking military who wore no insignias. I mean everything points to it just straight up being a coup at this point? Fuel prices didn't have to double and he sure was very fast to dismantle government and end Kazakhstans neutrality overnight once the riots started.
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Jan 9, 2022 17:02
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Discendo Vox posted:Thanks for the great posts, y’all- I just think you’re missing a “not” in here. Yes. lol
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Jan 9, 2022 17:03
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https://twitter.com/marinachazm/status/1480149621943017475?s=21 What a lovely part of the world this is
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Jan 9, 2022 17:34
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It really seems the Americans are not serious about these very genuine and important negotiations!!! https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1480117785502040064
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Jan 9, 2022 17:57
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Should have held the conference in Munich. Would have been like poetry, i.e. it would've rhymed
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Jan 9, 2022 18:36
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barbecue at the folks posted:It really seems the Americans are not serious about these very genuine and important negotiations!!! Putin was a little toooo overt in his demands. If it was agreed upon it would be the equivalent of surrendering NATOs decision making power to Putin.
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Jan 9, 2022 18:38
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 Meanwhile Tokaev regime torturing visiting jazz musician for "confessions" of "terrorism": https://twitter.com/AzisAbakirov/status/1480057966774661122
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Jan 9, 2022 19:53
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OddObserver posted:
That looks like a Delta Force clandestine saboteur to me 
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Jan 9, 2022 19:59
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Seems that at the moment we’re looking at roughly 160 dead (could easily be an undercount) and 6000 detained in Kazakhstan. Tokayev appears to have regained control of Almaty, with military checkpoints erected throughout the city, but fresh CSTO troops keep arriving.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:09
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Seems that at the moment we’re looking at roughly 160 dead (could easily be an undercount) and 6000 detained in Kazakhstan. Tokayev appears to have regained control of Almaty, with military checkpoints erected throughout the city, but fresh CSTO troops keep arriving. Ooog yeah it ain't over. Why wouldn't the leader of Kazakhstan be corruptible by Putin, one of the wealthiest people in the world? I mean the tradeoff here isn't hard to see
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Jan 9, 2022 20:30
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Red and Black posted:There are a ton of reasons to disregard Applebaum. She's a right wing crank, who associates with far right nationalists in both in the US and Poland. Do you have actual evidence of this? Because from what I've seen she is more than critical of the deteriorating state of Polish governance.
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Jan 9, 2022 20:32
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Do you have actual evidence of this? Because from what I've seen she is more than critical of the deteriorating state of Polish governance. The Nation's profile on her shows some of this: quote:Anne Applebaum’s new book, Twilight of Democracy: The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism, opens two decades ago with a rollicking New Year’s Eve party that she and her husband threw at their renovated country estate in Poland to celebrate the triumphant end of the 20th century. Applebaum is a historian of Eastern Europe under communism, the author of Red Famine and the Pulitzer Prize–winning Gulag: A History; her husband, Radosław Sikorski, is a center-right politician who at various times has served as Poland’s foreign and defense ministers. Unsurprisingly, the guest list included many center-right intellectuals, journalists, and politicians from the three countries this power couple calls home—the United States, the United Kingdom, and Poland. But as we soon learn, in the 20 years since then, many of the guests have migrated from the center-right to the far right. “I would now cross the street to avoid some of the people who were at my New Year’s Eve party,” Applebaum writes. “They, in turn, would not only refuse to enter my house, they would be embarrassed to admit they had ever been there. In fact, about half the people who were at that party would no longer speak to the other half.” It's true that she tries to present herself as a centrist, but it's worth noting the company she keeps as she writes right-wing propaganda about Soviet history. And even if we didn't know about her associations with fascists, the quality of her "research" speaks for itself. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jan 9, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 20:46
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She's basically extremely neoliberal from what I've seen - she could have drifted further right but because Piss was so mean to her husband she's ended up critical of them and the trumplikes instead. Not that it particularly matters.
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Jan 9, 2022 21:17
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LOL at using the Nation to criticize someone as a dubious source, a publication that long threw its leftist credentials in the trash by mouthing off shameless Putinite propaganda.
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Jan 9, 2022 21:35
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I mean I'm pretty sure the right and far right hates her.
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Jan 9, 2022 21:50
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OddObserver posted:LOL at using the Nation to criticize someone as a dubious source, a publication that long threw its leftist credentials in the trash by mouthing off shameless Putinite propaganda. So rather than actually addressing who she associates with, or better yet, the fact that she essentially fabricated a dataset to support her distorted narrative of the Ukrainian famine, you’re going to engage in a lazy ad hominem?
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Jan 9, 2022 22:04
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Red and Black posted:So rather than actually addressing who she associates with, or better yet, the fact that she essentially fabricated a dataset to support her distorted narrative of the Ukrainian famine, you’re going to engage in a lazy ad hominem? Oh, right, you technically didn't attack Appelbaum, you attacked her former associates, so it doesn't count as ad hominem. But whatever, it's enough to see your use of language --- "Ukrainian famine" --- to know that the proper response to anything you say is to tell you to go gently caress yourself with your icons of Stalin.
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Jan 9, 2022 22:50
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OddObserver posted:Oh, right, you technically didn't attack Appelbaum, you attacked her former associates, so it doesn't count as ad hominem. I don't understand what him saying Ukrainian famine is meant to prove exactly? I guess its a bit overly specific since the famine was going on in a lot of the rest of the USSR.
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Jan 10, 2022 01:01
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khwarezm posted:I don't understand what him saying Ukrainian famine is meant to prove exactly? I guess its a bit overly specific since the famine was going on in a lot of the rest of the USSR. It’s a turn of phrase commonly used by people trying to blame Ukraine exclusively for Holodomor.
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Jan 10, 2022 01:25
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Red and Black posted:The Nation's profile on her shows some of this: Which ignores that this was 20 years ago, and I also love throwing Boris in there as though he's some kind of supervillain.
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Jan 10, 2022 01:46
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Stoltenberg: NATO is prepared for "a new armed conflict in Europe" should negotiations fail "I am aware of Russia's history. For centuries they have experienced conflict with neighbours," he told the Financial Times. "[But] Russia has an alternative: to co-operate, to work with Nato"
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Jan 10, 2022 04:24
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cinci zoo sniper posted:It’s a turn of phrase commonly used by people trying to blame Ukraine exclusively for Holodomor. Also makes it sound like "oh, just some food shortages in Ukraine, unfortunate, but those things happen".... never mind it was indisputably mass murder by the Stalin regime --- the only real dispute being the criteria based on which the victims were chosen (ethnicity? farmers owning some petty property? just happenstance?), which, frankly, doesn't matter all that much unless someone is being pedantic. "It's not technicallllyyy a genocide, they just accidentally murdered a bunch of minorities when trying to murder farmers and then resettled Russians in their place" is a heck of a hill to die on.
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Jan 10, 2022 04:29
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1. So here is the detail on the US' prepared sanctions against Russia in the event of invading Ukraine:Paywalled (and paraphrased) NYT Article posted:The Biden administration and its allies are assembling a punishing set of financial, technology and military sanctions against Russia that they say would go into effect within hours of an invasion of Ukraine, hoping to make clear to President Vladimir V. Putin the high cost he would pay if he sends troops across the border. The plans the United States has discussed with allies in recent days include cutting off Russia's largest financial institutions from global transactions, imposing an embargo on American-made or American-designed technology needed for defense-related and consumer industries, and arming insurgents in Ukraine who would conduct what would amount to a guerrilla war against a Russian military occupation, if it comes to that. 2.The Communist Party of Russia has prepared a draft on the recognition of the DPR and LPR. Just in time before the negotiations. It is curious that this was not done by the United Russia party, so this project can easily be approved or rejected depending on the position of United Russia in future circumstances. Grouchio fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 07:51
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