(Thread IKs:
ZShakespeare)
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N95? Nah, you’re too stupid to wear one properly. Teach you how? Nah, just wear a cloth one! Cloth ones don’t protect as well as N95 against Omicron? BEKINDBECALMBESAFE SMILE GOTOWORK SMILE SMILE God I hate her smug sanctimonious rear end so much. ChickenDoodle fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 05:17
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https://twitter.com/richardzussman/status/1480740123134205954 We've known for ages that covid is overdispersed, why would this be calming? Fits with "exponential spread is more likely with bigger numbers" I guess.
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Jan 11, 2022 05:19
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eXXon posted:Even if kids were completely immune to COVID symptoms, that doesn't mean they're not significantly contributing to spreading it to vulnerable people and filling up hospitals (including pediatric). That study is from 2020, pre-vaccine and pre-delta and omicron, and comes with caveats, including that only 1300 of the adults in that study actually got covid (this is over several months) and even fewer required hospitalization, which is obviously quite far from current conditions. That's not to say that any pre-omicron studies are invalid, but they ought to be balanced against the evidence that omicron is spreading wildly and filling up hospitals with schools still closed (and it will takes months for omicron-based studies to pass peer review, so preprints is the best you can do). Lead out in cuffs posted:Could we get a thread rule against citing medical opinions about COVID made by non-medical non-experts? Not sure of the best way to phrase or frame that, but it feels like it might clean up some of the discussion here. I think that's more or less already covered by general D&D rules: fool of sound posted:---Good discussion requires good information, something that is increasingly hard to come by in the age of 140 character non sequiturs and blogging grifters presenting as experts. Make an effort to vet your sources before you post them, and when you do make sure that you make clear the following: who is the source, what do they have to say, and why should they be considered valid. I'm not sure that we want to make a laundry list of COVID-specific posting rules when there's a general COVID thread. But as for this particular discussion, I think there was some reflexive assigning of ominous ulterior motives to a couple of pediatric associations that needed a great deal more evidence rather than just assuming that it's capital lusting for dead children.
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Jan 11, 2022 05:23
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I think I genuinely hate her lol
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Jan 11, 2022 05:29
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There are a few can physician Facebook groups and the pediatricians saying "open er up" has been uhhh controversial to say the least. For my part, I kept my kids at home this week. Roughly a third of the class was at home so we're not alone in this. Also the masks the government provided are an absolute joke. They apparently got the cheapest procedure masks you can find. In adult sizes. Which I'm sure will work great on my 5 year old.
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Jan 11, 2022 05:50
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I’m feeling extremely validated in my choice to not have children or deal with any of this.
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Jan 11, 2022 07:22
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ChickenDoodle posted:N95? Nah, you’re too stupid to wear one properly. Teach you how? Nah, just wear a cloth one! It's not about teaching people how to wear one properly, n95s have to be fit tested to determine what specific size and type is for your face. This is done with gross tasting chemicals and a big plastic hood. If you don't know your size/type# it doesn't seal and you're not getting that sweet sweet filtering %. You can teach people to don/doff and all that properly but if you don't have a fit test and don't know your size, it's not protecting you at the level you want to believe. Air is coming in. Might as well get a generic kn95 at that point. The messaging on this has been, of course, idiotic so here we are. I didn't find that hard to explain, I trust it was not hard to understand? Couldn't fit that in a few tweets? Teachers should have had fit testing done and paid for.... in 2020. And grocery store workers. But lol. I have been fitted for an n95, the tight fit is deeply uncomfortable and not great for talking, I have yet to wear my actual type, and I am doomer as poo poo. The minute I had it on I realized why everyone fitted for hospital or industrial work isn't wearing their real ones out for groceries. It's a safety device and it feels like one. I'm not saying cloth masks are okay (they are not and never have been), and that the tweet is not horrifically stupid, but things are more complex than just giving out n95s at any size to whoever. There's better options, none of which will be done.
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Jan 11, 2022 07:36
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Scudworth posted:It's not about teaching people how to wear one properly, n95s have to be fit tested to determine what specific size and type is for your face. This is done with gross tasting chemicals and a big plastic hood. If you don't know your size/type# it doesn't seal and you're not getting that sweet sweet filtering %. You can teach people to don/doff and all that properly but if you don't have a fit test and don't know your size, it's not protecting you at the level you want to believe. Air is coming in. Might as well get a generic kn95 at that point. Except, no, they don't have to be in order to achieve a good enough seal to be way better than other mask types. Fit testing would be nice and all, but it isn't some manner of requirement to keep you from bursting into flames by wearing it at 98% optimal seal rather than 100% when at a medical appointment or the grocery store or whatever. I'm not calling you dumb, but I am calling this position, which we sure did see a lot of in the early days of the pandemic, but I wasn't expecting now, dumb.
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Jan 11, 2022 07:44
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Scudworth posted:Might as well get a generic kn95 at that point. No, because KN95s are more likely to be counterfeit or just plain not meet the standard, which is itself simply worse than N95. For that matter, NIOSH requires head bands on N95 masks because ear loops can't provide a good enough seal (which certainly raises questions about ear loop KN95s). Scudworth posted:The messaging on this has been, of course, idiotic so here we are. I didn't find that hard to explain, I trust it was not hard to understand? Couldn't fit that in a few tweets? How about providing free fit testing for everyone and also having governments order/requisition N95 masks in bulk and in a variety of shapes/sizes instead of letting consumers wade through a sea of counterfeit garbage from who knows where?
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Jan 11, 2022 08:04
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For what it's worth, I think a lot of people use "N95" as (possibly unintentional) shorthand for "a better mask than three of my old t-shirts sewn together, which was a precautionary stopgap while nurses were wearing garbage bags for PPE but maybe we should get around to making some more of these and then we could hand them out and spend 2 minutes of our bloated press conferences demonstrating how to wear one effectively also maybe we could stop telling people to replace their good mask with a shittier procedure mask when entering a building".eXXon posted:No, because KN95s are more likely to be counterfeit or just plain not meet the standard, which is itself simply worse than N95. For that matter, NIOSH requires head bands on N95 masks because ear loops can't provide a good enough seal (which certainly raises questions about ear loop KN95s). Why are KN95s more likely to be counterfeit or broken? What questions are raised about ear loops?
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Jan 11, 2022 08:17
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Well some good news - in BC although who the gently caress knows what our case counts are (testing infrastructure has collapsed), our hospitalisation rates are actually decreasing now over the last week or so Crossing fingers it continues. Same thing seems to be happening in Denmark too.
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Jan 11, 2022 08:24
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eXXon posted:No, because KN95s are more likely to be counterfeit or just plain not meet the standard, I mean the well designed mask types made and given to the public by governments that gave a poo poo and do this, not random ones from amazon. I mean having anything even resembling a decent PPE plan for the public, and distribution of such. I mean any thought beyond "we're giving n95s to teachers!" "do they fit?" "What?" pokeyman posted:What questions are raised about ear loops? Ear loop masks do not create seals, only the around the head straps can reliably do this. But people like the ear loops.
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Jan 11, 2022 08:42
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Scudworth posted:Ear loop masks do not create seals, only the around the head straps can reliably do this. But people like the ear loops. Right. Has anybody argued otherwise? eXXon made it sound like there's something nefarious here. (Also, who likes ear loops? I just assumed they were cheaper or easier to make or something. They seem strictly worse for the actual user.)
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Jan 11, 2022 08:51
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Scudworth posted:Ear loop masks do not create seals, only the around the head straps can reliably do this. But people like the ear loops. I honestly don't get why this is. Yeah, they're easier to put on and take off, I guess, like, taking 3 to 5 less seconds to do so, but head straps are so much more comfortable for actually wearing a mask any longer than a few seconds.
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Jan 11, 2022 08:52
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Alctel posted:Well some good news - in BC although who the gently caress knows what our case counts are (testing infrastructure has collapsed), our hospitalisation rates are actually decreasing now over the last week or so So far so good but I expect a NYE-related surge in hospitalizations still here in Legoland. For case counts by date of test: pre:Jan 09 6,656 cases (partial count) Jan 08 13,510 Jan 07 14,389 Jan 06 15,413 Jan 05 17,576 Jan 04 23,697 Jan 03 25,618 (3 days post NYE celebrations) Jan 02 19,905 Jan 01 8,630 Dec 31 9,727 Dec 30 19,226 Dec 29 17,244 Dec 28 21,955 Dec 27 22,616 (3 days post XMas Eve dinners) Dec 26 10,966 Dec 25 7,853 Dec 24 7,054 pre:Jan 09 126 new hospitalizations (723 total) Jan 08 161 new hospitalizations (730 total) Jan 07 186 new hospitalizations (755 total) Jan 06 161 new hospitalizations (756 total) Jan 05 204 new hospitalizations (784 total) Jan 04 229 new hospitalizations (792 total) xmas hospital spike? Jan 03 169 new hospitalizations (770 total) nye case spike started here (expect hospital around 10th/11th?) Jan 02 163 new hospitalizations (709 total) Jan 01 139 new hospitalizations (647 total) Dec 31 177 new hospitalizations (641 total) Dec 30 178 new hospitalizations (665 total) Dec 29 173 new hospitalizations (675 total) Dec 28 177 new hospitalizations (666 total) Dec 27 115 new hospitalizations (608 total) xmas case spike started here Dec 26 123 new hospitalizations (579 total) Dec 25 86 new hospitalizations (522 total) Dec 24 134 new hospitalizations (509 total) Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 08:53
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https://twitter.com/FurnessColin/status/1480748129523834880?t=mI9vwebm2NZLTxea9PY9_g&s=19 The answer of course is "no, gently caress you"
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Jan 11, 2022 09:34
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Albino Squirrel posted:There are a few can physician Facebook groups and the pediatricians saying "open er up" has been uhhh controversial to say the least. Yeah, this is anecdotally what I hear the most: "I have the option not to send my kid, ergo I'm not sending my kid." I'd be curious to know how many pediatricians are sending their own kids to school, or if they think school should simply be an available option (with no regard for the staff who have no choice but to go).
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Jan 11, 2022 15:10
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Scudworth posted:It's not about teaching people how to wear one properly, n95s have to be fit tested to determine what specific size and type is for your face. This is done with gross tasting chemicals and a big plastic hood. If you don't know your size/type# it doesn't seal and you're not getting that sweet sweet filtering %. You can teach people to don/doff and all that properly but if you don't have a fit test and don't know your size, it's not protecting you at the level you want to believe. Air is coming in. Might as well get a generic kn95 at that point. This flies in the face of everything that I've read and I find it hard to believe. Yes, obviously people getting a non-fitted n95-ish mask are not protected to the same level as fit-tested, but most people are not working 16 hours in a covid ward. Wearing nothing is worse than wearing a cloth mask. Wearing a cloth mask is worse than wearing those surgical-type masks. And wearing a surgical mask is worse than wearing a non-fit-tested kn95-ish mask. I don't think anyone has advocated for wearing the same n95 hospital grade fit-tested mask as health care workers. But Bonnie Henry continuing to advocate for cloth masks in the wake of omicron infectiousness is franky ludicrous.
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Jan 11, 2022 15:28
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An illfitting n95 is still much better than any other procedural mask. Most masks will fit most people unless you have a weird face. Different masks have different comfort levels and it doesn't mean it doesn't fit if its comfortable. All in all the n95 has to be fitted stuff is gatekeeping and not helpful. It's a legal requirement for hospitals because they're liable if they give you ppe that doesn't work. It's not some difficult magical thing to get an n95 that fits and works.
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Jan 11, 2022 15:34
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luv 2 wear my n95 without even pressing the metal bar against my nose
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Jan 11, 2022 15:44
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Anecdotally: when the forest fires started becoming a frequent thing in BC, I bought N95s from the pharmacy. I’ve been wearing them for years in forest fire season and it made a huge difference to my QOL. No, they weren’t “professionally fitted”, but I made sure the seal was enough that it stuck to my fat face. And when the pandemic started, that’s exactly what I put on. It’s not that hard. But nobody is willing to distribute them or teach how to use, cause from most of the interactions with the government I’ve observed, they think we’re all too stupid to know anything. Remember, we’re ruining it for the rest of ‘them’! (I will never let that loving comment go.)
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Jan 11, 2022 16:00
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McGavin posted:luv 2 wear my n95 without even pressing the metal bar against my nose Yeah, it doesn't even matter that N95s are supposed to be fitted: it's that there's a huge segment of the population who don't even understand that a mask needs to go over your nose. We had one person at work show up wearing a mask with some sort of religious slogan on it and she was wearing it upside down and under her nose. For that matter, go to any grocery store right now and shop for 10 minutes and see if you can't find somebody with a mask under their nose. A lot of people won't be able to work an N95.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:00
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InfiniteZero posted:Yeah, it doesn't even matter that N95s are supposed to be fitted: it's that there's a huge segment of the population who don't even understand that a mask needs to go over your nose. We had one person at work show up wearing a mask with some sort of religious slogan on it and she was wearing it upside down and under her nose. That's why you need a loving n95. gently caress the people that won't wear their mask properly. The people that care can protect themselves and messaging like a surgical mask is 90% effective and you must be fitted for an n95 is bullshit.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:03
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Oh the ab government finally gave us kn95s at the isolation facility where I work. Unfortunately they're the cheapest possible pieces of crap. They have plastic nose strips. Have you ever tried to make a seal with hard plastic? It just makes you blow streams of air directly into your eyeballs. This is fine and good.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:07
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pokeyman posted:Why are KN95s more likely to be counterfeit or broken? What questions are raised about ear loops? Yiu can buy N95s directly from the manufacturer in some countries, or from hardware stores and verify the serial numbers (at least with 3M), which is not to say that counterfeits don't exist but they should be easier to avoid (whereas the CDC claims 60% of KN95s are counterfeit). Ear loops don't meet the NIOSH standard for N95s, which raises the obvious question of how they can do so for KN95s when it's nominally the same filtration threshold. e: for what it's worth, the mask nerd tested many ear loop masks that apparently did meet the 95% threshold (see pinned tweet) and even an N100. So is NIOSH wrong to disallow them, or is This Random Guy's methodology not accounting for practical/long term use? Who knows, but ideally NIOSH/FDA/Health Canada should provide info like this, not A Random Guy. https://mobile.twitter.com/masknerd?lang=en Precambrian Video Games fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 16:13
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Quebec news : Horacio Arruda, our public health director has resigned for "eroding the public trust/confidence". Basically, for waffling and flip-flopping on N95 masks (saying they're less useful than medical mask if poorly adjusted), the size of allowed christmas party, allowing sick kids in kindergardens, the use of rapid tests and so on. I didn't think he was particularly great, but whoever Legeault picks next is probably going to be even more of a walking trashfire.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:22
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linoleum floors posted:That's why you need a loving n95. gently caress the people that won't wear their mask properly. The people that care can protect themselves and messaging like a surgical mask is 90% effective and you must be fitted for an n95 is bullshit. Oh, I've been wearing N95s for a long time, thanks. I was thinking more about the distribution of them to the general public.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:25
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Anecdotally, it seems to be a whole lot harder to wear an N95 "wrong" than a cloth or surgical mask. You can't exactly wear an N95 under your nose or chin comfortably and think you're doing it right, while this is pretty easy to do accidentally with a cloth/surgical. I don't want to underestimate Canadian stupidity but at the bare minimum if you're wearing an N95 it's almost certainly covering your whole nose and mouth, even if the seal isn't perfect. .
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Jan 11, 2022 16:29
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flashy_mcflash posted:Anecdotally, it seems to be a whole lot harder to wear an N95 "wrong" than a cloth or surgical mask. You can't exactly wear an N95 under your nose or chin comfortably and think you're doing it right, while this is pretty easy to do accidentally with a cloth/surgical. I don't want to underestimate Canadian stupidity but at the bare minimum if you're wearing an N95 it's almost certainly covering your whole nose and mouth, even if the seal isn't perfect. . No-one is accidentally wearing a mask under their nose or chin. They know exactly what they are doing.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:37
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I put a n95 on my face, push the metal bands down on my nose, and my glasses don't fog up anymore and the fabric moves in and out from the vacuum of my breath and there's no air escaping around the sides. I'm not sure what professional skill I need to wear it above and beyond that, at least such that it's better than the surgical mask I was previously wearing with huge gaps all around the sides. If i was remediating asbestos or something I think I'd worry more but I'm sure what I'm doing is fine and better than just wrapping a t-shirt around my lower face
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Jan 11, 2022 16:38
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I will say, finding one that fits your head/face properly seems like a total crapshoot, especially given that they're getting harder to find and relatively expensive
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Jan 11, 2022 16:41
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flashy_mcflash posted:Anecdotally, it seems to be a whole lot harder to wear an N95 "wrong" than a cloth or surgical mask. You can't exactly wear an N95 under your nose or chin comfortably and think you're doing it right, while this is pretty easy to do accidentally with a cloth/surgical. I don't want to underestimate Canadian stupidity but at the bare minimum if you're wearing an N95 it's almost certainly covering your whole nose and mouth, even if the seal isn't perfect. . I've seen several people on the street recently that have demonstrated it's entirely possible to wear an N95 on your chin or under your nose.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:44
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:I've seen several people on the street recently that have demonstrated it's entirely possible to wear an N95 on your chin or under your nose. Yeah, but it isn't accidental.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:45
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Franks Happy Place posted:https://twitter.com/FurnessColin/status/1480748129523834880?t=mI9vwebm2NZLTxea9PY9_g&s=19 Ah, but If we’re peaking that means we can only go down! 
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Jan 11, 2022 16:47
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Jan 11, 2022 17:16
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terrorist ambulance posted:I put a n95 on my face, push the metal bands down on my nose, and my glasses don't fog up anymore and the fabric moves in and out from the vacuum of my breath and there's no air escaping around the sides. I'm not sure what professional skill I need to wear it above and beyond that, at least such that it's better than the surgical mask I was previously wearing with huge gaps all around the sides. I do that except it still fogs up glasses if I'm wearing them, just at different rates depending on the mask and how I shape the nose bar. So I would definitely find some kind of fit testing with a variety of masks useful.
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Jan 11, 2022 17:24
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Yeah fit testing. My employer has been obligated to fit test and provide me with a full face respirator. Testing must happen on a 2 year schedule. I have been fit tested 3 times since I started in 2008. Never been provided a respirator. But if I let my stubble grow more than a micron, there's some officious prick jumping straight on my rear end telling me to shave. It has always been about the facade.
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Jan 11, 2022 17:30
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:I've seen several people on the street recently that have demonstrated it's entirely possible to wear an N95 on your chin or under your nose. Mad Hamish posted:No-one is accidentally wearing a mask under their nose or chin. They know exactly what they are doing. Both the cloth and surgical masks can and do slip, that's part of the reason they suck. I get it, it's definitely happened to me. But I do let my n95 hang around my neck when I'm, say, out walking my dog and am outside, well distanced, and interacting with no one.
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Jan 11, 2022 17:48
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It may be too-little-too-late, but I finally was able get some (seemingly legit) N95's shipped here. Also ordered some office-friendly (i.e. almost normal-looking) safety glasses, considering that eyes never stopped being a mucous membrane that can transmit the virus. I've got two stepkids that returned to school this week, a 4-year-old who isn't eligible for vaccination yet, and both my grandparents' health is ailing. If cases explode this week, it may not matter when this equipment finally arrives, but I'll feel better leaving the house knowing I've done everything I can to protect the vulnerable people in my life. Never have kids. You never stop worrying about them. 
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Jan 11, 2022 17:53
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eXXon posted:ideally NIOSH/FDA/Health Canada should provide info like this, not A Random Guy. This is my whole thing. It's pretty easy to find info, papers, etc. out there, but go to the supposedly official sources to double-check or find more local info and it's either crickets or bullshit. I still can't find an official source with any recommendations around reusing (K)N95s. I can piece together that I'm probably ok rotating through three, leaving two days to air out so the covid in/on them dies, but it'd be cool if the people supposedly in charge of keeping me healthy made even a mention of it. I also feel like procedure masks come from the "it's droplets lol" days, and without something pressing the sides in a bit they're less useful than we think. But that could be my anger at health authorities taking me too far in the other direction.
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Jan 11, 2022 18:20
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