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This movie ruled
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Jan 10, 2022 12:46
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As we read in Slavoj Žižek's three-syllable adjective noun, "This movie drooled."
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Jan 10, 2022 17:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:No, because the Star Wars thread isn't an alternate universe. It could maybe count as some sort of hypothetical 'nonfictionkin' - if I personally identified as the character in your dramatization on a 'deeply spiritual level'. Like, beyond my more immediate experience. The setting of Resurrections isn't an alternate universe either. It's metaphorically an alternate universe, but I could play the same game with this SA thread vs. that SA thread or an SA thread vs. your offline life. You have to smuggle in the assumption that the previous films didn't happen, or that Trinity meant that a character looked like her "on a deep spiritual level" (rather than just looked like her, because she could look into a mirror and at a screen in quick succession) in order to make any of this work, but it's just more tenuous and less believable than the default understanding of the movie(s). A Trinity who was maximally uncharitable or uninterested in playing along wouldn't simply fail to see herself in the video game, but rather would realize that this weird game dev who goes to her coffee shop has been stalking her for years.
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Jan 10, 2022 17:59
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DaveKap posted:Your statement that the action and effects are "part of the formula" of what makes "The Matrix" is an absolutely perfect metaphor that proves a point for folks who are negative on the film. A formula is a combination of ingredients that creates a product. If you lose or change one ingredient, the final product is different from what the formula intended. People wanted to watch something that was "The Matrix" and got enough ingredients changed that the intended formulaic product was something people did not want. I think that’s a very fair assessment of the range of views. Yeah I need to give the soundtrack another listen. Don Davis work is just classic, but I really enjoyed Tom Tykwer’s music for Cloud Atlas. It’s the most memorable aspect for me and really makes the movie whole. So I want to give him the benefit of the doubt here, but currently yeah I can’t think of any themes or tracks off the top of my head from this latest film.
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Jan 10, 2022 18:09
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Maybe I have a problematic blind spot, but I don't see what otherkin has to do with being trans?
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Jan 10, 2022 20:27
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Roth posted:Maybe I have a problematic blind spot, but I don't see what otherkin has to do with being trans? I've heard - I think in a Lindsay Ellis video - that otherkin, furries, and similar are a safe stepping stone to coming out or figuring out that you are somewhere on the LGBTQ+ spectrum. I don't have personal experience in this but it makes a certain amount of sense. You look internally, decide you're different in some way, try on a new persona, find an online community to be a part of, etc.
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Jan 10, 2022 21:22
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Only the first Matrix film exists. The rest are simulations inside my rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 10, 2022 21:29
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checkplease posted:I think that’s a very fair assessment of the range of views. I've been listening to the soundtrack this morning after your post. It does end up being kind of flat. It has very Matrix sounds and textures but never has any of the big pounding moments like the original trilogy. The vibe of being similar to but not the same as reminds me of the one for Godzilla Vs Kong. That one went a step farther into a weird space because it went even closer to very familiar themes like the classic Godzilla one, making it very knockoff and uncanny feeling. Resurrections' is just kind of there. Not detracting but not really adding either.
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Jan 10, 2022 21:44
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I don't think the soundtracks really work when not paired with the action in the films.
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Jan 10, 2022 21:56
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Some do and some don't. At least parts of the original Matrix soundtracks do work for me on their own. The Highway Chase is a great piece where the movements of the music are exciting, dynamic and tell the story even without the pictures. Along with the ones for the last Neo/Smith fight.
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Jan 10, 2022 22:14
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No. 6 posted:Only the first Matrix film exists. The rest are simulations inside my rear end in a top hat. Your rear end used to make some good tunes! Sodomy Hussein posted:I don't think the soundtracks really work when not paired with the action in the films. Between the freeway chase, Chateau fight and the opening sequence theme I listen to matrix 2 a lot.
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Jan 10, 2022 22:26
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Shiroc posted:Some do and some don't. At least parts of the original Matrix soundtracks do work for me on their own. The Highway Chase is a great piece where the movements of the music are exciting, dynamic and tell the story even without the pictures. Along with the ones for the last Neo/Smith fight. Nuts and Gum posted:Between the freeway chase, Chateau fight and the opening sequence theme I listen to matrix 2 a lot.
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Jan 10, 2022 22:26
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ideologies like "i believe i'm a dragon in a human suit" are freaky deaky to most people, not because those beliefs are particularly incoherent, but precisely because they remind people that all beliefs we hold are basically nonsense.
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Jan 10, 2022 22:44
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Noam Chomsky posted:I've heard - I think in a Lindsay Ellis video - that otherkin, furries, and similar are a safe stepping stone to coming out or figuring out that you are somewhere on the LGBTQ+ spectrum. you feel, discover, and analyze. not look, decide, and try. the latter is offensive (there is semantic leeway with feel/look) Roth posted:Maybe I have a problematic blind spot, but I don't see what otherkin has to do with being trans? otherkin is a figurative resolvement of identity; trans being a literal resolvement. the matrix (series) is figurative, not literal, and reads incomplete/incompetent/insulting (best/middling/worst case) from/as a trans perspective/narrative
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Jan 10, 2022 22:56
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I thought we were defending otherkins from SMG, now being otherkin and by extension The Matrix is offensive?
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Jan 10, 2022 23:12
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I'd been trying to defend trans readings from SMG trying to ridicule them as non critical (or saying what trans experience *really* is), unlike saying that all of the protagonists were otherkinning blue haired tumblr queers who took video games too seriously (I guess), until I realized that was a pointless endeavor. Otherwise, there are several threads of argument all happening at once and it is kind of an unsatisfying mess, unlike the Matrix Resurrections which I think was messy but overall solid as an epilogue. Shiroc fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 10, 2022 |
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Jan 10, 2022 23:32
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SMG is right in that the matrix (series) is otherkin as gently caress, but wrong in conflating being otherkin with something silly, like simulation theory. allow me to rewrite my last sentence from my previous post: the matrix (series) when read literal, is incomplete/incompetent/insulting (best/middling/worst case) from/as a trans perspective/narrative; figuratively, i have discovered it fares better, but overall still very disappointing. not all transfolk are otherkin. not all otherkin are trans. one can experience and resolve figurative dysphorias and literal dysphorias; they are not mutually exclusive nor inclusive
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Jan 10, 2022 23:58
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There's a lot of messages, and I think it's not great when symbolism is all waving hands around and gesturing vaguely at concepts. As a transitional story, specifically going from an inauthentic place to an authentic one it does a pretty adequate job. It's unfortunately open-ended enough that the "destination" reads anywhere in the range from leaving a toxic environment, self-discovery, cult beliefs, surrendering to a compelling delusion, to Tumblr whatever. I'd say another movie stumbled with metaphor was Us. There were a lot of things which were obviously meant to stand in for other things, but sometimes A stood-in for X, but sometimes for Y. And if you looked at it the other way, assumed it consistently meant X and Y, you got some (obviously unintentional) hosed up messages about A. I think this happens when you try to grab hold of huge, complicated subjects like race, class, or gender and stuff them into a summer blockbuster action or horror film.
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Jan 11, 2022 00:13
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DaveKap posted:Yeah, big time this. Although I can see some of the action in my mind's eye as I listen to Clubbed to Death, Mona Lisa Overdrive, and Chateau, they're all absolutely exhilarating pieces that I can listen to on their own or while doing other activities. They're all especially good for jogging. Oh yeah, totally forgot furious angels was at the beginning of Reloaded! Speaking of, that tiny fight with Neo and the upgraded agents was the only one in the sequels that felt like the og matrix to me.
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Jan 11, 2022 00:26
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moths posted:
The scene in Tokyo where the heroes are fighting a mindless mob of drones wearing virus masks was something I immediately could see someone getting real happy about in terms of interpreting it a particular way.
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Jan 11, 2022 01:23
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Shiroc posted:I've been listening to the soundtrack this morning after your post. It does end up being kind of flat. It has very Matrix sounds and textures but never has any of the big pounding moments like the original trilogy. The vibe of being similar to but not the same as reminds me of the one for Godzilla Vs Kong. That one went a step farther into a weird space because it went even closer to very familiar themes like the classic Godzilla one, making it very knockoff and uncanny feeling. Resurrections' is just kind of there. Not detracting but not really adding either. Nice, I also pulled up The Matrix Resurrections album for a listen today. Overall I agree it is more flat compared to the old ones and doesnt really function as well disconnected from the film scenes. As others pointed out, the OG trilogy has some great tracks that you can just listen to wherever. But I do like a few of the things this soundtrack is doing at least. Simulatte Brawl and My Dream Ended Here are my favorites I think. These are also the emotional peaks of the film (Trinity and Neo touching/jumping) and music reflects that, both driving to big musical catharsis. Simulatte has some of the OG matrix theme in it too. And both feature the new matrix/neo theme strongly. I Fly or I Fall is pretty good too. The new theme is here, which I guess is a rising scale of sorts? I dunno, not that good with music. But I like it, and the rising aspect I suppose reflects the nature of returning. The theme is also very strong Recruiting. Swarm is a pretty good action beat, though it reminds me a lot of a Zimmer piece.
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Jan 11, 2022 02:13
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A funny part in the Matrix 1 Critics Commentary track (on all the newest physical releases at least): During the lobby scene when Neo and Trinity show all their guns and open fire, the music starts in and within a few beats one of the Critics complains, "Who would want to listen to such music?!" I just thought that clearly this guy was not in highschool/college at the time. Everyone loved these tracks.
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Jan 11, 2022 02:21
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I just rewatched the jump at the end of Resurrections to see how everything worked in context. I hadn't picked up the first time that Trinity looking into the sun and saying 'beautiful' was a direct callback to her seeing the real world sun in Revolutions. Going back to that moment is what makes her remember everything and this time it helps her reach living spiritual ascendance instead of being immediately followed by death. Or its followed symbolic death of her Matrix created being to become truly Trinity again? I need to think about it more or better understand Buddhism.
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Jan 11, 2022 03:05
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Qualia posted:SMG is right in that the matrix (series) is otherkin as gently caress, but wrong in conflating being otherkin with something silly, like simulation theory. Right! Except that I am not using 'silly' in a pejorative sense. I believe you can watch a film about the concept like fictionkin and analyze it on its own terms without buying into the quantum woo or whatever. Or, as Zizek notes, "one should distinguish simple technological impossibility from fantasmatic falsity." Lion King 'works' even though we know that big cats don't actually speak English. Ferrinus posted:The setting of Resurrections isn't an alternate universe either. [...] It's just more tenuous and less believable than the default understanding of the movie(s). The “default understanding” of Matrix’s plot is that the universe we inhabit is an illusion. Basic pop gnosticism. The matrix is a universe according to most definitions of the term, regardless of whether it is considered ‘artificial’. In Matrix 4, we have the creation of at least one alternate virtual universe - the fourth of its kind, in the context of the series. The previous one is offline, completely shut down. Now, your argument is that this panoply of virtual universes is ‘grounded’ in a singular universe: what Morpheus refers to as “the real world”. But fictionkin religion is likewise grounded in a greater spiritual realm where all possible universes intersect. Something allows the spirit of dead Squidward to ‘cross over’. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 04:43
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moths posted:There's a lot of messages, and I think it's not great when symbolism is all waving hands around and gesturing vaguely at concepts. I think viewers are rarely confused by that stuff and just leverage it for fake outrage at movies they dislike anyway. You can make wild “bad” readings out of “us” or this movie but no one watching the movies really did. They just all constructed it after to the fact to be angry at,
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Jan 11, 2022 05:55
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Other than conclusions drawn, how is that any different than a positive read? Either way you're just articulating your impressions by mapping them to the film.
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Jan 11, 2022 06:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The “default understanding” of Matrix’s plot is that the universe we inhabit is an illusion. Basic pop gnosticism. The matrix is a universe according to most definitions of the term, regardless of whether it is considered ‘artificial’. The Matrix obviously has (some of) its roots in the gnostic tradition, but with these key differences: first, rather than malice or vanity, the demiurge is driven to maintain its prison by its own physical requirements. Second, rather than a pure distraction to be dismissed and escaped from by the sufficiently enlightened, the computer simulation actually represents an important survival tool and way of life (for humans and programs both), such that conditions inside it are important and it needs to be reckoned with rather than just swept away. This means that there is actually only one, material world in the Matrix series (you can tell because you can kill people in the matrix by just yanking a plug out of a socket or releasing an electromagnetic pulse), and Trinity's escapades in past movies are just... history. There's no "universes intersect". Things happen in order, even though they involve sci fi futuretech. This means that Trinity (like Neo) is effectively the reincarnation of a historical figure, like Evelyn in the Mummy Returns or Mina in Bram Stoker's Dracula. This is still on its face a pretty fantastical state of affairs and there are plenty of people sure they were Alexander the Great in a past life, but it's not the same as a multiverse in which Sephiroth is or was really out there, somewhere, that you or I might be partaking of his essence.
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Jan 11, 2022 07:20
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Shiroc posted:I just rewatched the jump at the end of Resurrections to see how everything worked in context. I hadn't picked up the first time that Trinity looking into the sun and saying 'beautiful' was a direct callback to her seeing the real world sun in Revolutions. Going back to that moment is what makes her remember everything and this time it helps her reach living spiritual ascendance instead of being immediately followed by death. Or its followed symbolic death of her Matrix created being to become truly Trinity again? I need to think about it more or better understand Buddhism. Good catch on the sun callback. There’s the parallels to neo and his path. He had to die first and be reborn through love before getting his new form. And so trinity also had to die, in matrix 3, and be pulled back by neo in this one. There’s a lot of rebirth definitely. One thing they talk about in the original trilogy commentaries is how mind (matrix), body (human), and spirit (machine) are separated and must be in harmony. Fights in the matrix are battles of ideas in the mind (neo vs smith, or vs Merovingian ). So battling the swarm and analyst was her struggle for her self in the mind, and the final jump that connected her the one powers also unified her with the spirit (power connected to machine city source) like neo.
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Jan 11, 2022 07:43
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checkplease posted:Good catch on the sun callback. There’s the parallels to neo and his path. He had to die first and be reborn through love before getting his new form. And so trinity also had to die, in matrix 3, and be pulled back by neo in this one. There’s a lot of rebirth definitely. There are also little flickers of gold that Trinity sees before the sun, like the ones Neo was seeing from the machines in Revolutions, to connect to your bit about the source. Its a great scene.
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Jan 11, 2022 08:08
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Just about every song in the first matrix soundtrack is permanently embedded in my brain. It probably helps that songs like Ultrasonic Sound and Spybreak were heavily used in the early days of flash animation. The later soundtracks didn't stick with me much, just a few like Mona Lisa Overdrive and Navras. It's a shame another failure of resurrections is the completely forgettable music.
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Jan 11, 2022 16:23
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Ferrinus posted:This means that Trinity (like Neo) is effectively the reincarnation of a historical figure Well no; you are arguing that Trinity wasn't reincarnated at all - that, beneath all the appearances, she remains bound to the same meat (carne). In this view, there is only one 90-something woman whose mind has been (repeatedly?) wiped, implanted with false memories, and uploaded into a virtual universe by a Cartesian demon for the purposes of torture. This woman-of-extradimensional-flesh has never actually touched a motorcycle, and ends the film lying in a chair someplace. We never actually do see what happens to her. (What's life like in the strawberry farm? Isn't it established that she and Neo will explode and kill everyone nearby if they hug?) But the error here is illustrative: you do understand that this is the story of reincarnation and journeys between worlds, because that is how the narrative is presented and how the Tiffany/Trinity character sees things. Even at the end, she gets angry at Chad, and her stupid mother, etc. - characters who never existed 'in the flesh'. So, to return to the more basic point, the issue with your plot-based reading is not that it's technologically impossible; you can invent any 'indistinguishable-from-magic' technology you'd like to explain things away (just as fictionkin make recourse to infinite universes). Neo doesn't explode because they reversed the polarity on the tachyon emitters, whatever. The issue is the fantasmatic falsity of the reading. Like, I have yet to encounter a single person who looks upon the "real world" communities of Zion or IO and says "yeah, I'm totally like these medical hackers in the sewers, beset by the millions of flying robots". SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 16:26
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right! Except that I am not using 'silly' in a pejorative sense. I believe you can watch a film about the concept like fictionkin and analyze it on its own terms without buying into the quantum woo or whatever. Or, as Zizek notes, "one should distinguish simple technological impossibility from fantasmatic falsity." Lion King 'works' even though we know that big cats don't actually speak English. you obfuscate. what's the deal using a word with pejorative and non-pejorative definitions and expecting it to be immediately apparent the non-pejorative meaning is what's up. simulation theory is completely useless and solves nothing. otherkin saves lives. i am struggling not see the bigotry here; you've gone from academic mistake to hostile thoughts. identity is reality, figuratively and literally. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Like, I have yet to encounter a single person who looks upon the "real world" communities of Zion or IO and says "yeah, I'm totally like these medical hackers in the sewers, beset by the millions of flying robots". you are using your lack of anecdotal evidence as cogent point? here you succumb to classism as to why you do not recognize the existence of such individuals Qualia fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 16:46
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Qualia posted:what's the deal using a word with pejorative and non-pejorative definitions and expecting it to be immediately apparent the non-pejorative meaning is what's up. I did not expect that, which is why I wrote that I am using 'silly' in a sense that "isn't an insult" and is neither good nor bad: "I don't believe this is 'good' or 'bad'; it's just true." Additionally, I specified that the subject matter is 'unusual' and 'interesting'. I other words, to be clear, I appreciate that fictionkin culture is 'fun' and 'against commonsense' even though I do not ascribe to any new-agey religious aspects. quote:you are using your lack of anecdotal evidence as cogent point? here you succumb to classism as to why you do not recognize the existence of such individuals I am not deny the existence of poor people, obviously. I am asserting that IO is a very sanitized depiction of poverty or whatever: in Zizek's terms, "another boring dystopia about the remnants of humanity fighting evil machines." Submarine-style combat between distinct nations, etc. The "utopian island" protected by cloaking devices because it is unable to sustain contact with the 'outside world' is a familiar image from Black Panther, Wonder Woman, Kong: Skull Island.... As we've seen in the thread, people are much more compelled by the "I'm gonna be fired from my job and random strangers might shoot me in the face" aspect of life inside the matrix.
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Jan 11, 2022 18:48
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The funniest thing about Matrix 4 is how it’s ostensibly an anti-capitalist film by explicitly turning the matrix into a metaphor for capitalism (via the analyst) while still placing an emphasis on maintaining rugged individual identity — a fundamental contradiction.
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Jan 11, 2022 20:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I did not expect that, which is why I wrote that I am using 'silly' in a sense that "isn't an insult" and is neither good nor bad: "I don't believe this is 'good' or 'bad'; it's just true." fictionkin, a subset of otherkin, an 'identity derive[d] from [...] metaphor', is to be understood as a figurative identity just as how trans is understood as literal identity. the lack of dysphoria is the only necessary component of identity -- transfolk need not participate in hormone replacement or surgery to 'fulfill' their identity and relieve dysphoria. otherkin need not inhabit a universe where fiction is fact to relieve dysphoria. furthermore, SuperMechagodzilla posted:There is no analogy between the otherkin beliefs of what we could call “The Church of Neo”, and the trans rights movement (or BLM, or whatever else). The best analogy we have would be to other religions. unlike religion, which purports competition amongst themselves (mormonism supplants islam supplants christianity supplants judaism...), otherkin (figurative identity) does not compete with trans (literal identity) rights, just as trans rights does not compete with orientation (which is not identity) rights. as such, when discussing otherkin media such as the matrix series, it is no less duh to be critical, to 'analyze it on its own terms without buying into the quantum woo', but without bigotry. continued assertion that otherkin is a religion or 'against commonsense' is wrong. Zizek posted:In order to further specify what is false in The Matrix, one should distinguish simple technological impossibility from fantasmatic falsity: time-travel is (probably) impossible, but fantasmatic scenarios about it are nonetheless "true" in the way they render libidinal deadlocks. Consequently, the problem with Matrix is not the scientific naivety of its tricks.The problem is a more radical fantasmatic inconsistency [...] link[ed] to a [claimed by Morpheus] failure in the structure of the universe[.]" i read this fantasmatic inconsistency as a scapegoat (by Zizek) for denying the truth of figurative identity by (Morpheus') pointing the finger at those who inhabit that space and saying no, rather than understanding that it is the "no" that is the fantasmatic falsity. jumping from one capitalism (the Matrix) to another (Zion/IO's world, fueled by the mental fuel of the anguished souls in the Matrix?). the movie/s is/are obviously bonkers SuperMechagodzilla posted:I am not deny the existence of poor people, obviously. I am asserting that IO is a very sanitized depiction of poverty or whatever: in Zizek's terms, "another boring dystopia about the remnants of humanity fighting evil machines." Submarine-style combat between distinct nations, etc. The "utopian island" protected by cloaking devices because it is unable to sustain contact with the 'outside world' is a familiar image from Black Panther, Wonder Woman, Kong: Skull Island.... i guess my point was that i am sure there are plenty of people who can relate to the first-responders surrounded by death spiders whom hope that once this 'magic' man reunites with the Lady, she breaks up with him back in IO Qualia fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 21:30
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MLSM posted:The funniest thing about Matrix 4 is how it’s ostensibly an anti-capitalist film by explicitly turning the matrix into a metaphor for capitalism (via the analyst) while still placing an emphasis on maintaining rugged individual identity — a fundamental contradiction. there is no ethical capitalism under capitalism
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Jan 11, 2022 21:50
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The Matrix films do largely portray an idealized society in Zion/IO wherein individual expression and identity is highly valued while everyone is also willing to work together or accept hierarchical leadership when its in the interest of the common good. I would hope that under communism that I would get to continue to be gay as hell.
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Jan 11, 2022 21:59
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If we interpret Neo (original matrix) as Bernie Sanders 2016 and Neo (Resurrections) as Bernie 2020, Io represents the centrist and liberal Democrats who want to keep their gains against the machines (Conservative Republicans.) This interpretation ends with a fantasy where he embraces Liz Warren / Trinity and she literally carries him to victory in 2020 before they jointly beat up misogyny and reactionary politics (as embodied by NPH.)
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Jan 11, 2022 22:07
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Trinity was a program until she was 45 years old?
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Jan 11, 2022 22:14
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| # ? May 25, 2024 02:55 |
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MLSM posted:The funniest thing about Matrix 4 is how it’s ostensibly an anti-capitalist film by explicitly turning the matrix into a metaphor for capitalism (via the analyst) while still placing an emphasis on maintaining rugged individual identity — a fundamental contradiction. The individualism of capitalism is fundamentally based around property rights ("i own this nobody else does, so i can do whatever i want with it and nobody can stop me, no matter the consequences to them"), not identity.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:15
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