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Scikar posted:He's still in the party, he just hasn't had the whip restored, which he is currently trying to challenge. And Starmer is doing his best to stall it because he knows he has no case and it's going to make him look bad. Corbyn is a decent person with good principles who has consistently stood up for the oppressed, and at this point the least he deserves is not to let the right rewrite his record. We already know he's much better at doing the right thing than he is at convincing others to do the same, it's almost cruel to pin more hopes and expectations on him that he might somehow challenge the establishment better this time around if he's head of a different party. He will be standing as an independent at the next election or not at all and the boat has absolutely sailed on correcting the record or w/e sorry. Also no one is forcing him to do politics, he could retire tomorrow and he'd have more than done his bit. Very few people have carried quite so much poo poo on their shoulders for the benefit of the rest of us.
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Jan 11, 2022 18:19
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Scikar posted:Yeah, my first response to that would be to ask if they read about him campaigning against apartheid and being arrested for it, and if that was included in things they hate him for. Jaeluni Asjil posted:I'm wary these days of saying "do your own research" as it gets used by the anti-vaxxers etc so much these days!
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Jan 11, 2022 18:24
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The "Common Sense Party" would immediately be labelled the "Communist Nonsense Party" and fail. E:Anyway the CUKs failed because of lack of grassroots support. Same for NIP and Breakthrough and whatever other new startup party. If the unions and the left of the Labour party broke off, the Corbyn years have shown that they could have massive grassroots support, plus tons of funding. They'd still have a hostile press to contend with, but that's no worse a problem than we're already facing with the status quo. WhatEvil fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 18:27
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:or another friend who thinks that there is not enough housing to go round so we should stop refugees/asylum seekers etc and 'look after our own' despite the fact there IS enough housing to go round it's just not necessarily well-served with basic infrastructure or jobs which is something political will could resolve. But addressing this problem means having arguments with otherwise 'nice' people who genuinely can't see the problem with having two large houses when some people have none, and you always look like the argumentative one for confronting them about it.
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Jan 11, 2022 18:39
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In my experience alot of people just have incoherent politics and don't associate their voting preferences with actual political or economic outcomes. Like I know very few true believer supply side capitalists, but I know lots of people who vote Tory but just want social democracy run by a sensible mid 20th century patrician
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Jan 11, 2022 18:44
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apropos of nothing: it seems appropriate for ukpol if byobpartygate is what finally sinks Boris Johnson's inexplicable career
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Jan 11, 2022 18:55
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The Guardian liberal-centrist brigade like to think of themselves as sensible and progressive but they were never going to support Corbyn and will never support any new socialist party, which is exactly why they had to turn him into a monster. There is zero point trying to win them around. But that doesn't really matter as much as some seem to think. It's kinda received wisdom in some circles now that support for Corbyn mostly stemmed from some out of touch, middle class, woke idealist constituency made up mostly of condescending students who'd never done a day's work in their life doing jazz hands from their ivory towers, but that's a total invention of the centrist imagination. A huge amount of support for Corbyn came from formerly alienated Labour voters and other generally disengaged groups, many of them very much working class.* These are the people a new party needs to win around, and also the ones it really does have a chance at speaking to with patience and good strategy. * I liked Joe Kennedy's Authentocrats on this topic. In the media's view the 'working class' are a bunch of reactionary fuckwits who like a pint and the footy and want to bring back hanging and have no time for any of this namby-pamby woke nonsense, but this fails completely to acknowledge that most of the people who cultivate that cliche flat-cap aesthetic do so purely to lend some kind of folk-legitimacy to their awful views, and are in any case usually relatively well-off small business owners or sole tradesmen. The vast majority of Britain's working class in 202 I'd really recommend reading the full book.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:02
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I mean the media still sees/portrays class as being whether you talk properly (the classical British class system) because otherwise they'd have to acknowledge the Marxist conception of class i.e. relation to capital. It's very very handy for them to be able to dismiss people as "out of touch middle class" or whatever because somebody has read a book. It's another case of talking at odds about the same concept though. Crops up all the time. Left-wing vs. right-wing populism is another one. Dismiss Trump because he's a populist, but Jeremy Corbyn is also a populist, therefore he's like Trump!
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Jan 11, 2022 19:11
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ronya posted:apropos of nothing: it seems appropriate for ukpol if byobpartygate is what finally sinks Boris Johnson's inexplicable career byobpartygate (gardengate?) is more inexplicable on that basis, because isn't that exactly what a bozza legend would do during lockdown? *one where a bunch of people die and there's some words that have to be removed from the modern publications ThomasPaine posted:I'd really recommend reading the full book. It's a perfect picture of what you're saying though. If the country were anything like the picture they're trying to paint then Leave would have won 80% of the vote, and the whole thing is a catalog of what would be schoolboy errors if they weren't deliberate (assuming that university education means wealthy professional, that it's the entire working class and none of the professional class that are driving circulation of dying newspapers, that all football fans booed taking the knee because of economic interests and ignoring all the ones who cheered).
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Jan 11, 2022 19:20
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Julio Cruz posted:they only started putting up that armour when it looked like the Tories and terfs might start getting deselected, though No, it's been like that since the Eighties, thanks to both the anti-Militant reforms and Kinnock's subsequent purges. Labour has been the least democratic party in Britain for longer than a few goons in this thread have been alive, and that has in turn led to an entrenched culture of hostility towards and suspicion of the membership that's wholly unique to it. The internal establishment of the Greens may very well try to pull up the drawbridge in response to left entryism, but the Labour internal establishment are actively trained in it by entire prior generations of bureaucrats and supported in it by a structure firmly reinforced against democratic accountability.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:26
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https://twitter.com/smtm__LFC75/status/1480937233251196928
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Jan 11, 2022 19:27
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On the upside, it definitely looks like covid cases have peaked. I wonder if the usual January post Christmas social malaise (no money, etc) is helping to cut down on mixing and hence sooner of the spread.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:31
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Imagine being a don't know
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Jan 11, 2022 19:31
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Imagine being a don't know unless they're interpreting "what difference does it make" as a don't know
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Jan 11, 2022 19:33
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Eg my friends who think JK Rowling "she seems like a nice lady and is getting an undeserved kicking" because 'women should be allowed to say what facilities women can use' for example (so I did try and argue about that one but it was like talking to a brick wall) For what it's worth, I would respond to this by asking how they feel about women being wrongly excluded from those facilities, especially if that is being enforced by men even if women set the rules. It's a really lovely argument to have though, where first trans women aren't even mentioned despite being the ones targeted, and second many people will only admit that Rowling might be in the wrong when they find out these policies harm cis women too. ronya posted:apropos of nothing: it seems appropriate for ukpol if byobpartygate is what finally sinks Boris Johnson's inexplicable career It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Boris attended a party during lockdown though, and everything to do with the fact that some of the exclusive club who the media permits to have a meaningful voice think it's a convenient time for him to be replaced.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:41
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I don't know if Boris should resign, because I don't know which oval office is going to replace him and if they're going to be worse.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:43
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one of the most remarkable aspects of the Corbyn revolution is the virtually all the 'left alternative' parties of note: Respect, Left Unity, TUSC, even the CPB - voluntarily turned over their accumulated activist networks, candidates, working relationships, etc. over to Labour for two successive general elections or even just dissolved themselves. There was a surreal period where not handing over all the keys to Labour was tantamount to betrayal of the left (the anti-revisionist CPB that once found the CPGB too revisionist to stomach! We are long way from the Cold War indeed) it turns out that there's actually very little appetite for being a niche party and all that accumulated social and organizational capital may just evaporate the moment a new Benn or Corbyn figure shows up. There is no longer a deep cultural-class demographic segmentation to underpin a distinct cultural identity, nor Soviet sponsorship to anchor a doctrine as dogged intra-Labour positioning in the era of Benn - instead those who rapidly ascended the Corbyn insurgency were longtime Labour-left loyalists who had outlasted the New Labour years, not those toiled in the alt-left of the 1990s and 2000s. And it's certainly even easier now than it was then to simply regurgitate policies out of the most recent IPPR series whilst being respectably left for that reason it's hard to foresee a new left party being engineered into existence; at least recent experience would seem to discourage it. Never mind the leader, where does the leadership team come from? of course it's ukpol so who knows, really
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Jan 11, 2022 19:46
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A party for renters against landlords, public entertainment venues against megachains, more and better public green spaces and for increased public transportation across the country. It's called the House Party and all members have to hold a can or glass of unidentified liquid whenever they're giving a televised interview or statement.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:52
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ronya posted:of course it's ukpol so who knows, really This should be the perennial thread title.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:53
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Rustybear posted:There's a million posts about how the as yet entirely notional Corbyn party can never ever ever sustain a worldwide proletarian revolution but what are the actual downsides today? This isn't about voting, this is about organising. If, in an election, you have the choice of Labour and this new hypothetical Corbyn party, it's true that might not matter much which you choose. But this isn't about that. Setting up a party takes up a huge amount of effort, manpower and money. All that would likely have to be diverted away from efforts to organise within the Labour party, and likely everyone involved would be proscribed and blacklisted from participating in the LP for a long time, if not forever. This means that a lot of the country's finite resource of dedicated activists would now be working on this instead of within the Labour Party, essentially indefinitely. One of the big problems the left has had within Labour is a colossal Generation X-shaped hole. There's a bunch of old boomer lefties, like Jeremy himself, or John McDonnell and Diane Abbott. And there's obviously loads of Millennials (and even Gen Zers now) from the Corbyn movement. But there's almost no one born in the 60s-70s there because the left pretty much abandoned Labour in the 80s, 90s and 2000s. This is a large part of why the party is so hostile now - there's almost no one on the left who is middle aged, which is pretty much the prime of your life in political terms. The issue is that giving up on Labour and starting a new party means losing yet another generation of leaders within it, making Labour even more right wing and solidifying that potentially for many decades. I don't want to debate how likely that can be avoided or if it's impossible for the left to succeed within Labour at all, ever, because we've been over it a million times in this thread. But my point is that setting up a new party is not a "no downsides" concept. There are significant things that can be lost by doing it. If you think it's worth it, fine. But there is significant risk involved.
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Jan 11, 2022 19:57
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It seems rather disingenuous to just parse that as "the left" just magically deciding to "abandon labour" as if there is no reason why that happened, or as if it is somehow avoidable by just arbitrarily deciding not to.
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Jan 11, 2022 20:05
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Comrade Fakename posted:and likely everyone involved would be proscribed and blacklisted from participating in the LP for a long time, if not forever. This means that a lot of the country's finite resource of dedicated activists would now be working on this instead of within the Labour Party, essentially indefinitely. Yeah but having a problem with is predicated on the current incarnation of the Labour Party achieving anything positive whatsoever, which they seem determined to show us that they will not. "Wait around for another 30 years and we might have a chance of repeating the Corbyn debacle" is not a compelling reason to keep Labour alive. WhatEvil fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 20:10
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ThomasPaine posted:...So you get the hilarious situation of someone working as a minimum wage barista being dismissed as some effete middle-class snob because they read a book occasionally, while some boomer landlord with forty buy-to-let properties is held up as a salt of the earth voice of the people because he likes an ale and has a whippet... Scikar posted:It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Boris attended a party during lockdown though, and everything to do with the fact that some of the exclusive club who the media permits to have a meaningful voice think it's a convenient time for him to be replaced.
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Jan 11, 2022 20:24
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Comrade Fakename posted:This isn't about voting, this is about organising. If, in an election, you have the choice of Labour and this new hypothetical Corbyn party, it's true that might not matter much which you choose. And staying in Labour there is no hope, so hey, better to try & fail than accept that nothing can change.
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Jan 11, 2022 21:01
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my MP big jum shunnun was crying again today in the commons https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-59949967 he shows remarkable sensitivity for a man who's spent so much time in slaughterhouses
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Jan 11, 2022 21:13
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forkboy84 posted:And staying in Labour there is no hope, so hey, better to try & fail than accept that nothing can change. And in starting a new party there is no hope, so hey, better to try and build in the Labour Party and fail than accept nothing can change.
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Jan 11, 2022 21:22
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Darth Walrus posted:No, it's been like that since the Eighties, thanks to both the anti-Militant reforms and Kinnock's subsequent purges. Labour has been the least democratic party in Britain for longer than a few goons in this thread have been alive, and that has in turn led to an entrenched culture of hostility towards and suspicion of the membership that's wholly unique to it. The internal establishment of the Greens may very well try to pull up the drawbridge in response to left entryism, but the Labour internal establishment are actively trained in it by entire prior generations of bureaucrats and supported in it by a structure firmly reinforced against democratic accountability. The idea that politics could have drifted so far to the right that hundreds of thousands of ordinary private citizens would flood to give oxygen to the tiniest spark of moderate social democracy was nowhere on the radar. See e.g. opening up the leadership elections to any registered supporter in the belief that it would prevent another dangerous radical like Ed Miliband leading the party.
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Jan 11, 2022 21:40
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Comrade Fakename posted:And in starting a new party there is no hope, so hey, better to try and build in the Labour Party and fail than accept nothing can change. let us know how that's getting on for you
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Jan 11, 2022 21:50
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Comrade Fakename posted:And in starting a new party there is no hope, so hey, better to try and build in the Labour Party and fail than accept nothing can change. Have you managed to not notice anything the Labour Party has done in the last 40 years
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Jan 11, 2022 21:52
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Hello mates, so many of you were nice to me last night that I wanted to check in and say I'm feeling better today. Our new manager started, she seems all right so far. I still badly need to get out of this job, but I no longer feel like I need to do that *right this minute* with nowhere to jump to. Also I just had some milky way stars and they are my favourite. Thanks again friends.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:15
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Julio Cruz posted:let us know how that's getting on for you How’s it getting on for the list of parties I posted earlier?
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Jan 11, 2022 22:18
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Comrade Fakename posted:How’s it getting on for the list of parties I posted earlier? the ones who weren't set up by extremely popular sitting MPs, you mean?
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Jan 11, 2022 22:20
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forkboy84 posted:And staying in Labour there is no hope, so hey, better to try & fail than accept that nothing can change. Comrade Fakename posted:And in starting a new party there is no hope, so hey, better to try and build in the Labour Party and fail than accept nothing can change.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:23
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Comrade Fakename posted:How’s it getting on for the list of parties I posted earlier? I’ve been pretty emphatically clear in the past that Labour needs to just loving die because FPTP means they’re squatting on the real estate that a real left/wing party could be occupying. Even if none of the current leftist parties ends up taking that place, anything that cuts off Labour’s oxygen is fine with me.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:26
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TACD posted:this country is a dead-end Fixed that for you. Sigh.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:28
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So are there any news at all about the Tolerant and Inclusive Britain Fighting for Justice Coalition, or are y'all just theorycrafting?
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Jan 11, 2022 22:28
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Julio Cruz posted:the ones who weren't set up by extremely popular sitting MPs, you mean? Which extremely popular MP do you mean? The guy who most of the country has been convinced into thinking is an anti-semitic monster? I love Jeremy but no, I don’t think he’s going to win the country over by sheer force of personality.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:28
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HopperUK posted:Hello mates, so many of you were nice to me last night that I wanted to check in and say I'm feeling better today. Our new manager started, she seems all right so far. I still badly need to get out of this job, but I no longer feel like I need to do that *right this minute* with nowhere to jump to. Also I just had some milky way stars and they are my favourite. Thanks again friends. I discovered a while back that they do make such a thing as nougat without nuts or fruit or any other abominations to the one true faith of processed sugar, and every time I go to whitby I keep buying the stuff. Really don't know why they don't just sell the stuff they put in sweets rather than coating them with chocolate or whatever, just let me pour the horrible food scientist goop into my face like a dog.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:31
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TACD posted:so we’re agreed, party politics as it currently exists in this country is a dead-end and the only real solution is for everybody to band together and [REDACTED] I mean, yes. Explicitly [REDACTED]. Comrade Fakename posted:How’s it getting on for the list of parties I posted earlier? So it's gone so badly & is a total loving waste of time so you're deflecting to a different question. Nice of you to be so clear. No left party will succeed until Labour dies. Thus Labour must die, because it is not a left party. And gently caress, I don't think it ever really was. Even the incredibly Edited to remove my anti-Irish phrase. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 22:34
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Comrade Fakename posted:Which extremely popular MP do you mean? The guy who most of the country has been convinced into thinking is an anti-semitic monster? I love Jeremy but no, I don’t think he’s going to win the country over by sheer force of personality. I mean the guy who single-handedly dragged the corpse of Labour to its best GE result in decades purely on the strength of his campaigning considering that your huge list of parties posted earlier doesn't have (and has never had) a single MP between them it's incredibly disingenuous to claim that a prospective party starting off with probably 3 MPs can never succeed because the *checks notes* Alliance for Green Socialism didn't Julio Cruz fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 22:36
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