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Noxville posted:I’ve been pretty emphatically clear in the past that Labour needs to just loving die because FPTP means they’re squatting on the real estate that a real left/wing party could be occupying. Even if none of the current leftist parties ends up taking that place, anything that cuts off Labour’s oxygen is fine with me. Okay? I didn’t even reply to you, so that’s why I didn’t take your views into account. That said, how does see The New Jeremy Party “cut off Labour’s oxygen” at all? Don’t actually answer that, as I said I don’t want to have this argument as we’ve been over it a million times. My point was that a new party was being presented as being a concept with zero cost to the left associated with it so why not? There is a cost, a big one in my opinion. If you think the cost is worth it, fine. But there is one.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:40
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That cost presumes the alternative is the left re-engaging with labour, which, uh... does not seem to be an alternative that is actually happening
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Jan 11, 2022 22:46
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Comrade Fakename posted:Okay? I didn’t even reply to you, so that’s why I didn’t take your views into account. That said, how does see The New Jeremy Party “cut off Labour’s oxygen” at all? Don’t actually answer that, as I said I don’t want to have this argument as we’ve been over it a million times. My point was that a new party was being presented as being a concept with zero cost to the left associated with it so why not? There is a cost, a big one in my opinion. If you think the cost is worth it, fine. But there is one. so what is this cost that's so high that it's better to stay in Labour and try to sandpaper down the loving Alps
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Jan 11, 2022 22:48
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The possible outcomes are not, I think, the left engaging with a new party, or staying with labour and trying to fix it. The possible outcomes very much appear to be labour working very hard to, and succeeding in, driving away its left wing support, causing them to simply not be active at all in electoral politics (and probably not in politics in a wider sense, there being few other available avenues for political action in this country), and labout working very hard to, and succeeding in, driving away its left wing support, causing them to engage with other parties. I think very demonstrably that "stay in labour and fix it" is not on the cards at any point for a great many people, and I continue to think it is quite silly bordering on insulting to characterise this as just the feckless left not knowing where their loyalties ought to lie.
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Jan 11, 2022 22:53
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The cost is the Actually Good MPs & members that Labour has no longer having a voice, it's a real cost. It'd be easier to take that argument to a "better things aren't possible" centrist conclusion, but basically from where I'm sitting it looks like using Labour as a vehicle for social change is exactly as implausible as using a new left wing party as a vehicle for social change, either are still noble goals, & whilst I guess it makes sense for people in the latter camp to get aggro with people in the former camp since they explicitly see them as an obstacle, considering the latter camp's path relies on the every individual leftist individually spontaneously getting on board with the same plan, & having met leftists, it doesn't seem like a very productive use of energy. As soon as there's a viable alternative, sure, I'm right on board, but until then I'm sticking with the implausible option that doesn't come at a significant cost (whilst also organising elsewhere in the hope that something viable does emerge)
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Jan 11, 2022 22:59
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I remain unconvinced that they "have a voice" at the moment other than to the degree that I can talk to myself using my voice.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:02
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30-something MPs is a voice e: also we all know that Starmer's gonna crash and burn at some point, none of us know what's gonna come after, likely there'll be battles to be fought - & likely the left will lose, but it's still a battle worth fighting Borrovan fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 23:04
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Noxville posted:I’ve been pretty emphatically clear in the past that Labour needs to just loving die because FPTP means they’re squatting on the real estate that a real left/wing party could be occupying. Even if none of the current leftist parties ends up taking that place, anything that cuts off Labour’s oxygen is fine with me. If the Labour Party disappeared tomorrow the mantle of caretakers while the Tories are forced onto the naughty step will be instantly taken up by the Lib Dems and leftist parties will still be alternately ignored and mocked by the mainstream.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:05
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well right now Corbyn and co are sitting on the back benches and I literally can't remember the last time any of them got any opportunity to use their "voice"
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Jan 11, 2022 23:06
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forkboy84 posted:So it's gone so badly & is a total loving waste of time so you're deflecting to a different question. Nice of you to be so clear. No left party will succeed until Labour dies. Thus Labour must die, because it is not a left party. And gently caress, I don't think it ever really was. Even the incredibly I guess to explicitly answer that question, if you really need the incredible subtleties of what I said explained, I would say “pretty bad at the moment but still closer to actually effecting government than the left in any other party in this country’s history”. I really don’t want to engage with you about this since you get so antagonistic and unpleasant about it, but neither you nor anyone else in this thread was saying that Labour had to die just two and a half years ago. That’s because the impossible that thing that could never happen ever ever was true then, the left held the leadership of the Labour Party. We can do that again, and to make it sustainable once we do, we need to build the infrastructure and leadership internally now so it’s not just weirdo right wingers controlling the party levers.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:08
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Borrovan posted:30-something MPs is a voice Except they're all too craven to speak out against the right wing leadership, suggesting that they're either not as left-wing as all that or don't have a voice to the extent that it matters. Meanwhile Keith's blowing every dogwhistle he can find, smashing the "more cops" button repeatedly, going full-on "work, family, homeland" with his messaging, ignoring outright and open transphobia and islamophobia in the party. goddamnedtwisto posted:If the Labour Party disappeared tomorrow the mantle of caretakers while the Tories are forced onto the naughty step will be instantly taken up by the Lib Dems and leftist parties will still be alternately ignored and mocked by the mainstream. Sure but how is that meaningfully any worse than the current incarnation of the Labour Party?
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Jan 11, 2022 23:09
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HopperUK posted:Hello mates, so many of you were nice to me last night that I wanted to check in and say I'm feeling better today. Our new manager started, she seems all right so far. I still badly need to get out of this job, but I no longer feel like I need to do that *right this minute* with nowhere to jump to. Also I just had some milky way stars and they are my favourite. Thanks again friends. Glad to hear it Hopper! Take care of yourself.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:09
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Julio Cruz posted:so what is this cost that's so high that it's better to stay in Labour and try to sandpaper down the loving Alps https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3989370&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=45#post520628569
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Jan 11, 2022 23:09
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I want kier to become PM so I can find out what kind of weird sex poo poo he's into
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Jan 11, 2022 23:10
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I want kier to become PM so I can find out what kind of weird sex poo poo he's into socks on, sock suspenders on, lights off
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Jan 11, 2022 23:14
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WhatEvil posted:Sure but how is that meaningfully any worse than the current incarnation of the Labour Party? I'm just pointing out that Labour aren't, as Noxville suggested, occupying a space that would otherwise be held by Untitled Socialist Party, they're occupying the exact space that the media and power structures have reserved for them - neoliberalism's night shift, just there to keep things ticking over when the Tories get a bit too mask-off to keep the proles happy.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:15
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Do we suppose that the SCG would vote against bad legislation, were they in a position to block it under a starmer government, on the basis that it was bad legislation? Because I really do not think they would, I have seen nothing to suggest they would do this, or perhaps more importantly, that if they did they would not simply be replaced. I think, that as they have been for almost their entire tenure as MPs, they are simply a way to prop up the central body of the labour party, effectively indistinguishable from a marketing gimmick to the left. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 23:15
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e: ^^^they have consistently voted against bad legislation before  Julio Cruz posted:well right now Corbyn and co are sitting on the back benches and I literally can't remember the last time any of them got any opportunity to use their "voice" Comrade Fakename posted:I really don’t want to engage with you about this since you get so antagonistic and unpleasant about it, Honestly I find it pretty ironic that most of the hostility comes from the people who's preferred option necessarily requires left unity Borrovan fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jan 11, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 23:16
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Lots of people vote against things when it makes no difference, my question is would they be willing to actually materially hurt the leadership over it. I doubt it.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:18
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Borrovan posted:we're not socialists because it's easy 
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Jan 11, 2022 23:28
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Borrovan posted:Honestly I find it pretty ironic that most of the hostility comes from the people who's preferred option necessarily requires left unity Nothing True Socialists hate more than other socialists.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:28
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OwlFancier posted:Lots of people vote against things when it makes no difference, my question is would they be willing to actually materially hurt the leadership over it. I doubt it. John and Dianne probably would out of spite. Zarah seems like she might, but a lot of them are basically unknowns.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:28
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Anyway, the relaunch went well: https://twitter.com/leftiestats/status/1480994354433044488
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Jan 11, 2022 23:32
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Comrade Fakename posted:Anyway, the relaunch went well: Well the Don't Knows are trending down, so at least more people have heard of him now I guess
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Jan 11, 2022 23:34
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Borrovan posted:Are you seriously suggesting that 30-odd socialist MPs is not a worthwhile thing to have, don't answer that it's rhetorical Genuinely, I think they are beaten down cowards who are not willing to shoot the hostages in the same way the Right are to do anything which might damage ~~the Party~~, so yes they are a waste of time and space because they will never get in the mud or fight dirty enough to win factional battles even if they were granted another once in a generation left leadership victory (which they're not, that poo poo is going to be locked down tighter than China now) No Dignity fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 11, 2022 23:39
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 same
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Jan 11, 2022 23:46
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HopperUK for new political party leader. This is clearly the only way to solve everyone's problems.
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Jan 11, 2022 23:57
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Failed Imagineer posted:Well the Don't Knows are trending down, so at least more people have heard of him now I guess He just needs 16 more relaunches!
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Jan 12, 2022 00:03
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When your partner says are you drunk? We'll have to wait for the results of the enquiry
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Jan 12, 2022 00:06
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No Dignity posted:Genuinely, I they are beaten down cowards who are not willing to shoot the hostages in the same way the Right are to do anything which might damage ~~the Party~~, so yes they are a waste of time and space because they will never get in the mud or fight dirty enough to win factional battles even if they were granted another once in a generation left leadership victory (which they're not, that poo poo is going to be locked down tighter than China now) Yeah. I think Corbyn's suspension is as much about keeping the other lefty Labour MPs in line as it is about Corbyn (well OK, not quite so much, but it's definitely part of it). It's telling the SCG that if you step out of line, we'll find a reason to suspend or expel you.
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Jan 12, 2022 00:11
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Just imagine if SCG MPs started giving interviews calling Kieth institutionally racist and implying voters shouldn't vote for him, finding reasons to publicly disagree with and vote against the leadership or just caused any of the havoc that the Right did in the Corbyn years to rock the boat. Well you'll have to imagine because they'll never do anything that could cause any real fallout, if they just keep biding their time their moment is sure to arrive...
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Jan 12, 2022 00:19
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Comrade Fakename posted:I guess to explicitly answer that question, if you really need the incredible subtleties of what I said explained, I would say “pretty bad at the moment but still closer to actually effecting government than the left in any other party in this country’s history”. I get aggro about it because it's an important matter. Also because I just type in a hostile manner I guess, it's never really conscious, I guess I'm just a bit of an angry dick at heart. Thing is, there's a difference between now and 18 months ago. 18 months ago the left hadn't yet voluntarily surrendered the reigns of the party to the Labour right by electing a Kieth. And now that they have it the Labour right won't give up control for another generation or more, like after Foot. The conclusion was "we gave Labour a chance and the Labour right proved they care more about stopping even the mildest form of social democratic policy than they do having a Labour left lead government". It was a worthwhile experiment that cost very little. I held back a lot of criticism I had of Labour & the leadership until after the 2019 election because I was willing to sacrifice ideological purity for something better. But now we've done tried it and it failed for a variety of reasons. I just don't see the value in trying again and again and again at the same thing. This point would be less true if Corbyn & friends hadn't completely failed to use their support from the membership & for a while a NEC majority to reform the party democracy but like most other fights with the PLP they didn't even try. We weren't given the ability to force wreckers to stand down. The PLP still decide who gets nominated to be the next leader. gently caress man, Ian Murray was photographed at the CUKTIG launch practice run before chickening out & he never lost the whip or got deselected. I do not think the Labour Party can be redeemed is what it comes down to. Part of this is obviously easy for me because I'm not a Labour person: I didn't vote Labour until after Corbyn was leader & it's hard to imagine me voting Labour again. I'm far to the left of any Labour MP since I dunno, Jimmy Maxton? And he left to lead the ILP as an actually separate party in the '20s IIRC. But part of it is just me going "yeah, things are loving bad out there for poor people, of which I am one, and I don't think we can wait for the Labour right to waste another 2 decades before getting another chance to do ANYTHING. Like, we're at the point in my eyes where accelerationism is justifiable now because we're clearly already in such a lovely position that the slowly managed decline is no longer acceptable from a least worst point of view. But I'll grant that I'm an extremist in that sense.
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Jan 12, 2022 00:27
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https://twitter.com/IamHappyToast/status/1480975626890792963 https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1481014528230019072 fuctifino fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 00:29
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Comrade Fakename posted:That’s because the impossible that thing that could never happen ever ever was true then, the left held the leadership of the Labour Party. We can do that again, and to make it sustainable once we do, we need to build the infrastructure and leadership internally now so it’s not just weirdo right wingers controlling the party levers. Starmer winning an election will cement those 'weirdos' in power for yet another generation; if you want what you say you want you should be begging for an external challenge from the left. Let them loose and loose badly.
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Jan 12, 2022 01:30
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I'm amazed that people genuinely believe Labour is salvageable. It isn't. It's hosed. If Labour did somehow manage to elect another left wing leader, then the same would happen again. The embedded right-wingers in the party would sabotage every move to the point of purposefully losing elections.... EXACTLY LIKE BEFORE. If Keith somehow won the next GE, then nothing would change. He's already goose-stepping the party down the same path as the Tories. A new left wing party will also fail, but that's a fault of our FPTP system and our Tory controlled media. Without proportional representation, an actual written constitution, an elected upper house and an elected head of state, buckle in. We're hosed. fuctifino fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jan 12, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 01:45
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Corbyn should just set up a party. Fuckit call it "momentum" for the brand recognition. take the SCG members with the balls to go, and a few union backers. Stand for elections in seats with melty labour MPs and aim for small gains. Simply forcing labour to adopt a strange between corbyn and the lib Dems and Tories would hurt them.
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Jan 12, 2022 01:46
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Lady Demelza posted:HopperUK for new political party leader. This is clearly the only way to solve everyone's problems. gently caress yeah, put me in charge. I will gently caress some poo poo up.
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Jan 12, 2022 01:54
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Behold, our next leader: https://i.imgur.com/AdU011i.mp4
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Jan 12, 2022 02:41
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If a new party is formed, and all the lefties leave for it, what happens? My answer: it does very badly. If it doesn’t crash and burn immediately, it will at least halve the number of socialists in government, and the remaining will slowly lose their seats by attrition, with almost no media coverage, little money, and likely little grassroots enthusiasm after initial excitement turns into limited electoral success. Labour is now completely dominated by the right (this couldn’t have gone more Luke Akehurst’s way if he planned it), and they totally cement every advantage they have. In years to come once the new party has been a disappointment, people will try entryism into Labour again. If they aren’t blocked from getting in at all (likely), and somehow manage to fluke some old lefty hanging on into the leadership again, the ordeal will go even worse than Corbyn’s tenure as there is now even less established left in the Labour Party, and almost no candidates for higher positions because everyone likely is in their early 20s. We should stay in the party because we need to build that establishment so that when we can strike we have an establishment of our own ready to go. No one thought Corbyn could win in 2015, so the entire thing was worked out on the fly for four years. Unfortunately, the environment for encouraging socialism will only get better in the coming years (unfortunately because it’s due to everything getting worse). Millennials are getting older, and able to take these leadership positions. Leaving the party might be cathartic, but it will achieve nothing. I have no interest in selling newspapers and writing magazines for 20 people.
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Jan 12, 2022 03:04
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Worth a read if you are interested in the anti-semitism accusations stuff: https://mondoweiss.net/2022/01/absurd-antisemitism-charge-against-emma-watson-has-exposed-witchhunt-strategy-of-israel-supporters/ quote:Absurd ‘antisemitism’ charge against Emma Watson has exposed witchhunt strategy of Israel supporters
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Jan 12, 2022 03:21
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