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Doomsday already took place when the Baltic states joined NATO, putting western military influence directly next to St Petersburg and in reasonable easy distance of Moscow as well. It has been 17 or so years but the plot to destroy Russia will begin shortly. What a fool Putin is to put his troops down in Ukraine, the death blow will come from Estonia.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:40
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Sinteres posted:Putting it that way isn't very reassuring that more than one viewpoint is permitted in this thread, so I'll bow out. Thanks for the warning anyway. lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 20, 2022 23:42
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Sinteres posted:Putting it that way isn't very reassuring that more than one viewpoint is permitted in this thread, so I'll bow out. Thanks for the warning anyway. Your viewpoint is that Putin is justified in the overt military actions he's already taken as well as THREATENING military action to overthrow a sovereign government because "NATO"? correct? Despite the fact that as terrible as the US is, there hasn't been a plan to invade and overthrow Russia via any sort of NATO action....ever? How is this a viewpoint? You are basically saying "How dare reality not align with my personal views"? When did NATO present a threat to Russia anytime recently? What justifies this ratcheting of aggressive military action? Did Biden or Trump suddenly threaten to use NATO as a tool to overthrow Putin that I missed? Considering Trump did more to actually weaken any sort of NATO resolve, how is Putin even considering a threat worth invading a country over? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 23:42
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HonorableTB posted:This is such a stunningly idealistic and naive view that I wonder if you've ever heard of realpolitk before That’s just a Russian MoFA talking point, nearly verbatim.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:43
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Thats just a Russian MoFA talking point, nearly verbatim. wow that one went right over my head too, lmao
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Jan 20, 2022 23:46
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CommieGIR posted:Your viewpoint is that Putin is justified in the overt military actions he's already taken as well as THREATENING military action to overthrow a sovereign government because "NATO"? correct? Despite the fact that as terrible as the US is, there hasn't been a plan to invade and overthrow Russia via any sort of NATO action....ever? You made it clear that I was treading on thin ice and might invite moderation soon if I made my argument, so I'll decline the opportunity to further pursue it.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:46
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Sinteres posted:You made it clear that I was treading on thin ice and might invite moderation soon if I made my argument, so I'll decline the opportunity to further pursue it. Dude, your argument was on thin ice as a premises in the first place. I'm debating with you I'm not going to mash buttons when debating with you. But you need to explain why your argument has any merit, since at this point its nearly all counterfactual.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:49
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Sinteres posted:You made it clear that I was treading on thin ice and might invite moderation soon if I made my argument, so I'll decline the opportunity to further pursue it. 
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Jan 20, 2022 23:50
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This whole crisis began over talk of EU relations anyway, not NATO. Talking about it from any other place than that for Russian motivations is ignoring reality as well.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:51
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steinrokkan posted:Jesus loving Christ, how ghoulish can somebody be. I don't support Russian aggression but the color revolutions absolutely were provoked by western intelligence services. They absolutely had terrible leaders and that terribleness made them weak and vulnerable. But don't think for a second that the west had any intentions other than opening markets. So if a despot gets removed and replaced with a fascist 'democracy' but the markets are open and ripe? Victory. Problem here is you're treating the great game like goodies vs baddies when it's actually just a giant game between monsters. Stop being a child and thinking there's a good side to support.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:53
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Grape posted:This whole crisis began over talk of EU relations anyway, not NATO. Talking about it from any other place than that for Russian motivations is ignoring reality as well. True, very true. Regarde Aduck posted:I don't support Russian aggression but the color revolutions absolutely were provoked by western intelligence services. They absolutely had terrible leaders and that terribleness made them weak and vulnerable. But don't think for a second that the west had any intentions other than opening markets. So if a despot gets removed and replaced with a fascist 'democracy' but the markets are open and ripe? Victory. Cool, but now you are pretending that every nation that might not want to fall under the sphere of influence of Putin is just a western puppet and that none of them are capable of any sort of self-determination, and that's already a pretty bad take.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:53
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Regarde Aduck posted:I don't support Russian aggression but the color revolutions absolutely were provoked by western intelligence services. They absolutely had terrible leaders and that terribleness made them weak and vulnerable. But don't think for a second that the west had any intentions other than opening markets. So if a despot gets removed and replaced with a fascist 'democracy' but the markets are open and ripe? Victory. What evidence do you have of western intelligence provocation and support? Am curious to see your sources
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Jan 20, 2022 23:54
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QuoProQuid posted:just to be clear, Russia’s specific demands to de-escalate are: https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en Can we go deeper into why this aren't acceptable demands? The third bullet points makes a ton of sense and I don't see that one changing any time soon.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:54
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Can we go deeper into why this aren't acceptable demands? The third bullet points makes a ton of sense and I don't see that one changing any time soon. Sure, if you can first explain why neither of involved countries deserve to be sovereign.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:55
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Can we go deeper into why this aren't acceptable demands? The third bullet points makes a ton of sense and I don't see that one changing any time soon. For one thing because Poland is a NATO member and it would preclude Poland being allowed to participate in NATO membership.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:55
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Regarde Aduck posted:I don't support Russian aggression but the color revolutions absolutely were provoked by western intelligence services. They absolutely had terrible leaders and that terribleness made them weak and vulnerable. But don't think for a second that the west had any intentions other than opening markets. So if a despot gets removed and replaced with a fascist 'democracy' but the markets are open and ripe? Victory. Literally every color revolution happened in a market economy.
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Jan 20, 2022 23:56
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Can we go deeper into why this aren't acceptable demands? The third bullet points makes a ton of sense and I don't see that one changing any time soon. would you let someone threatening to burn your house down send you a list of demands including: - none of your friends can go beyond your neighborhood - you're not allowed to decide what weapons to defend yourself with - you can't have friends and family anymore unless we agree to it too - you can't go on vacation to europe, mexico, or the caribbean anymore - you are permanently banned from marrying into a family and if you do not agree to all of these demands, they'll burn your house down and annex your backyard into theirs because thats the personal analogy to what is happening between two countries
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Jan 20, 2022 23:59
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HonorableTB posted:Sinteres, in the timeline you jumped from, did Neville chamberlain avert WW2 through appeasing Hitler and securing a lasting peace in their time? Modern historians are actually a lot more sympathetic towards Chamberlain's appeasement, viewing it as having bought essential time for the UK and the rest of Europe to fortify prior to the war.
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Jan 21, 2022 00:03
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Cugel the Clever posted:I find it interesting that this thread recently mirrors the dynamic of the Israel/Palestine thread (years back) where you'd get pretty measured discussion, punctuated by a revolving door of random shills popping in periodically to regurgitate the same tired Hasbara talking points. Is Russia a European ally?
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Jan 21, 2022 00:03
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FishBulbia posted:Is Russia a European ally? No. It's a stupid question along the lines of the same people who whine about westerners criticizing Israel but not the Palestinians.
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Jan 21, 2022 00:05
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Neurolimal posted:Modern historians are actually a lot more sympathetic towards Chamberlain's appeasement, viewing it as having bought essential time for the UK and the rest of Europe to fortify prior to the war. Imagine being worse at appeasement than Chamberlain because sinteres is doing this out of genuine belief rather than strategic necessity
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Jan 21, 2022 00:06
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Flavahbeast posted:Biden actually did say that just last night: There is already a pretty permanent block on Ukraine joining. Putin knows this, even though Washington has been hesitant to say it. He wants control over Kyiv though, not just neutrality.
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Jan 21, 2022 00:06
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Grape posted:No. It's a stupid question along the lines of the same people who whine about westerners criticizing Israel but not the Palestinians. Okay just checking. Love the "you criticize when your government does something, but not when another government which doesn't involve you in any way does something, curious" takes
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Jan 21, 2022 00:09
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HonorableTB posted:would you let someone threatening to burn your house down send you a list of demands including: That's kind of what I expected, they're completely unreasonable and at this point it seems like Putin wants a war to happen just something to spin. They didn't listen our absurd demands!
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Jan 21, 2022 00:41
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It's really important to remember that these aren't new demands though (well, it's new that they're being explicitly made). They represent the Russian view of the correct state of the world since the end of the Cold War, these are not demands that have been made up just to be rejected as a prelude to a war, Russia genuinely wants a settlement in Europe that looks like this. e: this is not to say that Russia thinks there is a chance in hell of the demands being accepted, only that within Russian international security circles they represent conventional thought Alchenar fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 00:45
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Renegotiation of INF, as far as I can tell, is happening privately in a parallel flow - those were a major part of Russia-US bilateral talks earlier this month. I think it is the only exception where Russia may agree to separate one of their demands from the others. hmmm, fair enough. i wonder if there's actually a chance of a new treaty getting ratified by congress given the general collapse of our political system
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Jan 21, 2022 00:47
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That's kind of what I expected, they're completely unreasonable and at this point it seems like Putin wants a war to happen just something to spin. They didn't listen our absurd demands! Russia's demands remind me a lot of the demands that Austria-Hungary presented to Serbia before their invasion in 1914. The AH ultimatum was purposefully designed to be unacceptable thus providing them with "cover" for their war. I think Russia has done much the same thing with their demands here, or at least they are leaving the door open for that kind of scenario. I listened to a talk at Stanford today from last week about the situation and the analyst there points out that Russia only issued these demands after the West demanded to know why they were building up troops. It seemed to this man at least that the demands were rather hastily put together and were never really reflective of any goals that Russia felt she could realistically fulfill, which has its own set of worrisome connotations. Here is the talk if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwrzophpNJA
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Jan 21, 2022 00:49
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Regarde Aduck posted:I don't support Russian aggression but the color revolutions absolutely were provoked by western intelligence services. They absolutely had terrible leaders and that terribleness made them weak and vulnerable. But don't think for a second that the west had any intentions other than opening markets. So if a despot gets removed and replaced with a fascist 'democracy' but the markets are open and ripe? Victory. What the gently caress is this, seriously. We demand NATO stops sending its semi-literate posting forces "You are a child that sees the world on black and white and thinks in concepts of goodies and baddies! Clearly the truth is that all the time that people are insanely pissed at the government that they overthrow it are schemes by CIA that are bad and weak"
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Jan 21, 2022 00:52
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spacetoaster posted:Oh yeah for sure. I'm just not sure what they would actually do if they got it back. Would they launch a humanitarian effort and open the water source? Would they come in and invest in fixing the infrastructure? Can they? spacetoaster posted:Do you think Crimeans want to go back to Ukraine? Also, what do you think Ukraine would do there if they got it back? cinci zoo sniper posted:Renegotiation of INF, as far as I can tell, is happening privately in a parallel flow - those were a major part of Russia-US bilateral talks earlier this month. I think it is the only exception where Russia may agree to separate one of their demands from the others.
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Jan 21, 2022 00:54
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Somaen posted:What the gently caress is this, seriously. We demand NATO stops sending its semi-literate posting forces I mean supporting independent media and pro-democracy organisations is inherently destabilising for an authoritarian system or managed democracy, but that's not actually the same thing as flooding a country with propaganda or organising riots or any of the other things Russia has been caught doing. These things are only 'destabilising' because these regimes are inherently unstable and lack popular support.
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Jan 21, 2022 00:55
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Alchenar posted:I mean supporting independent media and pro-democracy organisations is inherently destabilising for an authoritarian system or managed democracy, but that's not actually the same thing as flooding a country with propaganda or organising riots or any of the other things Russia has been caught doing. These things are only 'destabilising' because these regimes are inherently unstable and lack popular support. Yeah, in the context of EE the most prominent colour revolutions were Ukraine, Georgia and Kyrgyzstan in the last 30 years and they were definitely not about what the person is ranting about. Just thought it was hilariously ironic with the smugness at the end
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Jan 21, 2022 01:02
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CommieGIR posted:Dude, your argument was on thin ice as a premises in the first place. I'm debating with you I'm not going to mash buttons when debating with you. Got to come down hard on the guy making an argument you disagree with so good posts like these can continue to thrive Paladinus posted:Huh. HonorableTB posted:what (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2022 01:04
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Best Friends posted:Got to come down hard on the guy making an argument you disagree with so good posts like these can continue to thrive lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2022 01:15
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Best Friends posted:Got to come down hard on the guy making an argument you disagree with so good posts like these can continue to thrive Huh.
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Jan 21, 2022 01:15
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Best Friends posted:Got to come down hard on the guy making an argument you disagree with so good posts like these can continue to thrive what
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Jan 21, 2022 01:20
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Less white noise posting pls
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Jan 21, 2022 01:20
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:hmmm, fair enough. i wonder if there's actually a chance of a new treaty getting ratified by congress given the general collapse of our political system I’ll be very surprised if there’s an INF 2.0 this decade, mainly since I cannot imagine enough political will until at least after the next U.S. presidency’s midterms. And that may be a charitable read, since being hawkish on Russia is a cheap bipartisan play. Budzilla posted:Getting rid of short and intermediate range US weapons out of Europe should happen. It only takes 20 mins for an ICBM to travel from 1 side of the earth to the other. Having short range nuclear weapons cuts this time to minutes. Although East European states probably have different ideas. As a Latvian, I’ve only heard condemnation regarding the demise of INF Treaty. Pretty much everyone would appreciate any “mandatory” conflicts to happen the slowest way possible. Political takes from our establishment may slightly differ, but that’s because priority number one is to keep Americans happy, especially if isolationism politics take hold there. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 01:40
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One thing that's confusing me as I read along here: why is it a given that NATO wouldn't be interested in adding Ukraine? Is it purely concern about the Russian reaction, or is there something intrinsically about Ukraine that makes it an undesirable member compared with the other Eastern European countries that were added?
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Jan 21, 2022 02:05
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surf rock posted:One thing that's confusing me as I read along here: why is it a given that NATO wouldn't be interested in adding Ukraine? Is it purely concern about the Russian reaction, or is there something intrinsically about Ukraine that makes it an undesirable member compared with the other Eastern European countries that were added? NATO has a policy of not admitting members with ongoing territorial disputes, which is why Russia has this tendency of creating frozen territorial conflicts in neighbouring states.
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Jan 21, 2022 02:10
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surf rock posted:One thing that's confusing me as I read along here: why is it a given that NATO wouldn't be interested in adding Ukraine? Is it purely concern about the Russian reaction, or is there something intrinsically about Ukraine that makes it an undesirable member compared with the other Eastern European countries that were added? there is an extremely obscure anti-borscht article that many NATO members consider nevertheless the heart of the alliance
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Jan 21, 2022 02:13
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