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TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

Whybird posted:

A diver needs to be escorted to a sunken ship so he can swim down and recover the blueprints, and while he's doing that some waves of enemies will spawn. You have to protect him from them.

Cargo is being transported from one side of the map to another, if more than 75% of the cargo ships get across the shipping company will reward you with loot

The enemy's divers are extracting blueprints from a sunken ship, you need to get to them before they escape the map.

The guy who repairs your ship wants a vacation, if you finish the level with less than 25% damage he will thank you with loot for not having to spend weeks patching you up.

These are all solid bases for a mission (or maybe a conduct while playing another mission, in the case of the last suggestion), but not really a secret, I feel. A secret ought to be something where the player is poking around, notices something, and is rewarded for it. Not so much something where some dialog pops up to explain what's going on and tell the player what to do.

In any case, thanks for the suggestions, y'all! I have a few more ideas in my bag, thanks to you and Twitter. In particular, having seagulls circle above a treasure will make it possible for me to hide them in less clued positions. And having certain structures lit up, and/or having a line of buildings/buoys that you need to follow, should let me increase the "surface area" of the treasure, so the player has more opportunity to stumble onto things and follow the trail.

In completely different news, the screen-space ambient occlusion I'm using breaks down when looking at round surfaces. For example, look at the barrel of this gun:



Is this something that SSAO can plausibly deal with? Or is it just fundamentally not fixable?

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commando in tophat
Sep 5, 2019

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

In completely different news, the screen-space ambient occlusion I'm using breaks down when looking at round surfaces. For example, look at the barrel of this gun:



Is this something that SSAO can plausibly deal with? Or is it just fundamentally not fixable?

This is pretty normal with low poly geometry unfortunately (maybe some more sophisticated algorithm could deal with it better). What tends to help with low-poly round artifacts is increasing "bias" if there is such setting. This usually means that some SSAO samples with some depth/height above surface difference from center (i.e. pixel being evaluated) will be ignored. If you set it to zero, there might appear some grain or something similar to shadow map acne, if you set it too high, SSAO will disappear entirely (your image also has bright edges, so bias may be set too low, so flat surfaces occlude themselves)

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

commando in tophat posted:

This is pretty normal with low poly geometry unfortunately (maybe some more sophisticated algorithm could deal with it better). What tends to help with low-poly round artifacts is increasing "bias" if there is such setting. This usually means that some SSAO samples with some depth/height above surface difference from center (i.e. pixel being evaluated) will be ignored. If you set it to zero, there might appear some grain or something similar to shadow map acne, if you set it too high, SSAO will disappear entirely (your image also has bright edges, so bias may be set too low, so flat surfaces occlude themselves)

Thanks, I kind of figured it was a common issue. I've fiddled with the settings (including bias), but haven't been able to eliminate it entirely. One thing I noticed just now though is that a large part of this isn't the SSAO at all, but rather my material shader. Here's SSAO turned off entirely; you can still clearly see the edges of the gun barrel:



I believe this has to do with how I'm handling shadows in the material shader:
code:
        fixed4 frag(v2f i) : SV_Target
        {
            fixed4 col = _Color;
            if (_UseTexture) {
                col = tex2D(_MainTex, i.uv);
            }

            if (_UseRimLight) {
                // Apply rim lighting, as a straight bonus to color
                col.rgb += i.rampAmount * _Color;
            }
            float4 attenuation = UNITY_SHADOW_ATTENUATION(i, i.worldPos);
            // Darker when normal isn't aligned with light direction
            attenuation *= lerp(.5, 1, clamp((dot(i.normal, _WorldSpaceLightPos0) + 1) / 2, 0, 1));
            // Limit how dark shadows can get.
            attenuation = lerp(1 - _ShadowPower, 1, attenuation); 
            col *= attenuation * _ColorMultiplierMinimalist;
            if (_UseAmbientLight) {
                col.rgb += ShadeSH9(float4(i.normal, 1));
            }
            col = saturate(fixed4(col.rgb, 1));
            // apply fog
            UNITY_APPLY_FOG(i.fogCoord, col);
            return col;
        }
The normal in the vertex shader is simply normalize(UnityObjectToWorldNormal(v.normal)) Could the fragment shader not be giving me an interpolated normal, maybe? The mesh has smooth shading turned on, for what it's worth. I'm unclear on how that affects shading though.

My goal with the attenuation stuff is mostly just to limit how dark shadows can get, without having to muck around with carefully adjusting the lighting everywhere.

_ColorMultiplierMinimalist is a global color multiplier I use to accentuate lighting changes...it's mostly a relic of an old material shader that I no longer use, but it doesn't hurt anything, so I've kept using it.

EDIT: tweaking the shadow bias for the light source fixes it, of course :doh: The problem I have is that I use the same light to illuminate every part, from small anti-aircraft guns all the way through to giant ship bridges, and the same bias settings don't work for all of them.

Sininu
Jan 8, 2014

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

EDIT: tweaking the shadow bias for the light source fixes it, of course :doh: The problem I have is that I use the same light to illuminate every part, from small anti-aircraft guns all the way through to giant ship bridges, and the same bias settings don't work for all of them.
Could you show what the fixed one looks like because I'm confused about where the gun barrel edge shadow is in the no SSAO image.

baby puzzle
Jun 3, 2011

I'll Sequence your Storm.
Here's almost final artwork for a new character. What do you think? My brain is feeling a bit numb at the moment so I'm not sure what feedback I want to give at this point.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


What the hell happened to that person they look like a cancer patient who rose from the dead.

Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily.

leper khan
Dec 28, 2010
Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.
I don't know why but I'm getting old person face on young body vibes and it feels discongruous

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

baby puzzle posted:

Here's almost final artwork for a new character. What do you think? My brain is feeling a bit numb at the moment so I'm not sure what feedback I want to give at this point.







This is not posted as criticism this is encouragement. I like the design!

dhamster
Aug 5, 2013

I got into my car and ate my chalupa with a feeling of accomplishment.

baby puzzle posted:

Here's almost final artwork for a new character. What do you think? My brain is feeling a bit numb at the moment so I'm not sure what feedback I want to give at this point.



I like it! Unique and a little grotesque (not in a bad way)

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


leper khan posted:

I don't know why but I'm getting old person face on young body vibes and it feels discongruous

It's just Fingers

baby puzzle
Jun 3, 2011

I'll Sequence your Storm.

dhamster posted:

I like it! Unique and a little grotesque (not in a bad way)

Thanks. I think I agree that the body looks too young for the face. I was going for an "anti-loli" type character and I came up with the character idea around the time that Lady Dimitrescu was popular.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

Sininu posted:

Could you show what the fixed one looks like because I'm confused about where the gun barrel edge shadow is in the no SSAO image.

It's the lines running the length of the gun barrel. Here's what it looks like when fixed (with both shadows and SSAO turned on):



You can still see the lines, but you have to look a lot more closely.

Sininu
Jan 8, 2014

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

It's the lines running the length of the gun barrel. Here's what it looks like when fixed (with both shadows and SSAO turned on):



You can still see the lines, but you have to look a lot more closely.

Oh.. I thought those were intentional because of the low poly aesthetic and your other edges looked the same. In Blender it's the difference between smooth and flat shading.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

Sininu posted:

Oh.. I thought those were intentional because of the low poly aesthetic and your other edges looked the same. In Blender it's the difference between smooth and flat shading.

I am using smooth shading, that's why I was annoyed that the edges were visible :v:

baby puzzle
Jun 3, 2011

I'll Sequence your Storm.
edit: ??????????

I'm having a hard math time

e: oh I got hypotenuse and theta mixed up

baby puzzle fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jan 19, 2022

Hammer Bro.
Jul 7, 2007

THUNDERDOME LOSER

baby puzzle posted:

e: oh I got hypotenuse and theta mixed up

Started typing and glad I previewed.

I still have to bust out a napkin for any kind of trigonometry or even half o' algebra. Something about doing it on computers or in my head just doesn't click, where as soon as I can draw a little triangle I know exactly what I'm after.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
(Crossposted from the Game Development Megathread)

I need to be working more on promoting my game. Thing is, I have neither the time nor energy to really give that task the attention it deserves. Who should I talk to about exchanging money for promotional work? Specific goals:

- Build community
- Increase word of mouth
- Get press and streamer attention

leper khan
Dec 28, 2010
Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

(Crossposted from the Game Development Megathread)

I need to be working more on promoting my game. Thing is, I have neither the time nor energy to really give that task the attention it deserves. Who should I talk to about exchanging money for promotional work? Specific goals:

- Build community
- Increase word of mouth
- Get press and streamer attention

Investors? I'm only half joking. If I had something like you have, I'd be talking to all the wealthy a/o money people I know in and around the industry to help me figure out a strategy for selling it or additional contacts for someone who might help me with that.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

leper khan posted:

Investors? I'm only half joking. If I had something like you have, I'd be talking to all the wealthy a/o money people I know in and around the industry to help me figure out a strategy for selling it or additional contacts for someone who might help me with that.

I do need to follow up with my contacts, but they're very nearly all small-time indie devs, barely bigger than I am. Hell, the reason I posted in this thread is because y'all are part of my contact network! :v:

I am incredibly fortunate to be in a position where I don't need money to finish the game. I mean, if someone wants to hand me a chunk of cash in exchange for reasonable terms, I won't say no, but that's not my priority right now. I'll finish the game either way. What the game needs most to succeed is to get put in front of people who are interested in playing it.

Basically I'd like to view this like hiring a musician or artist or something, except that instead of paying them for game content, I'm paying them for exposure.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Broke: Paying someone with exposure.
Woke: paying someone FOR exposure.

Had a breakthrough on how I’m gonna handle the mechanics of my RPG and make the classes feel more unique than just “generic wizard, generic warrior, etc.” I’m gonna give every class different techniques/“””spells”””, two that can be used basically any time for almost no energy/mana (one might be weapon-type specific, maybe), two that costs a bit of energy (one of which is CHARACTER specific, but class independent) and one that costs a lot of energy, with more skills unlocked as they level up.

The canny among you may recognize this system: It’s basically the At-Will/Encounter/Daily system from D&D 4e.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
Quick update on the marketing/PR thing -- I reached out to GlassBottomMeg, a.k.a. Shalinor, developer of SkateBIRD, and she said she used Stride PR for SkateBIRD. I'm still interested in other recommendations y'all might have, so I can do some comparing.

girl dick energy posted:

Had a breakthrough on how I’m gonna handle the mechanics of my RPG and make the classes feel more unique than just “generic wizard, generic warrior, etc.” I’m gonna give every class different techniques/“””spells”””, two that can be used basically any time for almost no energy/mana (one might be weapon-type specific, maybe), two that costs a bit of energy (one of which is CHARACTER specific, but class independent) and one that costs a lot of energy, with more skills unlocked as they level up.

The canny among you may recognize this system: It’s basically the At-Will/Encounter/Daily system from D&D 4e.

Yeah, this is an excellent approach. In particular, giving martial classes (fighter, rogue, etc.) Cool Buttons they can press goes a long way to addressing the common power imbalance between martials and casters.

Another thing you can do is let characters recover energy by performing their basic class action. This is basically how the Tales games handle it -- special abilities cost TP, and you recover TP by using basic attacks (and also by winning fights, eating food, resting at inns, etc). But you could make it so that e.g. the cleric's basic class action is a minor healing spell, or the rogue's basic action is to hide, increasing their next attack's power.

leper khan
Dec 28, 2010
Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I do need to follow up with my contacts, but they're very nearly all small-time indie devs, barely bigger than I am. Hell, the reason I posted in this thread is because y'all are part of my contact network! :v:

I am incredibly fortunate to be in a position where I don't need money to finish the game. I mean, if someone wants to hand me a chunk of cash in exchange for reasonable terms, I won't say no, but that's not my priority right now. I'll finish the game either way. What the game needs most to succeed is to get put in front of people who are interested in playing it.

Basically I'd like to view this like hiring a musician or artist or something, except that instead of paying them for game content, I'm paying them for exposure.

Look into the costs of local radio ads in various metros. Anywhere you have enthusiasts about something that might translate, look into niche media (navy zines?) and how much they charge for ads.

The only way I know how to get a return on influencers involves tons of money. Ideally you're looking for highly engaged demographics that other people aren't trying to monetize. Ask a marketing person how to track effectiveness of your various campaigns. If you can figure out what's working, you know where/how to burn more cash. But you're probably going to need a pile of cash, especially if you need help putting together the creative/ad stuff.

Scale of budgets I'm used to in commercial dev often spends significantly more on marketing than dev, unless the initial numbers are so bad the thing gets cut.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
I'm not going to try to do the marketing myself. I do not have the time and energy to put into it, nor do I have the skillset. I'm explicitly looking to hire someone else to do it for me, and therefore looking for recommendations for which people to hire.

dhamster
Aug 5, 2013

I got into my car and ate my chalupa with a feeling of accomplishment.
https://supercombo.gg/2022/01/20/mega-knockdown-taking-its-my-turn-now-too-literally/?s=09

Woke up to see this, pretty cool. Guy really went in depth into the game system and did a thoughtful writeup.

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

dhamster posted:

https://supercombo.gg/2022/01/20/mega-knockdown-taking-its-my-turn-now-too-literally/?s=09

Woke up to see this, pretty cool. Guy really went in depth into the game system and did a thoughtful writeup.

Yeah that's really cool, love how they had to finish with a comment on how you are one of the few games that don't need rollback netcode.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
That's great! Here's hoping it gets you some extra visibility.

If a streamer wanted to play the game right now, how hard would it be for them to find someone to play against?

baby puzzle
Jun 3, 2011

I'll Sequence your Storm.
My artist added some more details to her body. Does it look a bit more cohesive now?

Your Computer
Oct 3, 2008




Grimey Drawer
i think it's a really cool design!

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

baby puzzle posted:

My artist added some more details to her body. Does it look a bit more cohesive now?



Face matches much more easily with the body now. My immediate read on the character is that they've gone too deep down the well of technology and it has taken a toll on their very being, and that they aren't particularly upset about that fact.

LoboFlex
Aug 26, 2004

oh, okay
Alright, so here's an island:



It's got two forests, two open grasslands, a marsh and a hill.

Which of these do you think makes the most sense:

A) There are 4 biome types and 6 different biomes, and the entire island is a region.
B) There are 4 biomes and 6 different biotopes, and the entire island is a region.
C) There are 4 biomes and 6 different regions, and the entire island is... a sector...?
D) There are 4 biomes and 6 different habitats, and the entire island is an ecosystem.
E) something else?

Since the game I'm working on is "A game about building biomes/biotopes/regions/________" I kinda feel like I need to get it right.

Up until recently I've happily gone with option A, since that's what Minecraft and Dwarf Fortress seems to use, but a tester was quite adamant that this is wrong, and ideally I don't want to be a big dumb baby.
Option B seems to be technically correct, or at least the Wikipedia article for biomes says that biotopes are "a concrete geographical unit", but apparently biotopes can also just mean a rock or a garden or whatever, and I'm not sure how common that word is.
Option C could work, but "A game about building regions" doesn't sound very exciting, and I'm already using that word for the entire "map".

Please help, I've run out of Wikipedia articles and I'm not getting anything done. :ohdear:

Edit: added option D.

LoboFlex fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jan 21, 2022

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.

I think calling the island a region and the environmental types biome makes sense so finding a good name for the parts that make up a region is the issue right? Zone could work but is bit artificial/ gamey, would District work? "A game about building/developing districts" could work depending on what type of building you mean.

But really I'd suggest looking at names for administrative areas rather than environmental for that section.

Hel fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Jan 21, 2022

TIP
Mar 21, 2006

Your move, creep.



no matter what you do some nerd will be mad somewhere, I'd just go with the jargon that's commonly used in popular games because it will probably get the concepts across more clearly to your average gamer than the scientifically correct terminology

LoboFlex
Aug 26, 2004

oh, okay

Hel posted:

I think calling the island a region and the environmental types biome makes sense so finding a good name for the parts that make up a region is the issue right? Zone could work but is bit artificial/ gamey, would District work? "A game about building/developing districts" could work depending on what type of building you mean.

But really I'd suggest looking at names for administrative areas rather than environmental for that section.


There are no buildings in the game (at the moment atleast), it's all about building the landscape itself. Here's a quick video, its all placeholders for now:

https://i.imgur.com/7LFXDKI.mp4

districts would be a great name, but since it's all about building the biomes/biotopes/whatever, and not administrative regions I'm not so sure.

It'd be nice to hear what others think though, even if yeah, I might just go with "biomes" since its accepted in videogames and that's it.

kirbysuperstar
Nov 11, 2012

Let the fools who stand before us be destroyed by the power you and I possess.

LoboFlex posted:

There are no buildings in the game (at the moment atleast), it's all about building the landscape itself. Here's a quick video, its all placeholders for now:

https://i.imgur.com/7LFXDKI.mp4

drat that's slick

SerthVarnee
Mar 13, 2011

It has been two zero days since last incident.
Big Super Slapstick Hunk
Oh. Oh no. Oh nonono, I have other things I need to do every day you know. Do you know what this sort of game could do to my available spare time?

So where do we throw money at you and when can we have it?

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008
I'll toss into the mix 4 biome types with six different biomes, the island is an ecosystem. When you tell people the game is about building ecosystems they'll either envision something cool as hell (which should be a pretty accurate description of your game!) Or they'll think you're some kinda cyber hippy and stop listening.

ynohtna
Feb 16, 2007

backwoods compatible
Illegal Hen

LoboFlex posted:

There are no buildings in the game (at the moment atleast), it's all about building the landscape itself. Here's a quick video, its all placeholders for now:

https://i.imgur.com/7LFXDKI.mp4

districts would be a great name, but since it's all about building the biomes/biotopes/whatever, and not administrative regions I'm not so sure.

It'd be nice to hear what others think though, even if yeah, I might just go with "biomes" since its accepted in videogames and that's it.

This looks like catnip to me, an autist. :lovebird:

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


If I wanted to be a huge grognard about terminology while still being understandable and leaning heavily on the nature terminology, I would say you have 6 habitats, 4 biomes and one ecosystem.

But 99% of players aren't going to care.

LoboFlex
Aug 26, 2004

oh, okay
Aw shucks you guys :3:

reignofevil posted:

I'll toss into the mix 4 biome types with six different biomes, the island is an ecosystem. When you tell people the game is about building ecosystems they'll either envision something cool as hell (which should be a pretty accurate description of your game!) Or they'll think you're some kinda cyber hippy and stop listening.

Hey, thats good! I've generally been calling the whole thing a landscape building game, but there are some animals involved (and possibly a human element when I get that that far), so ecosystem is a better fit!

I imagine that each player has an overarching world that's divided into regions, and that the regions fit into a grid on a world map. Each region would be of a certain size, but if the player has "unlocked" two neighbouring regions then they might grow into each other somehow. The goal being that each game played is kept, and that you have a reason to revisit old games (if you want). It might just end up being feature creep though, so if all games are one-off then I'd much rather call them ecosystems like you suggested.


KillHour posted:

If I wanted to be a huge grognard about terminology while still being understandable and leaning heavily on the nature terminology, I would say you have 6 habitats, 4 biomes and one ecosystem.

But 99% of players aren't going to care.

There are animals in the game, each of which have a distinct "AoE" which might be considered their habitat, and they don't necessarily follow the same lines as the biomes. Then again, habitat is probably a more familiar word than biotope and wikipedia does say the two often mean the same thing, so... it's valuable input, I'll add it to the list. :shobon:

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Tunicate
May 15, 2012

LoboFlex posted:

Aw shucks you guys :3:

Hey, thats good! I've generally been calling the whole thing a landscape building game, but there are some animals involved (and possibly a human element when I get that that far), so ecosystem is a better fit!

I imagine that each player has an overarching world that's divided into regions, and that the regions fit into a grid on a world map. Each region would be of a certain size, but if the player has "unlocked" two neighbouring regions then they might grow into each other somehow. The goal being that each game played is kept, and that you have a reason to revisit old games (if you want). It might just end up being feature creep though, so if all games are one-off then I'd much rather call them ecosystems like you suggested.

There are animals in the game, each of which have a distinct "AoE" which might be considered their habitat, and they don't necessarily follow the same lines as the biomes. Then again, habitat is probably a more familiar word than biotope and wikipedia does say the two often mean the same thing, so... it's valuable input, I'll add it to the list. :shobon:

I'd call the AoE their 'territory'

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