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Paladinus posted:Oh, so you just recall things, not concretely know them? And you don't know who Rusich are or anything like that? But you still decided that it would be perfectly fine to call Prizrak a communist brigate? Why is that? greyzone had an interview with a communist volunteer in prizrak, lemme see if i can help you find it! i didnt realise people were so interested in communist volunteers here
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Jan 21, 2022 16:31
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TipTow posted:Some common ground, this is kinda central to my "Russia feeling threatened by NATO" position. Though as Buttery Pastry said, and I as well, the US was also very content to ignore Russia until Russia started causing problems in the neighborhood. And then Russia decided to poke America further by meddling in their politics. I really think the only problem is that Putin refuses to give up nationalist fever dreams of past glory, in which resistance to the degenerate West is central, because without them he has nothing.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:32
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TipTow posted:Some common ground, this is kinda central to my "Russia feeling threatened by NATO" position. *looks at September 1939* 'hmmm, yes, well Hitler and Stalin were feeling threatened by Poland, complex stuff, a real conundrum I say...'
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Jan 21, 2022 16:32
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lollontee posted:greyzone had an interview with a communist volunteer in prizrak, lemme see if i can help you find it! i didnt realise people were so interested in communist volunteers here Lmao.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:32
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Panzeh posted:The NATO security guarantee wouldn't be worth much without the US providing it. No doubt. That doesn't change the fact that the U.S, which has a history of antagonism toward Russia, is the "elephant in the room" when discussion how Russia feels threatened by NATO.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:33
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TipTow posted:The Baltics were annexed six decades prior to joining NATO. Why was it an issue in 2004? The occupation of the Baltics had a material impact on the Baltics, on account of their being occupied. The Baltics joining the NATO didn't lead to occupation of Russia. lollontee posted:greyzone had an interview with a communist volunteer in prizrak, lemme see if i can help you find it! i didnt realise people were so interested in communist volunteers here I wonder what Glenn "Mushbrain" Greenwald thinks on the topic. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 16:34
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TipTow posted:The Baltics were annexed six decades prior to joining NATO. Why was it an issue in 2004? Do you know the year the occupation ended and the events that had to take place for it to end?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:34
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steinrokkan posted:Uh, that's actually a wheel of sickles, totally legitimate Communist symbol I was gonna say it puts a different spin on Russian Deputy PM Rogozin, and remove his sole qualification for running Russia's space program, but it turns out he hung out with people who used a different symbol:
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Jan 21, 2022 16:37
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One can understand that Russia feels threatened by the US without acknowledging that the nature of that feeling (ie. 'I'm no longer able to bully my smaller neighbours with impunity') is legitimate, or that Russia's methods of pushing back on the US are legitimate (democratic countries willingly signing up to a US-led alliance is not the same thing as Russia invading multiple neighbours and setting up frozen conflicts and client states).
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Jan 21, 2022 16:38
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TipTow posted:No doubt. That doesn't change the fact that the U.S, which has a history of antagonism toward Russia, is the "elephant in the room" when discussion how Russia feels threatened by NATO. I think the problem is basically Russia's idea of 'threatened' is when it can't invade all of their neighbors whenever something doesn't go their way in said neighbors' domestic politics.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:38
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TipTow posted:The Baltics were annexed six decades prior to joining NATO. Why was it an issue in 2004? I am done, this is either bad faith or you have literally no brain. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 21, 2022 16:39
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past problems left unresolved do not just go away. NATO expansion is just one of many things that the Empire has refused to address until now, so why wouldnt it be an issue now and tomorrow?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:42
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Alchenar posted:One can understand that Russia feels threatened by the US without acknowledging that the nature of that feeling (ie. 'I'm no longer able to bully my smaller neighbours with impunity') is legitimate, or that Russia's methods of pushing back on the US are legitimate (democratic countries willingly signing up to a US-led alliance is not the same thing as Russia invading multiple neighbours and setting up frozen conflicts and client states). Thank you, yes.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:44
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TipTow posted:The Baltics were annexed six decades prior to joining NATO. Why was it an issue in 2004? What can I say, foreign policy takes a while when you're occupied by a neighboring superpower
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Jan 21, 2022 16:45
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TipTow posted:The Baltics were annexed six decades prior to joining NATO. Why was it an issue in 2004? What happened to them during the 50 years after they were annexed was the issue.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:47
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If the US responded to CSTO expanding into Mexico by making twenty-one points and threatening invasion, that would also be warmongering to an intense degree. Unfortunately, the real military aggression on display here by Russia is significantly more of a problem than the military aggression of a hypothetical thought experiment.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:49
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TipTow posted:The Baltics were annexed six decades prior to joining NATO. Why was it an issue in 2004? What are you trying to say?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:50
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Panzeh posted:If the US responded to CSTO expanding into Mexico by making twenty-one points and threatening invasion, that would also be warmongering to an intense degree. Unfortunately, the real military aggression on display here by Russia is significantly more of a problem than the military aggression of a hypothetical thought experiment. doesnt the US do that on the regular, for instance in recent history with nicaragua?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:52
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FishBulbia posted:Those cities full of gangsters pretty soundly defeated the Ukrainian army with the help of some over border gangster exchange. I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but the Ukrainian army freed almost all of Donbas in 2014 with relatively little effort. Then the Russian army went in full force and pushed them back to their old positions. Ukraine is stopped from retaking these areas by Russia, not the militias. Which is why this entire Russian propaganda schtick about Ukraine provoking poor Donbas is stupid. They are not gonna be able to take on the Russian army 1:1, ever. No matter how much arms they receive. Donbas is perpetually safe from Ukraine as long as Russia has an army stationed on both sides of the border.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:54
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cinci zoo sniper posted:What are you trying to say? Arzachel said quote:It also happened two decades ago. Why is it an issue now? Regarding the Baltics joining NATO. So I responded with what you quoted. I probably should have gone with "And
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Jan 21, 2022 16:54
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TipTow posted:Thank you, yes.
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Jan 21, 2022 16:55
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lollontee posted:doesnt the US do that on the regular, for instance in recent history with nicaragua? the US support for the Contras was, in fact, a bad thing, yes, your point?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:56
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TipTow posted:Arzachel said To clarify, are you not saying that USSR was right to occupy the Baltics?
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Jan 21, 2022 16:56
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Panzeh posted:the US support for the Contras was, in fact, a bad thing, yes, your point? that your allegory was weird and didnt work
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Jan 21, 2022 16:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I feel like that post is arguing against your point. It's basically saying what I'm saying, that Russian delusions are the cause of this conflict, not the actions of others. And if that's the case, then the appropriate approach for everyone else is to act as if Russia is irrationally attached to a narrative that puts them in the center of history, where they're not a has-been superpower that their rival literally forgot about the moment they fell. I'm probably not articulating myself well, which I know I struggle with. I agree 100% that Russian delusions are a cause of this conflict. But why is Putin delusional? His irredentist streak, again, didn't start until NATO's eastward expansion. In fact, most of the rhetoric coming out of the Kremlin during the '90s and early aughts was fairly pro-Western; Russia was looking to take part in the now (then?)-dominant neoliberal world order. cinci zoo sniper posted:To clarify, are you not saying that USSR was right to occupy the Baltics? What the gently caress? No, I'm not saying that at all 
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Jan 21, 2022 17:01
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TipTow posted:What the gently caress? No, I'm not saying that at all Well, what the gently caress are you saying then?!
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Jan 21, 2022 17:03
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GABA ghoul posted:I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but the Ukrainian army freed almost all of Donbas in 2014 with relatively little effort. Then the Russian army went in full force and pushed them back to their old positions. Ukraine is stopped from retaking these areas by Russia, not the militias. My point is its pretty silly to claim that Ukraine could take back the DNR when last time they tried they got their poo poo handed to them by the Russian army.
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Jan 21, 2022 17:03
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TipTow posted:I'm probably not articulating myself well, which I know I struggle with. I agree 100% that Russian delusions are a cause of this conflict. But why is Putin delusional? His irredentist streak, again, didn't start until NATO's eastward expansion. In fact, most of the rhetoric coming out of the Kremlin during the '90s and early aughts was fairly pro-Western; Russia was looking to take part in the now (then?)-dominant neoliberal world order. So you're advocating for looking at all of this as a very complex issue yet you don't recognise the fact that internal Russian politics moved towards extreme authoritarianism when Putin took over? A number of posters itt told you so and you didn't acknowledge any of it. e: oh wait, right, you're probably going to say that the said move was caused by the West Terminally Bored fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 17:08
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Terminally Bored posted:So you're advocating for looking at all of this as a very complex issue yet you don't recognise the fact that internal Russian politics moved towards extreme authoritarianism when Putin took over? A number of posters itt told you so and you didn't acknowledge any of it. there is no demand to adopt your point of view here i think, except for the unstated pressure implied
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Jan 21, 2022 17:11
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Terminally Bored posted:So you're advocating for looking at all of this as a very complex issue yet you don't recognise the fact that internal Russian politics moved towards extreme authoritarianism when Putin took over? A number of posters itt told you so and you didn't acknowledge any of it. Russian politics did not turn toward extreme authoritarianism the moment Putin took over, and no one made that point to me.
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Jan 21, 2022 17:12
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Well, it started turning towards authoritarianism when Yeltsin literally had tanks shell the parliament, but Putin's rule marked complete takeover of any significant media opposed to the regime.TipTow posted:I'm probably not articulating myself well, which I know I struggle with. I agree 100% that Russian delusions are a cause of this conflict. But why is Putin delusional? His irredentist streak, again, didn't start until NATO's eastward expansion. In fact, most of the rhetoric coming out of the Kremlin during the '90s and early aughts was fairly pro-Western; Russia was looking to take part in the now (then?)-dominant neoliberal world order. You might want to look up the little place called Transnistria. Or to learn something about how even "liberal" Russians view Ukrainians. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jan 21, 2022 |
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Jan 21, 2022 17:12
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lollontee posted:there is no demand to adopt your point of view here i think, except for the unstated pressure implied Right, so this is probably the point at which you should start discussing the message and not the medium. Because otherwise you post nothing but white noise.
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Jan 21, 2022 17:13
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i would like to hear how the hell russia couldnt see Imperial behaviour towards russia, and quite literally in russia during the yeltsin occupation, as hostile. because i keep reading posts where i feel like the implication is that the west hasnt made any hostile military or economic moves towards russia since the soviet union fell
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Jan 21, 2022 17:15
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Do you know what, maybe I shouldn't just believe propaganda about the brave communist fighters of Prizrak, and instead should see how they themselves choose to be seen on social media. On one hand, they repost anti-Semitic conspiracy theory videos.  But on the other hand, they really love Stalin. 
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Jan 21, 2022 17:18
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Stalin also loved anti-semitic conspiracy theories tbf
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Jan 21, 2022 17:19
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lollontee posted:i would like to hear how the hell russia couldnt see Imperial behaviour towards russia, and quite literally in russia during the yeltsin occupation, as hostile. because i keep reading posts where i feel like the implication is that the west hasnt made any hostile military or economic moves towards russia since the soviet union fell Russia is preparing to invade a neighboring country because they want a sphere of influence like it's 1945 again, and the west are the imperialist ones how?
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Jan 21, 2022 17:20
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Russia is defending itself by moving it's border closer to NATO
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Jan 21, 2022 17:20
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Paladinus posted:Do you know what, maybe I shouldn't just believe propaganda about the brave communist fighters of Prizrak, and instead should see how they themselves choose to be seen on social media. um, so in case you wanna go and run with this thing, it was an interview of Hunter of the Vostok battalion, but i dont think i should say more than that now
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Jan 21, 2022 17:20
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TipTow posted:I'm probably not articulating myself well, which I know I struggle with. I agree 100% that Russian delusions are a cause of this conflict. But why is Putin delusional? His irredentist streak, again, didn't start until NATO's eastward expansion. In fact, most of the rhetoric coming out of the Kremlin during the '90s and early aughts was fairly pro-Western; Russia was looking to take part in the now (then?)-dominant neoliberal world order.
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Jan 21, 2022 17:23
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Russia is preparing to invade a neighboring country because they want a sphere of influence like it's 1945 again, and the west are the imperialist ones how? your paranoid delusions of russian invasion of ukraine do not argument good make although there is something to be said of the ability of certain people to psycically will things upon reality, such as wmd's and reasons for ukrainian armed nazis to try and move the front lines
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Jan 21, 2022 17:23
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