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kitten emergency posted:do you agree with this statement: “the right of these seven individuals to make more money outweighs the right of people who may need their care in the next 90 days to live” the right of these seven individuals to determine when and how to sell their labor outweighs their previous employer’s attempts at punitive action via the legal system in a “right to work” state
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Jan 23, 2022 20:18
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Blinkz0rz posted:the right of these seven individuals to determine when and how to sell their labor outweighs their previous employer’s attempts at punitive action via the legal system in a “right to work” state you can’t just handwave away the human factors and effects, this isn’t a perfectly frictionless spherical cow.
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Jan 23, 2022 20:22
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Jan 23, 2022 20:26
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that elephant came from a right to work jungle and had every right to leave for a better paying job at the circus
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Jan 23, 2022 20:32
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raminasi posted:their argument is completely cogent. the disagreement is over whether the correct immediate “remedy” for this acute manifestation of a lovely health care labor system is capital continuing to abuse labor or some stroke victims probably dying. nobody should be happy with either outcome. that part yes, the techbro ip theft is not
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Jan 23, 2022 20:36
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mediaphage posted:that part yes, the techbro ip theft is not it was a stretch (I even said it was earlier!) because someone brought up noncompetes
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Jan 23, 2022 20:42
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kitten emergency posted:you can’t just handwave away the human factors and effects, this isn’t a perfectly frictionless spherical cow. you certainly are by not acknowledging that thedacare is de facto imprisoning these employees in their old job by preventing them from assuming their new one i asked about what would happen if they all went to another hospital or just decided to quit entirely because the reality is we would likely see another injunction against them leaving before the arbitrary 90 day window is up thedacare owns this and if they can’t live up to their responsibilities to their patients that’s on them, not seven employees that they poo poo on enough times to cause them all to want to leave
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Jan 23, 2022 20:47
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absolutely loving shocking to hear someone argue that a company not paying its employees enough means it's the employees part of that company's patients suffer. completely loving wild broke brained thinking.
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Jan 23, 2022 20:51
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truism: the health care system is hosed up and needs reformation another truism: the way to do this such that it is effective and helpful is definitely to not start from the bottom up and drag the bottom of the pyramid into court. let's sue the poo poo out of some CEOs before we start waving injunctions at loving laborers
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Jan 23, 2022 20:52
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Jonny 290 posted:let's sue the poo poo out of some CEOs yes, "sue"
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Jan 23, 2022 20:53
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Blinkz0rz posted:you certainly are by not acknowledging that thedacare is de facto imprisoning these employees in their old job by preventing them from assuming their new one but they aren’t, as we’ve discussed many times, “imprisoning them in their old jobs” because from the evidence at hand they did indeed quit as of Friday. if we were talking about something completely different then yeah I’d probably have a different opinion, but we can’t really discuss things if we’re talking about what actually happened vs. what we think actually happened or what our headcanon of a situation is. the injunction is not against them, it’s against their new employer. this isn’t a distinction without difference even if you don’t like it. if the injunction was against them, personally, by name, I would agree with you completely that it’s unjustified and unconstitutional (and also illegal), but it’s not.
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Jan 23, 2022 20:53
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i do appreciate that someone is deviles advocating to death the possibility of going "people are dying" to motivate everything and anything stupid from here.
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Jan 23, 2022 20:55
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only an argument if there is a wide range of opportunities for them after Previous Job. I assume this is an extremely specialized field and they didn't slap an injunction on one of the eight other opportunities they have in town. if that other place is their only reasonable destination without relocating or something like that, it's de facto forced labor. it'd be like if walmart moved into a small town and made all the quitting employeees sign a noncompete saying they can't work at the other retail grocery store in town. What the gently caress else are they going to do?
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Jan 23, 2022 20:57
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Jonny 290 posted:only an argument if there is a wide range of opportunities for them after Previous Job. I assume this is an extremely specialized field and they didn't slap an injunction on one of the eight other opportunities they have in town. if that other place is their only reasonable destination without relocating or something like that, it's de facto forced labor. yes if this thing was like something it isn’t at all, it’d be different. cmon man.
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Jan 23, 2022 20:59
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like this isn’t me trying to be all “hard truths for hard times” but how the gently caress do some of y’all square posting about how we’re going to need command economies and poo poo to stave off climate change but effortlessly pivot to “well it’s their rights!” in a case where there’s a blindingly clear moral argument about the needs of the many. you think we’re just gonna Minecraft all the CEOs and politicians and things will just sorta work themselves out?
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Jan 23, 2022 21:01
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kitten emergency posted:yes if this thing was like something it isn’t at all, it’d be different. cmon man. like the corporate espionage whatever you were talking about earlier?
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Jan 23, 2022 21:01
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holding people hostage in lovely jobs by saying "but what about the babies that will die if you quiiiiiiiit" is extreme emotional abuse and the exact end goal of the lovely hosed up system they have built. that's it. im done discussing this poo poo
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Jan 23, 2022 21:03
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kitten emergency posted:like this isn’t me trying to be all “hard truths for hard times” but how the gently caress do some of y’all square posting about how we’re going to need command economies and poo poo to stave off climate change but effortlessly pivot to “well it’s their rights!” in a case where there’s a blindingly clear moral argument about the needs of the many. you think we’re just gonna Minecraft all the CEOs and politicians and things will just sorta work themselves out? precisely because collective solutions have some hope of achieving something, where whining about and shaming people for individual actions is very much in the realm of the enemies of collective solutions. your argument falls into the same category as "you can just send the irs a check if you love taxes so much". i'd also be very surprised if you couldn't save dozens of people yourself donating all your assets to african charities, but i don't argue you should, because arguing that is not really a solution.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:08
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kitten emergency posted:absent building a time machine, in this specific circumstance, how should this goal be achieved the hospital that is about to lose all its employees should say "we are currently offering $10,000 a day for nurses to come and work at our place, getting on a plane tonight and starting tomorrow morning, until we can fill the positions with permanent staff." i guarantee that will solve their staffing problem. they are using the fact that people will die if they don't do this to try and guilt people into doing the work for free, because they don't want to pay what it's going to cost to fix it. that's literally all that is going on here.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:09
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Quitting your lovely job is good and everyone should be able to do it. If the places needs employees that badly maybe make it not lovely to work there so people voluntarily choose to do it. or just ban them from working anywhere else
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Jan 23, 2022 21:13
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Sagebrush posted:the hospital that is about to lose all its employees should say "we are currently offering $10,000 a day for nurses to come and work at our place, getting on a plane tonight and starting tomorrow morning, until we can fill the positions with permanent staff." i guarantee that will solve their staffing problem. this.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:14
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:precisely because collective solutions have some hope of achieving something, where whining about and shaming people for individual actions is very much in the realm of the enemies of collective solutions. your argument falls into the same category as "you can just send the irs a check if you love taxes so much". i'd also be very surprised if you couldn't save dozens of people yourself donating all your assets to african charities, but i don't argue you should, because arguing that is not really a solution. I’m not shaming the people involved for getting better jobs, my point is - and always has been - that under the circumstances this isn’t some sort of insane outcome, or that it’s “chud judge forcing people to work at old jobs for temerity of finding new ones” that others have claimed. the court is mediating between two parties. there’s a million other things that could have, or should have happened. that said, they didn’t, and if your counter argument is “well the workers individual right to sell their labor trumps all other considerations” then I don’t think that’s a really great argument, and that it’s pretty fygm.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:15
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Sagebrush posted:the hospital that is about to lose all its employees should say "we are currently offering $10,000 a day for nurses to come and work at our place, getting on a plane tonight and starting tomorrow morning, until we can fill the positions with permanent staff." i guarantee that will solve their staffing problem. a good sagebrush post
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Jan 23, 2022 21:16
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you’re just making up the “work for free” stuff sagebrush, there’s nothing anywhere that indicates that.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:17
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work for wages that won’t support my family and work for free are indistinguishable
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Jan 23, 2022 21:17
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kitten emergency posted:you’re just making up the “work for free” stuff sagebrush, there’s nothing anywhere that indicates that. lmao
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Jan 23, 2022 21:18
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kitten. i like u and ur posting. but please just take the L here. just stop responding and let the thread move on.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:18
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also, how do the “well stopping them from working at another nearby place is basically slavery because they can’t move” arguments possibly square with “they could pay ten thousand dollars a day for temps” one, are people just going to appear out of the aether then leave? why does labor market elasticity only work in one direction here
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Jan 23, 2022 21:19
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The Fool posted:work for wages that won’t support my family and work for free are indistinguishable again, you’re making stuff up.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:20
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kitten emergency posted:also, how do the “well stopping them from working at another nearby place is basically slavery because they can’t move” arguments possibly square with “they could pay ten thousand dollars a day for temps” one, are people just going to appear out of the aether then leave? why does labor market elasticity only work in one direction here YOU'RE SO CLOSE gently caress
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Jan 23, 2022 21:20
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kitten emergency posted:like this isn’t me trying to be all “hard truths for hard times” but how the gently caress do some of y’all square posting about how we’re going to need command economies and poo poo to stave off climate change but effortlessly pivot to “well it’s their rights!” in a case where there’s a blindingly clear moral argument about the needs of the many. you think we’re just gonna Minecraft all the CEOs and politicians and things will just sorta work themselves out? I normally never post here despite reading here a lot but holy poo poo dude I think you would rather wage a war than take an L. Simply put, 2 wrongs don't make a right. It's not right what's happening to these workers, but it's not right to punish them for trying to improve their quality of life. Yes it's unfortunate that there might be collateral damage here from people not getting help, but that doesn't 1) Automatically make it the "less moral choice" or whatever and 2) Doesn't automatically mean these workers (and anyone defending them) are taking this hard line libertarian FYGM attitude. That is bad faith arguing my dude. We can all agree Thedacare is at fault here but changing them is not on the table in this specific instance. I fully expect you to nonuple down now.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:20
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kitten emergency is definitely an overpaid hospital administrative employee
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Jan 23, 2022 21:21
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kitten emergency posted:but they aren’t, as we’ve discussed many times, “imprisoning them in their old jobs” because from the evidence at hand they did indeed quit as of Friday. oh, word? well it’s a good thing the patients at that hospital won’t die since their old employer isn’t missing any nurses. You can’t argue this is about patient health outcomes if the outcome in either case is “those nurses don’t work there anymore” you complete ninny. also still waiting for you to respond to the guy that posted that these hospitals are three miles away from each other in a city of 25k get a new loving bit or get the gently caress out
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Jan 23, 2022 21:34
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mediaphage posted:shut the gently caress up you bootlicker, you come back all of a sudden agreeing that the hospital should be penalized but you still clearly don't give a gently caress about labour. also, what the poster above said
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Jan 23, 2022 21:36
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sure okay posted:I normally never post here despite reading here a lot but holy poo poo dude I think you would rather wage a war than take an L. no, you’re right, and I agree that it’s a tragic circumstance where someone is going to get hurt irrespective. even if I think that the court is minimizing harm to the community, it’s obviously doing so in an unjust way. reasonable people can disagree about whose harms weigh more, i think the court decided that the potential harms to the community they served outweighed the personal harms to the employees. i hope they can all find justice - I certainly don’t think they’re the bad actors here. i apologize for broadly tarring people who disagreed with my take libertarians/fygm-ites, but I do hope that you appreciate that you should take the time to consider an issue and recognize your biases and that you can separate the immediate situation from its systemic cause.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:37
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Berkshire Hunts posted:oh, word? well it’s a good thing the patients at that hospital won’t die since their old employer isn’t missing any nurses. You can’t argue this is about patient health outcomes if the outcome in either case is “those nurses don’t work there anymore” you complete ninny. also still waiting for you to respond to the guy that posted that these hospitals are three miles away from each other in a city of 25k I’m just going with what both hospitals said, my man, we went through the part of the thread where nobody bothered googling this like seven pages ago. (also they’re different levels of trauma center, theda has 24/7 coverage and the other doesn’t)
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Jan 23, 2022 21:39
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kitten emergency posted:i apologize for broadly tarring people who disagreed with my take libertarians/fygm-ites, but I do hope that you appreciate that you should take the time to consider an issue and recognize your biases and that you can separate the immediate situation from its systemic cause. lol gently caress you
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Jan 23, 2022 21:40
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there’s no such thing as a labor shortage, just a shortage in what employers feel like spending
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Jan 23, 2022 21:41
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SmokaDustbowl posted:lol gently caress you grow up
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Jan 23, 2022 21:42
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Berkshire Hunts posted:You can’t argue this is about patient health outcomes if the outcome in either case is “those nurses don’t work there anymore” you complete ninny.
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Jan 23, 2022 21:42
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