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Motor sailers are fine I guess, depends on your use case. They're probably good for the east coast where you need a shallow draft The guy one slip over from me lives on a motorsailer with his 14 year old son and it's got an awesome floorplan, but probably sucks balls to actually sail A J/105 is a keel boat so it's inherently not gonna sail like a dinghy, but between a J/105 and a motor sailer, the J/105 would still have sailing characteristics representative of a dinghy, whereas the motor sailer is going to be more like a sailing barge. That's mostly talking about 35+ footers Then you have stuff like the macgregor 26 which is an odd duck, I think some/all of them have water ballast. They're loving weird and I don't know why you'd want one but they built them continuously for like 30 years until very recently so I guess they scratch an itch for somebody For a livaboard motor sailer is perfectly fine, they have better layouts for that IMO. If you're gonna do weekend trips something like a Catalina might be a better option
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Jan 24, 2022 04:59
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Kenshin posted:I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with them at all if that fits your use case, but most folks consider them to be for older people who don't want to pull on lines as often. Thank you! I got an old people vibe from a lot of the motorsailers I'd browsed, just from the decor and the descriptions. Kenshin posted:You can motor just fine in most sailboats if you want. thank you, that was my understanding as well but I was questioning the reason to build or name something specific.
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Jan 24, 2022 05:02
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Hadlock posted:Motor sailers are fine I guess, depends on your use case. They're probably good for the east coast where you need a shallow draft Funny you mention the Macgregor 26, I've seen that come up a lot. Its weirdness intrigues me - it seems like it incorporates a lot of innovative features that never took off in the sailing community at large. The macgregor and other motorsailers I've seen, specifically Lancers, seem like they also make a lot of concessions to be trailerable. (I'm not getting a Macgregor) Ultimately I am looking for a liveaboard with weekend trips to Catalina. Like every other internet sailor I've got aspirations to circumnavigate, but tbh if I made the Baja Ha Ha that would be a genuine bucket list achievement. FAKE EDIT  I was googling some of the weirder features about the Macgregor that I half-remembered, and I ran across this video of a dude water skiing behind it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHneDA6vwm8&t=36s 
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Jan 24, 2022 05:14
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The macgregor 26 doesn't have any structural bulkheads (that I remember) its basically a tupperware box with a 60hp outboard engine, probably a good lake sailor to drink beers on, I've seen many in person but never stepped foot on one. They sold a lot of them though For a liveaboard maybe look at the Catalina 36? That's a reasonable sized boat, under $100k (i think, covid made prices crazy) full featured and is totally designed to sail back and forth between LA and catalina island, and hundreds have made the trip down to mexico and back. And when/if you decide to circumnavigate you can probably sell it for 75% of what you paid for it and get the right boat for that project
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Jan 24, 2022 05:22
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Hadlock posted:The macgregor 26 doesn't have any structural bulkheads (that I remember) its basically a tupperware box with a 60hp outboard engine, probably a good lake sailor to drink beers on, I've seen many in person but never stepped foot on one. They sold a lot of them though IIRC the macgregor is built like a ski boat - a combination of spray-in fiberglass and pour-in foam for positive flotation. I've never been on one either, but like you said people seem to love them. Thank you for the recommendation and I agree - I've been thinking Catalina 30 or 36. I like the encapsulated keel, the layouts are generous, and they're ubiquitous so parts are readily available. Seems like a 36 can still be flubbed around singlehanded pretty easily? I can't tell what covid did to prices specifically, but it feels like the boats i'm looking at today are significantly less expensive than they were a year ago. Also I did some research on Baja Naval in Ensenada MX, and talked to a couple of their people. Seems like a solid yard thats desperate for work in covid times with fantastic prices. Shot in the dark, but does ITT have any experience with them?
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Jan 24, 2022 05:37
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I am 99% sure there is no Catalina, certainly not the 36 that has an encapsulated keel. There's two definiitions of an encapsulated keel, 1: a lead bolt on keel dipped in epoxy (I don't think anyone uses this definition) and 2: a keel poured into a hollow keel mold that is 100% part of the rest of the boat like you'd see on a 1970s Dufour 31 or SV Delos (most/all Amels built prior to 2010) Pretty sure, especially the models in the 1970s/80s, have keel bolts that go through holes in the bilge which is pretty standard and fine just make sure the keel bolts aren't corroded all to hell which is easy to inspect. If you don't know when they were last replaced you might be due to replace them which isn't super cheap and catalina used smaller keel bolts (1/2"? 5/8"?) than manufacturers use today (3/4"? 1.0"?) doesn't sound like a lot but the extra mass gives a lot more strength/safety margin in a corrosive environment. I if you scroll through my posts I have a very scary photo of some old catalina keelbolts. I wouldn't let that scare you off though, it's just a maintenance item Most any boat under 40 feet can be single handed on a 70 degree day in 4-18 knots of wind, during daylight, especially with an autopilot. When I was 16 I was single handing our catalina 30 taking out groups of friends and stuff there's not a significant difference in the rigging between a C30 and C36. If you change any of those variables in the first sentence all bets are off, just keep an eye on the weather forecast before you go, and get a lot of experience + confidence before you attempt to solo it. Catalina 36 will get you to mexico and back no problem though, is properly maintained. Pick a boat that the owner was actively sailing, don't pick something that's been mildewing at the dock for 15 years and everything will break in the first blow.
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Jan 24, 2022 06:17
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My house bank is a conceptual mess, powering everything from lights and fridges to thrusters and anchor winch, so I've been dreading the inevitable lithium conversion a bit. But now some very high CCA rated lifepos have been hitting the market lately so maybe there's hope for a simple replacement after all? 
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Jan 24, 2022 12:19
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Neslepaks posted:My house bank is a conceptual mess, powering everything from lights and fridges to thrusters and anchor winch, so I've been dreading the inevitable lithium conversion a bit. But now some very high CCA rated lifepos have been hitting the market lately so maybe there's hope for a simple replacement after all? LFP conversions are never simple 
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Jan 24, 2022 14:19
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Rime fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2022 14:56
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Rime posted:Cons: mmm, powdery!
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Jan 24, 2022 15:31
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on a steel hull
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Again i know nothing, but I believe Cat 30s+ had a poured ballast and no keel bolts. It was my understanding this is why they get the notorious smile - the fiberglass holding the ballast weight pulls away from the hull. Speaking of horrific keel bolts, I looked at a nice I36 a year+ ago and its keel bolts were solid rust on the outside. As you said, its a maintenance item, but in my research it was also dumb expensive. Keel bolts snapping is my #1 irrational fear, so whatever I can do to avoid that (and not spend half the boats value on getting them repaired) EDIT - seems like its keel bolts and hten they put fiberglass around it.. huh. So if the bolts snapped than maybe the boat doesnt flip over and drown you instantly... Vampire Panties fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jan 24, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2022 16:00
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Rime why is all the lines aft a negative for you? Yes, as a racer I hate it, but I know the general notion of this thread is family cruising [and I know your thoughts about the near and coming future] so, what gives?
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Jan 24, 2022 16:45
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Rime fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2022 18:49
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Fair enough, just don't put clutches on the mast. gently caress, I hate that.
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Jan 24, 2022 21:08
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Vampire Panties posted:Again i know nothing, but I believe Cat 30s+ had a poured ballast and no keel bolts. It was my understanding this is why they get the notorious smile - the fiberglass holding the ballast weight pulls away from the hull. Speaking of horrific keel bolts, I looked at a nice I36 a year+ ago and its keel bolts were solid rust on the outside. As you said, its a maintenance item, but in my research it was also dumb expensive. Keel bolts snapping is my #1 irrational fear, so whatever I can do to avoid that (and not spend half the boats value on getting them repaired) Google "Catalina smile" it's been fixed on all modern boats at this point but definitively proves they're external ballast boosts Replacing the keel bolts is a two day job, put it on the hard, chisel out the soft lead around the "washer" embedded in the keel, remove bolt + washer, replace bolt + washer, patch hole with wood and pour hot lead back in. Repeat for at six or 8 sets of keel bolts Sounds difficult but you can remove the lead with a sharpened ice cream scoop and a MAP gas torch Encapsulated keels are pretty rare
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Jan 24, 2022 21:27
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Does anyone have strong opinions on a bilge plug that I don't need a wrench to remove? I'm leaning towards the kind with a T handle that look like a gas shutoff key, but mostly I've seen the expanding rubber kind around here.
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Jan 24, 2022 21:52
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My lfp conversion is going to end with 600ah lifepo4 and 1685w of solar with a 3000w victron multiplus  I'm using the victron bms and am happy with it - but my whole setup is victron. Also I'm going to have some people from YouTube help me with my rigging. I'm considering going full dyneema.
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Jan 25, 2022 00:10
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if I went full Victron for a setup similar to the one I'm planning the cost would approach 50% of what I paid for the entire boat 
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Jan 25, 2022 00:25
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Yeah, but Victron
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Jan 25, 2022 00:33
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Hadlock posted:Yeah, but Victron They do make good poo poo! I don't usually mind paying a premium for quality products with excellent documentation and software - I do have a Victron MPPT solar charge controller and will probably get a Victron DC-DC charger too - but both of those are actually sorta reasonably priced for what they are. Expensive, sure, but not unreasonably so. Their LFP solutions though are just comically overpriced. They want over 1000€ per 100Ah for their batteries, while I paid almost exactly 600€ for 280Ah including shipping from China, and I chose a pretty expensive vendor to try to ensure I got decent quality cells. Even if you consider the extras I'll have to add Victron is still well over three times as expensive just for the batteries. If I were a baller with a big yacht with a lot of integrated systems then sure, but I'm a nerd with a 70's sailboat that barely has any electronics on it. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 02:04
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Crunchy Black posted:Rime why is all the lines aft a negative for you? Yes, as a racer I hate it, but I know the general notion of this thread is family cruising [and I know your thoughts about the near and coming future] so, what gives? All lines to the cockpit is excellent when racing shorthanded / in rough conditions  Of course there aren't many lines on a shark. There are: -Main halyard -headsail halyard -Spin halyard -Vang -outhaul -Cunningham -backstay adjustment -tweaker lines -headsail sheets -spin sheets -pole uphaul -mainsheet -mainsail traveler (the last 2 are cheating they're already in the cockpit) Of course, there's a camcleat on the mast so the foredecker can hoist the spin, but that gets removed and recleated back at the cockpit before dropping the spin. I made that list mainly so I can remember what I'm replacing in the spring. Along with all the deck hardware, it appears original to the boats mid-70s production date and its not at all laid out properly or functioning well for racing Are there more lines on a j/105?
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Jan 25, 2022 02:51
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TrueChaos posted:All lines to the cockpit is excellent when racing shorthanded / in rough conditions Uhh lines that don't lead forward of the mast Cunningham Main outhaul Vang Main sheet (macro 6:1) Main sheet (micro adjust, 25:1) main traveler I've seen some people replace the hydraulic backstay with spectra/dyneema but it's rare tweakers 8 minus backstay = 7 lines that go forward of the mast: jib sheets spin sheets retractable bowsprint deploy line tack line main halyard jib halyard spin halyard 7 so 14? The J/111 and newer has "3d jib leads" which allow you to control the jib lead in three dimensions and actually sheet the jib over-top the cabin using a low friction ring for a really tight sheeting angle (not class legal for J/105, but could be technically retrofitted) J/105 technically can be rigged with a second jib halyard to you can peel it for a genoa, some people have retrofitted this halyard to run a 110 sqm masthead spinnaker (class spinnaker is 89 sq m) which would give you 15 I don't ever use nor do I think I've ever rigged the tweakers (not sure I own any, now that I think about it) even in 25-30 knots of breeze so arguably it should be 13 or 12 But yeah we have 2x3 line clutches on the cabin top just behind the cabin top winches; the vang is long enough to pull from the companionway, I think the only lines you can't blow from the cockpit is the main outhaul and cunningham The only people not running all the lines aft to the cockpit are people who don't know better, or don't have the money/time to convert,or it's some massive boat where running the lines from the mast to the cockipit is > 12 feet. I think all but a handful of lines on SV delos lead back to the cockpit big difference on a 105 and a lot of j boats is they use an asymmetrical spinnaker so there's no topping lift and no guy. j/105 have a micro adjust main sheet because the largest fleet regularly races in 25 knots with no reef and often it's the skipper driving one handed that needs to bring in the main that last 3 inches Hadlock fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Jan 25, 2022 |
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Jan 25, 2022 03:06
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Not really the typical thing in this thread, but this seems like it would make one hell of a good live-a-board on the coast, why is it so (relatively for size) cheap? https://www.yachtsalesinternational.com/boats-for-sale/1983-cheoy-lee-motor-yacht-fort-lauderdale-florida-6986847/ Is it as simple as the maintenance and dock fees would bankrupt most people? A house with that much living space in say.. San Diego, would be probably 4x the cost at least unless it was way inland.
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Jan 25, 2022 03:41
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The Locator posted:Not really the typical thing in this thread, but this seems like it would make one hell of a good live-a-board on the coast, why is it so (relatively for size) cheap? You're probably looking at at least 3k/mo to dock that thing, not including any shore power.
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Jan 25, 2022 04:01
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Karma Comedian posted:You're probably looking at at least 3k/mo to dock that thing, not including any shore power. Ah, I figured it was something like that. I suppose it would only make sense if you actually had the money to use it puttering around the world while paying at least a couple crew.
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Jan 25, 2022 04:04
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Most of the value of that boat is in it's engines. They don't list the hours on those engines so even if they do turn over it's probably not a wise idea to try and make it to the Bahamas. Repowering that boat is a six figure job, 600 HP marine diesels are not cheap to buy or maintain. That's the same kind of engine you'd find in a full size caterpillar excavator or bulldozer Boat was built in 1983 but is styled like 1960s, most people dropping half a mil on a power boat in Miami want smooth white fiberglass and black glass styling. Gilligan's island isn't really an Instagram trend right now Like most boats over 50 feet it probably costs $1200+ a month to keep it moored in an industrial area, triple that for a flashy marina, 90% of boat slips are 30' and under Would it make a great house barge? Probably. Can you push it around in calm seas with a $15,000 used 100hp outboard? Probably
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Jan 25, 2022 04:04
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That and maintenance. The 'guideline' for yachts is that you should budget 10-15% of the cost of the boat yearly to keep the boat in decent shape (i.e. that's not the budget for upgrades). So, factor in insurance, and you're looking at roughly $75k+ a year for the boat to sit at the dock as an apartment. You want to take it somewhere? Those Detroits are reliable, but not anything that could be called 'fuel efficient', have fun with a $2k fuel bill for the weekend trip.
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Jan 25, 2022 05:55
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Hadlock posted:The only people not running all the lines aft to the cockpit are people who don't know better, or don't have the money/time to convert,or it's some massive boat where running the lines from the mast to the cockipit is > 12 feet. I think all but a handful of lines on SV delos lead back to the cockpit This is what I thought, though I've only really raced sharks and the occasional C&C 27. We didn't have a blade onboard one time in something like 35knt sustained gusting past 45, just did the upwind legs on the main only after we attempted with the 180 genoa and it didn't work at all, and we didn't really lose out. Downwind we hit 14 knots surfing the waves wing on wing, after we watched 4/6 boats that launched their spinnakers almost immediately pop them. Another race, the last one of the day, wind had been building all afternoon. Not sure what it got up to, but we were planing at 11knts and hitting 13-14 with the waves. We were somehow keeping pace with a 105 that was struggling with the wind, and then they popped their spinnaker. I don't really know where I'm going with any of that, I'm just wishing it was spring so I could get back on the water.
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Jan 25, 2022 07:10
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Hadlock posted:Most of the value of that boat is in it's engines. They don't list the hours on those engines so even if they do turn over it's probably not a wise idea to try and make it to the Bahamas. Repowering that boat is a six figure job, 600 HP marine diesels are not cheap to buy or maintain. That's the same kind of engine you'd find in a full size caterpillar excavator or bulldozer Don't forget over 20' beam, so probably have to pay for a double slip OR find marinas that specialize in super yachts ($$$) Living on a boat can be cheaper than on land, if done right. That particular boat isn't the right way to do that tho
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Jan 25, 2022 13:32
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Yeah boat that big is an end tie and you play by different rules. 100' long boat slips with dual finger piers exist but I can't think of any off the top of my head. In a small harbor most harbor masters would force you to med moor as to not (literally) tie up all the tourist docks, otherwise you'd be forced over to the industrial part of the harbor to take on provisions etc My boat slip recently was 40x14 and currently 36x13, and used to be near some 50x20 slips so proportionately 90x25 doesn't sound outrageous
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Jan 25, 2022 13:50
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Hadlock posted:Most of the value of that boat is in it's engines. That's not really true. 12v71s aren't rare, some parts are getting tough to find, they're crazy loud and inefficient, and no one wants to work on them anymore. Paint them white if you want, they're Alpine Green at heart. Agreed on the rest, though.
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Jan 25, 2022 23:52
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Rime fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 00:56
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Rime posted:
The only sign of wear on that running rigging looks like a single fleck of blue on one line, everything else looks pristine, I do not see a single frayed thread anywhere and the braiding looks like it came right off the spool. If the lines haven't been used (don't look like it) they should be good for another 5+ years after a good soak Soak each line in a bucket of fresh water overnight, then run through the washing machine, will look brand new That said looks like the current owner put new lines in 2005, went sailing, got scared and never took it out again. I would be concerned that the boat has been sitting for 17 years and only left the slip a handful of times and any bolt smaller than a quarter inch is rusted in place Get the records for when they had the bottom cleaned and zinc replaced Old steel boats make me nervous, especially old steel boats with 17 year old rigging that looks like it's never been used Unless you're actively looking to sail through the eye out a hurricane and otherwise refuse to use modern weather planning technology I don't understand why you want such a heavy displacement boat in 2022 but whatever it's your boat
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Jan 26, 2022 01:13
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Rime fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 01:28
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Rime posted:I'm going off how it was stiff AF to the point it alarmed me as a rope tech, in terms of visible wear the weave was still great yes. Yeah that's just, probably*, salt build up which can be resolved with a 4 hour soak + a couple water changes. It's remarkable how fast those things come back to life *Just going off photos, obviously I've not seen it in person
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Jan 26, 2022 02:57
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Hadlock posted:
I love my 23 ton boat.
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Jan 26, 2022 03:44
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Okay aquanauts I just ordered a 36kw electric motor for the slocum, this means i actually need to pull the old diesel motor out and dreading every moment of it because i have a weak back.
wargames fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 27, 2022 |
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Jan 27, 2022 18:42
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wargames posted:I just boat 
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Jan 27, 2022 18:59
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Cut a hole in the hull and just dump it in the ocean along with the old batteries I assume you're replacing. It's perfectly legal.
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Jan 27, 2022 19:30
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Erwin posted:Cut a hole in the hull and just dump it in the ocean along with the old batteries I assume you're replacing. It's perfectly legal. going to dump the old diesel in the ocean along with the old 8d lead acids.
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Jan 27, 2022 20:06
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