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I'm a fan of both, Eternal beat me up for awhile when I started. If you liked 2016 then you at least owe Eternal a try. Don't hesitate to start at lower difficulty, the higher ones don't hold your hand and the first three levels are even a bit harder since your arsenal isn't fully formed when you start.Deakul posted:It's really hard to say. I think Eternal beats 2016 if you use a simplified gameplay loop. Always use ice grenades, use to stall big threats or pass by them/groups. Hit Flame Belch before you hit Glory Kill so that you shower yourself in armor with the health. Glory Kill to finalize removing something from the field. Chainsaw a pip one threat every so often. Get the two dash upgrade and dash habitually if you don't have a need to dash at the moment. If anything fails then dash and correct i.e. you misjudge grenade cooldown. Obviously this isn't optimal, quick swap weapon attacks, firepower kills and grenade weaving are a big deal. The Chainsaw can be banked to three pips for tactical heavy destruction. You can sweep multiple enemies with flame belch or a slow heavy to keep yourself topped up as you dance, etc. But Eternal difficulty levels are pretty good at training you for the next one ala DMC and once you have a good minimum standard that trains you to not forget your cooldowns you can improve from there.
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Feb 1, 2022 17:32
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nemesis_hub posted:How does Eternal compare if I liked 2016 a lot? I’m mostly interested in the single player campaign and I enjoyed how 2016 replicated some of pace and atmosphere of the originals in a contemporary way. Eternal to 2016 is what 2016 to OG Doom. Would you like 2016 more if it was less similar to boomer shooters and leaned even harder into the unique thing it was doing? If yes, then you'll love Eternal, if no then you won't. EDIT: Also if that says anything to you. Eternal is less of an "FPS" and more of a "Character Action" game, like Devil May Cry. Devil May Die, if you will.
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Feb 1, 2022 17:37
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Jack Trades posted:Eternal to 2016 is what 2016 to OG Doom. I've never liked this description because it is very much still an FPS. The best FPS.
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Feb 1, 2022 17:46
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Mymla posted:It's kinda two steps forward one step back. Fully agree. I really liked the setting and tone and simplicity of the story in 2016, but the decision to go all dark fantasy in eternal was pretty baffling. I don't think I've ever ignored a game story so completely, my eyes glazed over every time I looked at one of those lore pages, who cares about all that garbage??? Gameplay in eternal is incredible though
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Feb 1, 2022 17:50
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Mordja posted:I've never liked this description because it is very much still an FPS. The best FPS. Yeah, same. Character action games are a fundamentally different genre, doom eternal is just an FPS that happens to be fairly difficult at the highest difficulties. Devil may cry is actually a terrible comparison, because the entire point of that game is to get high style points, which doom eternal just doesn't have.
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Feb 1, 2022 18:15
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Mordja posted:I've never liked this description because it is very much still an FPS. The best FPS. Mymla posted:Devil may cry is actually a terrible comparison, because the entire point of that game is to get high style points, which doom eternal just doesn't have. In DMC high "Style" is achieved by rotating through the available movest High Time - Aerial Rave - Helm Splitter - Stinger - Repeat Eternal wants you to do exactly the same thing with your moveset Meathook - Blood Punch - Super Shotty - Ice Grenade - Ballista - Glory Kill It's just not presented in the same way. You can literally lift the Style Meter from DMC and drop it into Eternal and it will work without any gameplay adjustments at all.
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Feb 1, 2022 18:39
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No offense to anyone but I always thought the "Doom Eternal is a character action game" argument was a huge stretch. It's like saying that Titanfall 2 really a platformer, on the basis that ignoring its signature mechanics and playing it like its Call of Duty makes the game significantly more difficult. The game is balanced around effective use of the tools it gives you, no poo poo! But it's also balanced around your ability to click on heads and use your mobility to control the flow of combat which are, you know, kind of fundamentally FPS mechanics. The whole thing about finding the optimal rotation of abilities or whatever is way overstated. Yeah sure, you're generally go do Flame Belch > something else because of how Flame Belch works. Yes, there are strong incentives not to let abilities sit unused for long. But I dunno, I've played the hell out of this game and I've never felt like I was mindlessly rolling through a set combo or rotation. Other than quick switching weapons I guess.
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Feb 1, 2022 19:41
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If there's one thing we should be able to agree on, it's that Doom Eternal is yet one more game in a long long line of doom clones
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Feb 1, 2022 19:43
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I think comparing Eternal to DMC isn't unfair, but I feel like Eternal and DMC are pulling from the same gameplay ideas (combat chess) rather than Eternal mimicking DMC. This might just be because the last DMC game I played was DMC1 and 2 when they first came out. But to my mind 2016 basically presented you with a no consequences combat chess. As such if you just wanted to run the game at speed using nothing but the SSG you could with no friction from the gameplay loop, even though the game itself was built with the idea that you'd not. Eternal refines the gameplay loop introduced in 2016, but also adds friction/pain points/consequences for going against the grain. This absolutely doesn't mean you can't still SSG/rocket launcher your way through the game, especially at lower difficulties, but more so that comes after figuring out how to work the new gameplay loop so you can more creatively stunt on it as opposed to just ignoring it like you could in 2016. Obviously some people bounced hard off that funneling you into the gameplay loop first before you gain enough mastery to choose to ignore it you want. I personally didn't mind it and had a blast with the game. Both games in new DooM are basically homages and love letters to all the cheesy 80s and early 90s source materials that OG DooM drew its own inspiration from. So if you are open to leaning into that kind of camp with them you'll probably like or at least not hate Eternal's story. Again, some people seriously bounced off of it, and that's fine, but since I was going into it expecting an over the top 80s cartoon metal music video of a story arc, I enjoyed it as well. So basically Eternal tries to be nothing other than what it is and tries to funnel you into engaging it in the way it was intended to be engaged. If you end up enjoying the ideas/mechanics they are iterating on you'll love Eternal, but if not you'll likely bounce off it. Depending on how you liked 2016 you have a good chance of liking 2016.
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Feb 1, 2022 19:43
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Hulk Krogan posted:No offense to anyone but I always thought the "Doom Eternal is a character action game" argument was a huge stretch. It's like saying that Titanfall 2 really a platformer, on the basis that ignoring its signature mechanics and playing it like its Call of Duty makes the game significantly more difficult. The game is balanced around effective use of the tools it gives you, no poo poo! But it's also balanced around your ability to click on heads and use your mobility to control the flow of combat which are, you know, kind of fundamentally FPS mechanics. Eternal barely requires any headclicking skill. My aim has always been trash and I'm managing fine on Nightmare because there's nothing that required any aiming skill. Enemies move in mostly slow predictable patterns and have giant hitboxes for weakpoints, aided even more by the fact that the Ballista's beam takes up half the screen. I'm assuming that "using mobility to control the flow of combat" you're talking about being able to move through the Unreal Tournament/Quake 3-style arenas? In that case yeah, sure, but what's the latest singleplayer FPS that had you do that besides Titanfall 2? Personally I can't even name one myself because no, that's not a fundamental mechanic of a modern FPS anymore. Or majority FPS games in general really. Dameius posted:I think comparing Eternal to DMC isn't unfair, but I feel like Eternal and DMC are pulling from the same gameplay ideas (combat chess) rather than Eternal mimicking DMC. Yeah, it doesn't mimic DMC combat per se but Hugo himself did mention in several streams that there are a lot of fundamental similarities between the Eternal and Character Action games. He was clearly inspired by them and god bless him for that. Jack Trades fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Feb 1, 2022 |
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Feb 1, 2022 19:56
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Jack Trades posted:I'm assuming that "using mobility to control the flow of combat" you're talking about being able to move through the Unreal Tournament/Quake 3-style arenas? In that case yeah, sure, but what's the latest singleplayer FPS that had you do that besides Titanfall 2? Personally I can't even name one myself because no, that's not a fundamental mechanic of a modern FPS anymore. Or majority FPS games in general really. Yeah, and that's a big part of why the majority of modern FPS games are pretty clunky and forgettable, whereas Doom Eternal and Titanfall 2 are good as hell. Splitgate hits this mark pretty well too with the pseudo Titanfall movement and the ability to make wild plays with the portals. But I also meant that, in contrast to COD/Halo/etc, you can't really get away with finding crates to hide behind, or moving from safe spot to safe spot so you can plink at enemies. You also have environmental hazards to deal with and are frequently barred from backtracking to a bottleneck in a previous room, so your only option is to rely on your movement and your awareness of where enemies are to not get cornered, and to give yourself space to take out the most dangerous targets. Hulk Krogan fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Feb 1, 2022 |
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Feb 1, 2022 20:00
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Jack Trades posted:Eternal barely requires any headclicking skill. My aim has always been trash and I'm managing fine on Nightmare because there's nothing that required any aiming skill. Enemies move in mostly slow predictable patterns and have giant hitboxes for weakpoints, aided even more by the fact that the Ballista's beam takes up half the screen. It's strangely undocumented in game for an AAA FPS but Headshots will at least double your kill speed. Required, no, but you can certainly improve your accuracy and get a good benefit for doing so. Enemy Values Spreadsheet
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Feb 1, 2022 20:13
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Doomykins posted:It's strangely undocumented in game for an AAA FPS but Headshots will at least double your kill speed. Required, no, but you can certainly improve your accuracy and get a good benefit for doing so. Huh...I didn't know about that. That's a very big difference in damage in certain cases too.
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Feb 1, 2022 20:36
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Headshots were in 2016 as well, there was even a loading screen tool tip about it!
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Feb 1, 2022 20:40
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There's also the rune from TAG Part 1 that makes headshot kills cause an explosion, which is sneaky good as it basically functions like another grenade. Then Hugo went and added those screecher enemies in part 2 that punished you real, REAL hard for not being careful with that rune
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Feb 1, 2022 20:41
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doom eternal is the best fps ever, and basically shows that doom 2016 was hugo and team were playing with kid gloves. for all my issues with spirit/baron/marauder spam, everything below that is a sublime combat system that expects you to get good and gives you everything you need to get good. if you want something less demanding and less satisfying to conquer, there's Every Other FPS In Existence also yeah eternal is less dmc and more revengeance. less style points, more brutal and efficient killing
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Feb 1, 2022 21:44
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Eternal has an absolutely incredible combat loop, and it's probably my favorite FPS of all time. It also made a really bad first impression on me, coming from Doom 2016. The story is what it is and can thankfully be mostly skipped, but I think the game does a pretty bad job easing you in to its mechanics. I disliked the first 3 levels on my first playthrough. The demons are very fast compared to 2016, and without Air Control or the dash, Doomguy handles like a boat. I also had trouble remembering to use the flame belch and grenades, because without upgrades those cooldowns are just long enough that you can't use them all the time. The game frontloads some weird ideas (forced walks through purple goo, tentacles) and some tough encounters at a point where you don't have very much slack in terms of HP. The mancubus gently caress pit is one of these, but that level in general loves locking you in tight spaces. This all felt very frustrating as someone new to the game, particularly coming off the power fantasy of 2016. The game started picking up for me around Doom Hunter Base. At that point you have the meathook, have picked up a some crystals so you can tank a few fireballs, and you have better mobility via the dash, meathook and maybe Air Control. There's a bit of an inverted difficulty curve going on where I think the first few levels are harder than the midgame. Playing through the early levels again doesn't cause the same frustration, since I'm better at the game now and can deal with those early limitations, but I'm wondering if switching some unlocks around would have made for fewer people bouncing off the game. I think my preferred order would be getting the dash and fast cooldown flame belch first (giving good mobility and training the player early to use flame belch a lot), then maybe the ice grenade (as a get out of jail free card) and meat hook, then the frag grenade and blood punch last. Esran fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Feb 1, 2022 |
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Feb 1, 2022 23:04
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What I would like to know is if the Sentinel Armor will pop on the Dark Lord or not. I just don't have enough life to learn anything from the battle and I'm tired of attempting it.
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Feb 2, 2022 21:39
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Having just started a replay of Doom '16, there's only one word that I can describe Eternal in comparison to that: hyperactive. Everything's faster, you're faced with more enemies at once, you're expected to fully engage with the combat loop at all times. Unfortunately that's where Eternal lost me by the end. It requires a level of focus and concentration that was, quite frankly, exhausting. I don't know if it's because of my age or what. It's the reason I haven't gone back to ULTRAKILL after buying it early on: I physically can't keep up with what's going on most of the time. Little me with ADHD probably would've appreciated Eternal more, but right now, it's just too much.
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Feb 3, 2022 03:55
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Yeah that's kinda how i felt by the end. I could play 2016 endlessly and reach the end of a level and be ready for more, but after a level or two of eternal i was ready for a break lol 
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Feb 3, 2022 04:23
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“Exhausting” is definitely a word I’ve used to describe the game before. It’s very unique in my library of games, in that regard—and I wouldn’t necessarily consider it a bad thing. It’s just that sometimes, after getting through a particularly intense segment, I felt like I needed to stop and do something else for a while.
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Feb 3, 2022 04:55
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Thanks for all the replies, guys. I have a feeling I’ll come down on the side of those who prefer 2016 given what’s been said but I’m still gonna give Eternal a shot. The term “boomer shooter” should be considered hate speech, though.
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Feb 3, 2022 11:22
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Eternal owns, get it!!
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Feb 3, 2022 12:54
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nemesis_hub posted:Thanks for all the replies, guys. I have a feeling I’ll come down on the side of those who prefer 2016 given what’s been said but I’m still gonna give Eternal a shot. 100% get it, it's a great game regardless of your experience with Doom 2016. Doom 2016: "oh gently caress! gently caress! gently caress! *continue on*" Doom Eternal: "oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh fuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccccCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *stop, breath, repeat*"
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Feb 3, 2022 13:02
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Eternal's not a perfect game by any means but it gets alot of credit for being the first good American AAA title since Doom 2016
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Feb 3, 2022 13:29
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nemesis_hub posted:The term “boomer shooter” should be considered hate speech, though. Quantum of Phallus posted:Eternal owns, get it!! This
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Feb 3, 2022 15:39
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Yeah our criticisms come from having played the poo poo out of an amazing game so def get it and see for yourself 
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Feb 3, 2022 15:41
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No Dignity posted:Eternal's not a perfect game by any means but it gets alot of credit for being the first good American AAA title since Doom 2016 Titanfall 2 launched after Doom 2016 so it may be the second.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:47
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I think I would go from LIKING Doom Eternal to LOVING Doom Eternal if the TTK was raised by like 1 second on Nightmare. I don’t mind moving in and out of full health and dead to any hit, but I feel like I’m always juuuuust shy of being able to do what I want to do.
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Feb 3, 2022 17:20
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I loved Eternal when it came out and finished it in a weekend, but tried again 6 months ago and gave up halfway through when the encounters start lasting 10-15 minutes each... I think my brain damage from the pandemic just makes this type of gameplay tough to get into now.
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Feb 3, 2022 17:29
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Grimthwacker posted:Having just started a replay of Doom '16, there's only one word that I can describe Eternal in comparison to that: hyperactive. Everything's faster, you're faced with more enemies at once, you're expected to fully engage with the combat loop at all times. Unfortunately that's where Eternal lost me by the end. It requires a level of focus and concentration that was, quite frankly, exhausting. I don't know if it's because of my age or what. It's the reason I haven't gone back to ULTRAKILL after buying it early on: I physically can't keep up with what's going on most of the time. Little me with ADHD probably would've appreciated Eternal more, but right now, it's just too much. I just didn't enjoy the loop in Eternal. I got about 4/5 of the way through Eternal and something didn't feel right, so I loaded back up Doom 2016 to see if I maybe misremembered that game. I started noticing things like the fact that not every enemy tries to get directly in your face and how much that changed the gameplay. Some enemies would try to snipe me while the imps would do that cool thing where they ran away and latched to walls, so I would either try to snipe back at them or switch to my shotguns and close the distance. I could also use my movement to run around and separate enemies to take them out tactically. It really did feel like an evolution of Doom 1 and 2's combat. In Eternal, every enemy is trying to facefuck me and as a result the game cuts the ammo capacity for each weapon down so that I'm either switching weapons or using occasionally using the chainsaw, which means that I essentially am playing most encounters in the same way where I'm just running away between manically switching weapons and using my different abilities. It's kind of boring to me ironically enough given how much action is going on at any given time. I can see the appeal, it just doesn't appeal to me. Coquito Ergo Sum fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 17:50
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I hope they don't back down from the cool niche they found with Eternal. Their next game should develop that combat concept even more.
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Feb 3, 2022 18:00
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In order to make sure all players conform exactly to Hugo's ideal gameplay loop the sequel to Doom Eternal will be one 8 hour long QTE. And if you fail a single button press you have to go all the way back to the beginning.
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Feb 3, 2022 18:45
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Eternal's combat was a little overdesigned imo, and made a mistake by forcing players to switch weapons constantly by suffocating the ammo count rather than just trusting the enemy and encounter design to make them want to naturally. If they make a successor to the modern Doom games I hope they lay off the plate spinning with cruft buttons like flame belch and grenade swap and focus more on atypical enemies that gently caress with your usual playstyle and combat priorities like the Maurauder and Archvile, that's where the most fun in the game was for me
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Feb 3, 2022 21:20
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Coquito Ergo Sum posted:I just didn't enjoy the loop in Eternal. I got about 4/5 of the way through Eternal and something didn't feel right, so I loaded back up Doom 2016 to see if I maybe misremembered that game. I started noticing things like the fact that not every enemy tries to get directly in your face and how much that changed the gameplay. Some enemies would try to snipe me while the imps would do that cool thing where they ran away and latched to walls, so I would either try to snipe back at them or switch to my shotguns and close the distance. I could also use my movement to run around and separate enemies to take them out tactically. It really did feel like an evolution of Doom 1 and 2's combat. I'm playing Doom '16 on UV, and I have to ask: Just how accurate from long range are Imp fireballs? Because they've been sniping me from across the map with frightening regularity.
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Feb 3, 2022 23:19
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enemy ranged attacks in both 2016 and eternal are more accurate and anticipate your moves better the further away you are; they start missing more as you get nearer (but obviously not when you run straight at them) in order to encourage aggression. this effect is amplified in higher difficulties
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Feb 3, 2022 23:22
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also enemies in eternal some enemies' AI will randomly switch from fighting you at range to rushing you down in melee. the most obvious ones that do this are imps and prowlers, but sneks, revenants, and arachnatrons can and will mix up their attacks occasionally
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Feb 3, 2022 23:29
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UN in 2016 is really fascinating for the absolute limit of what the drat imp fireball can do, especially their prediction. You need supreme map awareness or that one jerk at a distance you didn't see will getcha. As for UV stay mobile, recognize when you can juke or approach an imp without letting it turret at you, be aware of advantageous walls for cover if you have a different target nearby you wanna kill, that kinda thing.
Doomykins fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 23:33
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If you get hit, duck behind a chest-high wall until your shields recover
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Feb 3, 2022 23:39
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Ranged attacks probably have an easier time hitting you in 2016 because without the constant dash spam, your movement is much slower, consistent, and predictable.
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Feb 3, 2022 23:40
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