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BallerBallerDillz posted:Ugh, I've received a counter-counter offer that is 20k more than the original offer but still well below my counter. It's a generous offer by any standards but this may be the best labor market for computer touchers in my lifetime and it's really hard to justify jumping to play startup lottery for what is basically equal to my current package if I assume I'll always get 100% of my bonus target at my current spot and the equity options turn into nothing at the new place. My current job isn't on levels and the new startup isn't either so it's hard to do direct comps. I know they can't pay FAANG salaries but I was hoping for something that started with a 2 for senior SRE. "I'm sorry, I'll be happy to hear from you again if there's anything else you can do, but that doesn't work for me. Best of luck filling the position, bye."
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Feb 2, 2022 22:35
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It's not really clear from your post what you would need to say yes. Is $190k with some number of options enough? If so, I would respond with a concrete ask that is higher than what you would agree to but less than your initial, otherwise go with Eric's response.
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Feb 2, 2022 23:05
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Heck, the goal is "a number starting with 2" so unless you want the comedy option of "fine I'll do it for 20k" just counter with exactly 200k, 3000 options, and no bonus. Let them argue you down on the options because we all know they're worth 0.
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Feb 3, 2022 00:07
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i'm not convinced there's a computer toucher labor bubble either like computer touchers are getting fuckin paid but demand far outstrips supply as far as i can tell and i don't see demand decreasing at any point in time, so it's all gotta be supply growth
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Feb 3, 2022 00:23
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I'm familiar with at least two national markets with serious supply problems (US and Israel). I do have to wonder why that is. I know what I'm doing, but why are so many of me needed?
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Feb 3, 2022 00:26
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm familiar with at least two national markets with serious supply problems (US and Israel). I do have to wonder why that is. I know what I'm doing, but why are so many of me needed? because every single industry is becoming highly digitalized. i work in auto and companies are hiring more software engineers than all other types combined.
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Feb 3, 2022 00:29
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every company is a tech company whether they like it or not
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Feb 3, 2022 00:30
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Guinness posted:every company is a tech company whether they like it or not it fuckin sucks man i do not wanna be talking about Data Architecture
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Feb 3, 2022 00:35
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:it fuckin sucks man i do not wanna be talking about Data Architecture software is eating the world and it's not always a good thing, but it means software engineers do be gettin paid incidentally many software engineers i know, myself included, are somewhat luddite in their personal lives. can't unsee how the sausage gets made. last thing i want to do with my time off is program side projects or fix computer poo poo anymore.
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Feb 3, 2022 00:50
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Guinness posted:software is eating the world Same, computer is a gently caress.
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Feb 3, 2022 00:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Same, computer is a gently caress. I'm sorry, did somebody say computer as gently caress? 
BallerBallerDillz fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 01:02
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i'm not convinced there's a computer toucher labor bubble either I saw a slide of a presentation today, our computer toucher staff had a turnover rate of over 22%* last year, and we're profitable(ish) and they treat us really well. Our growth is starting to flatten out, and most of the people who left probably all their options are vested Based on that number I would assume that companies with worse outlook and more toxic management are just absolutely hemmoraging staff and having to pay through the nose to retain/aquire talent And yeah technology is sufficiently complex enough that there's a very real cap on total number of available workers, plus you need to compete with high finance and other Very Profitable industries for that head count. A lot of tech worker people are now moving into general business, or semi retired running a taco truck empire or microbrewery Plus we keep tapering down the number of h1-b visas, which sort of function as a pressure relief valve for this market *I included all of Jan 22 since we didn't have any departures Jan 2021
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Feb 3, 2022 01:05
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Guinness posted:software is eating the world https://twitter.com/PPathole/status/1116670170980859905 I’m on the hardware side (which is also now mostly software!) and this holds up with coworkers
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Feb 3, 2022 02:17
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Probably better aimed at a corporate thread but as I'm climbing up in HR I'm seeing certs and roles for things like HRIS analysis and data management, usually needing skills like SQL and hands on experience with one of 2 company's software. From what basic research I've done, it seems like the market rate is bottom dollar for a skill set that needs both HR and programming knowledge, where programming knowledge is pretty clearly in high demand. Would anyone know if I'm off base and should just pursue a career change going fully into software, or is there a role where those two things do successfully merge for worthwhile money? I don't want to train up a rare skill set that is also not at all in demand, as that typically doesn't help with negotiating a higher salary.
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Feb 3, 2022 15:47
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If you have the ability to be a competent programmer, the willingness to work your rear end off for a couple years to git gud, and don't mind spending your long workdays churning code then absolutely yes, pivoting to dev is the financially right play. Those are some big ifs that require crystalline honesty with yourself, though. Seems right that HR+programming is less valuable than just programming, the free hand of the market confirms what we all knew, HR subtracts value 
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Feb 3, 2022 15:53
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I would go all in on programming, though I say that from my (purely anecdotal) experience interviewing since last summer... I now think HR/recruiting functions should be automated - hard agree they don't add value
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Feb 3, 2022 16:12
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So that last part actually makes me think there is some value there, because "hey we automated our recruiting functions" is good, but "hey we automated our recruiting functions and it's EEOC compliant and our algorithm doesn't accidentally discriminate against non white men" seems better. I imagine most companies are fine with the first though, until they get sued.
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Feb 3, 2022 16:20
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Yeah but the problem with your job as an HR person being to write software to automate HR functions is that success means pushing yourself out of a job. For what it's worth PW I remember reading your posts a couple years back and thinking (maybe even posting once, I don't remember) that you definitely weren't going to stay in HR long term, because you think for yourself and that is emphatically not what HR people are ever supposed to do
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Feb 3, 2022 16:41
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So an update on my job move. The smaller company declined to extend an offer, so I didn’t get the chance to play offers against one another. I told the larger startup to give me $170k, after a couple rounds of negotiations they came up to $158k, $5k signing bonus, and more stock. I talked to a few of my friends that work there and they said life is better there than my current company. And I’m getting more excited about the technology, which as a scientist is a big part of my work satisfaction. I decided to take the offer. So negotiating got me +11k over their initial bid, along with a $5k bonus, and additional stock. Pretty convinced that I’m maxing out my market potential for my role, which makes me feel pretty good.
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Feb 3, 2022 18:01
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If it's a net-raise and you're reasonably sure it's a better situation then that's a win! Regardless of whatever platonic best deal you might have found.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:12
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yeah like the most important piece is that YOU are happy with what you have done and the move you are making sometimes that gets lost in discussions of Objective Value
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Feb 3, 2022 19:34
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Parallelwoody posted:Probably better aimed at a corporate thread but as I'm climbing up in HR I'm seeing certs and roles for things like HRIS analysis and data management, usually needing skills like SQL and hands on experience with one of 2 company's software. From what basic research I've done, it seems like the market rate is bottom dollar for a skill set that needs both HR and programming knowledge, where programming knowledge is pretty clearly in high demand. Would anyone know if I'm off base and should just pursue a career change going fully into software, or is there a role where those two things do successfully merge for worthwhile money? I don't want to train up a rare skill set that is also not at all in demand, as that typically doesn't help with negotiating a higher salary. I would look into things like (People) Data Analyst roles as well. Also heavily SQL / programming but typically more aligned to research / analytics and not in stereotypical HR itself (usually its own separate function). If you're statistically oriented, I would just search People Analytics jobs broadly. If you're more attuned to the software / tools side of things, then there are also roles like that in the space but they can be named anything (People Data Solutions, Data Analyst, HRIS Analyst, Implementation Partner, etc.) so not as much help there lol.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:42
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:yeah like the most important piece is that YOU are happy with what you have done and the move you are making Today we got told that we're all getting a COLA to account for the rising UK taxes in April and it won't affect any other agreed performance or certification increases anyone (*cough* me *cough*) might have. Good vibes sometimes have a favourable pricetag.
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Feb 3, 2022 19:58
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It's fair to poo poo on HR, and probably because of that I've been able to move from 13 an hour to 85k a year in right about 4 years (thanks again thread!). Unless I hit the director level then I'm probably close to my market cap, so I'm trying to plan out next steps and how that looks on the hiring side/how to sell these transitions. If the next move is still somewhat HR relevant then I believe that's a point in my favor. I will limply defend the industry by saying it can be a value add if used right and there's a coherent strategic focus, but yeah it's mostly peter principle bs from top to just above bottom. At least I won't touch recruiting...
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Feb 3, 2022 20:50
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I'm in HR tech. If you want $$ and more interesting work then def pursue a technical skillset with a side of HR knowledge and human sciences. There's plenty of companies doing work in the space - from mega co's to startups. There's a few forward thinking HR organizations out there but the majority are what everyone else is saying. "become more strategic" has been the top CHRO priority for like 10 years but actually progress appears depressingly nonexistent. It's really the same principal as everything: 1. Industry makes destiny and industry dynamics are really durable. 2. Revenue generating roles are better compensated and better treated. Software or data engineer at a software company. Is revenue generating in an attractive industry gets paid HR analyst in an airline is cost center in a lovely business and does not. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 3, 2022 |
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Feb 3, 2022 21:12
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Parallelwoody posted:It's fair to poo poo on HR, and probably because of that I've been able to move from 13 an hour to 85k a year in right about 4 years (thanks again thread!). Unless I hit the director level then I'm probably close to my market cap, so I'm trying to plan out next steps and how that looks on the hiring side/how to sell these transitions. If the next move is still somewhat HR relevant then I believe that's a point in my favor. I will limply defend the industry by saying it can be a value add if used right and there's a coherent strategic focus, but yeah it's mostly peter principle bs from top to just above bottom. At least I won't touch recruiting... Double posting because I just saw this. You could also consider stuff like sales/presales or solution consulting. I've met a fair few people who were in HR and migrated to "the business of HR" where their knowledge is useful but the pay is better and work more interesting.
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Feb 3, 2022 21:15
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Xguard86 posted:I'm in HR tech. If you want $$ and more interesting work then def pursue a technical skillset with a side of HR knowledge and human sciences. There's plenty of companies doing work in the space - from mega co's to startups. Any technical categories you could point me towards to focus on?
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Feb 3, 2022 22:34
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aperfectcirclefan posted:Thanks for all the help. I dunno that seems to be the range for a programmer of my skill set just entering the market (I mostly work with WordPress which is like real programmings stupid little brother). I do have a wife and pets so I would just get a room in a apartment or something for when the weather is so bad I can't drive back otherwise i'd hoof it every day the 3 hours. It's not unusual for people from this area to travel that far for work tbh. I did one of the interviews, it seemed to go well. I managed to "negotiate" them to 60k and hybrid. They said they'd get back to me by the end of the day with a proper job offer. 24 hours later and still nothing lmao. Job searching is fun.
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Feb 4, 2022 00:23
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i think i post this like every 20 pages or so but getting hired is your #1 priority. for the hiring party, getting you an offer is like their 67th priority.
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Feb 4, 2022 00:39
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I still haven't gotten an offer from the company that said they were going to make an offer on 1/12. Their internal recruiter swears they are still planning on making an offer, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Feb 4, 2022 00:54
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Parallelwoody posted:Any technical categories you could point me towards to focus on? Depends what you're interested in. Front end and back end dev skills are of course always in demand. Most products are your usual SAAS stack, nothing exotic. Software skill > domain knowledge for getting the job. Domain knowledge is nice and can open doors once you're a working dev because everyone loves the engineer they can talk to / can talk to users. Big data, AI ML are popular because there's so much data in human behavior and a million potential applications. Heavy overlap with software engineering skills. One level of abstraction higher and there's knowledge of popular HCM (human capital mgmt) and WFM (workforce management) systems. Integration and implementation, administrator, etc. This is also where your HRIS type skills reside. It's less comp and fairly routine but the skill curve is lower and I think still pays more than typical HR.
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Feb 4, 2022 01:46
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MrLogan posted:I still haven't gotten an offer from the company that said they were going to make an offer on 1/12. Their internal recruiter swears they are still planning on making an offer, but I'm not holding my breath. Tell them every day they're late your salary requirements increase by $1,000
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Feb 4, 2022 04:01
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Thanks thread, netted ~30k per year and a 21k signing bonus by making myself nauseous for a few hours.
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Feb 4, 2022 04:08
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taqueso posted:Thanks thread, netted ~30k per year and a 21k signing bonus by making myself nauseous for a few hours. Congratulations! Worth it every time
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Feb 4, 2022 04:14
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taqueso posted:Thanks thread, netted ~30k per year and a 21k signing bonus by making myself nauseous for a few hours.  
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Feb 4, 2022 04:18
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taqueso posted:Thanks thread, netted ~30k per year and a 21k signing bonus by making myself nauseous for a few hours. that nice feeling now certainly was worth being uncomfortable for a bit right? Congratulations! 
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Feb 4, 2022 09:39
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taqueso posted:Thanks thread, netted ~30k per year and a 21k signing bonus by making myself nauseous for a few hours. stud
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Feb 4, 2022 13:47
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Starting comp negotiations today in 2 1/2 hours so that's going to be fun. I caved and gave them a number at the start because I hadn't read enough, but it was 70% higher than what I make now, so I don't feel too bad about that. I also asked them what salary they would expect to pay and it was ~10% higher even than what I asked, so I think I have a hole to dig myself out of maybe. They want me bad enough that they had the VP of the department sell me even harder on it earlier this week. The number I gave was around 180k, and they said they would expect around 200k/yr (base). I would be more than happy to take 180k to be honest, but of course I want to get what I can, especially considering the position would come with four levels of title bump (my current company is freakin awful and I should have left long ago). I figure that alone is going to put me in a position in a couple of years if I want to move to a much higher position even. But I probably have a bit of a hole to dig myself out of. I know that I'm not going to take the first offer, so I'm thinking that I'll counter with around 210k, then let them talk me down to around 190-200 which I would be more than happy with. Does that sound pretty reasonable? I'm awful at negotiating, but now that I have experience in the field I know what I'm worth at least, though probably still under estimate it.
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Feb 4, 2022 17:39
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It's difficult to move upward from a number you named but your best bet is "from talking to other companies I've come to realize I've been undervaluing myself but you're still my first choice, if you can do $210K I'm in." You might at least get them up to $200, the worst thing they can do is draw the line lower. Don't be shocked when the offer is $160 though, the other person has more experience negotiating than you.
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Feb 4, 2022 17:48
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Perfect, that's the kind of advice I need. And yeah, while it seems like a nice place to work, I am going through final interviews with other companies for the same position so although it's a bit less attractive, it's not like it'd be the end of the world.
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Feb 4, 2022 17:51
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