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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The weird tension is that Rise Of Skywalker is the worst-made of the ST films but also the only one worth making. It's clear with hindsight that the previous two are almost-entirely gratuitous backstory for Episode 9, where Rey's story actually begins. This is because the protagonist 6 is FN and the protagonist of 8 is (technically) Poe - both of whom are the focus of only one film apiece, with nothing to do before or after. Rise of Skywalker is easily the worst of the three on a technical and fundamental level. The movie is a mess from top to bottom and every which way to Sunday. It's hard to say whether it's really worse than Last Jedi or not because that movie is put together better, although there are still a couple scenes that I can't believe no one noticed and fixed in editing, but it's still awful and did a ton of damage to the franchise. Maybe if Rise of Skywalker came first people would hate it more, but Last Jedi killed a nearly all the enthusiasm for sequel trilogy. By the time TRoS came out everyone knew it was going to suck and just wanted it to be over. If you look at the movies purely in a vacuum, then TRoS is easily worse I think just because it's straight up bad film making. But taking the damage Last Jedi did to the franchise, and that it needed part of the next movie to try and fix some of it makes me say that is still king of poo poo mountain.
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Feb 7, 2022 20:55
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The Last Jedi (with a few changes to fix the reverse ferreting on the interesting ideas) would have made a great first part of a new trilogy. I mean it. Just do the text scrawl and then open with the space battle of rebels escaping a star destroyer trying to kill them all and then introduce Rey on this island standing opposite old and bitter Luke and explain from there how our characters got to this point. e: TFA is what doomed the trilogy. Blowing one of the three films on a rehash on ANH's plot made it impossible for the trilogy to be coherently about something new. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 21:08
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It’s a little more nuanced then the last Jedi being “bad”. The last Jedi was a good movie that Star Wars fans hated. I don’t think Star Wars fans could even like a Star Wars film set in the pt ot continuum due to ideological constraints of their common POV. I think the last Jedi showed that Disney could never make a sequel movie that would be generally liked by Star Wars fans. Then tros came out that was actually a bad movie overall and also , naturally, not liked by Star Wars fans (but more generally well liked) It’s better at this point to move out to new stories which Disney seems to be doing . Why bother making another movie Star Wars fans won’t like. The mandolorian for example was a good show and well liked by Star Wars fans as it was far afield from any main PT OT ST story. euphronius fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 21:09
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Have you ever seen a dichotomy like this  For a big movie. Not something with a low number of reviews
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Feb 7, 2022 21:12
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Notice that 100,000+ number? Compare it to any other massive movie over the past decade. Avengers Endgame has half of that number. Fast 8 has a quarter of that number. The score has been completely astroturfed by angry nerds actively trying to artificially lower it. TLJ has an A Cinemascore, which is a metric seen by many as far more representative of true pubic opinion.
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Feb 7, 2022 21:17
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Like for tlj one of the big criticisms is that parts of it dont make sense. I was watching the new spider man movie which at many many levels makes absolutely no sense. Including the first 20 mins which was about some sort of legal trouble that ends mysteriously. (Maybe I missed something - I only saw the movie once ) But the movie is nearly unanimously seen as good by critics and liked by fans. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong but it just in interesting to me that the such a movie slides by while TLJ gets rung up on these kinds of criticisms. (Im just pointing out that making a movie in the main sequence of sw film that Star Wars fans like may be impossible due to their … idiosyncratic preferences and ideas about the movies ) euphronius fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Feb 7, 2022 |
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Feb 7, 2022 21:18
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CinemaScore is kinda lame because they only poll opening night for people leaving the theater. There's no time to digest the film, and it's definitely not useful for public opinion four years after a movie has come out.
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Feb 7, 2022 21:21
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When I left the movies after seeing it my initial reaction was pretty much "what the hell did I just watch" Make no mistake about it, TLJ is a bad movie. It's a good looking bad movie, but it is bad. It is not "just" a bad Star Wars movie
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Feb 7, 2022 21:33
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Yeah and if I just spent $ and a Friday night on a blockbuster movie experience with popcorn and drink you know I'm going to be giving it a B+ minimum because gently caress trying to be right and objective over crawling for any sip of forget potion for a few hours.
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Feb 7, 2022 21:36
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Why would a 4 year gap be better for a review compared to a review from a person who just saw the movie . If I am reading you right. Sorry if I misunderstand.
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Feb 7, 2022 21:40
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Doing damage to a franchise is a massive positive at this point
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Feb 7, 2022 21:49
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I haven't seen the new Spider-Man movies besides the first animated one. But I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the key difference is that Spider-Man stuff is almost always an intensely personal soap opera about Peter Parker's frustrations, failings, and rare triumphs. Star Wars, meanwhile, is about wars involving governments and militaries and corporations and religions. It's inescapably political, and has a great deal more social realism than the MCU. When a Star Wars movie concludes with some pap about love and friendship and believing in yourself, it rings false to a lot of people, including people who don't think of themselves as Star Wars Fans.
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Feb 7, 2022 21:50
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euphronius posted:Have you ever seen a dichotomy like this feedmyleg posted:Notice that 100,000+ number? Compare it to any other massive movie over the past decade. Avengers Endgame has half of that number. Fast 8 has a quarter of that number. The score has been completely astroturfed by angry nerds actively trying to artificially lower it. TLJ has an A Cinemascore, which is a metric seen by many as far more representative of true pubic opinion.  As for the inverse, we have this (though obviously no 100,000+):  Nodoze posted:When I left the movies after seeing it my initial reaction was pretty much "what the hell did I just watch"
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Feb 7, 2022 21:51
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Elias_Maluco posted:the idiotic mistakes are being forced to advance the plot and dont feel believable *cough* Breaking Bad
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Feb 7, 2022 21:54
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The United States posted:All Star Wars movies are bad movies. TLJ is good for a Star Wars movie though. Both of these statements are wrong
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Feb 7, 2022 22:00
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Nodoze posted:Both of these statements are wrong 
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Feb 7, 2022 22:21
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Even Rise of Skywalker got a B+ on CinemaScore. It's not really a good metric. Any reasonably competent blockbuster is going to get a good rating - people don't get actively bored with bad films as long as you keep moving things along, which RoS definitely did.euphronius posted:Like for tlj one of the big criticisms is that parts of it dont make sense. I was watching the new spider man movie which at many many levels makes absolutely no sense. Including the first 20 mins which was about some sort of legal trouble that ends mysteriously. (Maybe I missed something - I only saw the movie once ) Movies are allowed to have things that make no sense, as long as they make sense on their own terms. Like lots of nerds ask 'why didn't the Death Star have 5,000,000 TIE fighters?' and the answer is it doesn't matter. And noone asking that question actually dislikes A New Hope. The scene works as presented and never does anything to draw attention to this problem.
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Feb 7, 2022 22:53
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How long was the Death Star operational before A New Hope starts? I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think it wouldn’t be fully staffed/furnished during the first weeks of operation.
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Feb 7, 2022 23:12
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The United States posted:All Star Wars movies are bad movies. TLJ is good for a Star Wars movie though. I wouldn't phrase things on those terms but I could see an argument that "Star Wars" is/has become a enough of genre unto itself such that many people judge it on different criteria than (as an example) a MCU superhero film.
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Feb 7, 2022 23:18
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I watched Return of the Jedi yesterday. The scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor fell really flat this time because they lack the nuance of the prequels. Anakin's fall was because he was unable to deal with loss, the system was broken and he ultimately kept making worse and worse choices to deal with his anger/fears since he saw no way to go back. In Jedi, Palpatine was trying to get Luke to try to kill him and Vader because killing someone when you're mad is wrong I guess? Its pretty dumb and Vader's redemption rings false because he gets to avoid any real responsibility for his actions. It isn't clear if Vader even really accepts that Palpatine has always been full of poo poo or if he's just mad enough to kill him to save Luke. The Rebels were about to blow up the Death Star anyway, Luke was prepared to die as soon as he realized Vader was taking him to the Emperor, so the whole thing ends up being hokey. That's how you end up with the end of RoS, where Rey killing Palpatine would be bad but Rey killing Palpatine with SUPER JEDI DEFLECTION powers is good. A dumb technicality of saying the violence wasn't directly your fault so you're morally clean.
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Feb 7, 2022 23:26
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I suppose I shouldn't be shocked by this and I also suppose I shouldn't really care because I really don't give much of a poo poo about Star Wars anymore but are we actually at a point where people are seriously claiming that the prequels are better then the original trilogy?
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Feb 7, 2022 23:45
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The prequels have always been more complex and nuanced than the originals. I do think that makes them far more interesting but 'better' is a value judgement.
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Feb 8, 2022 00:01
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Roth posted:CinemaScore is kinda lame because they only poll opening night for people leaving the theater. There's no time to digest the film, and it's definitely not useful for public opinion four years after a movie has come out. Echo chambers of weirdos convinced they're actually a majority and that everyone hated this very popular film is far less useful.
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Feb 8, 2022 01:19
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Cannibal Llama posted:I suppose I shouldn't be shocked by this and I also suppose I shouldn't really care because I really don't give much of a poo poo about Star Wars anymore but are we actually at a point where people are seriously claiming that the prequels are better then the original trilogy? Shiroc is right; up until very recently, Return Of The Jedi had the dubious honour of being the worst official live-action Star Wars movie. The prequels basically exist to drastically recontextualize it. My pick for best tends to vacillate between 2 and 3. (The overall-best Star Wars movies are Elysium and Mechanical Violator Hakaider).
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Feb 8, 2022 01:46
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Halloween Jack posted:The problem with this is that it's loving stupid. TLJ was pretty explicit in ultimately rejecting the idea that the Republic was bad and the Jedi were dumb. Or, more specifically, it rejected the idea that because they were flawed, they were therefore worthless. No Mods No Masters posted:Yeah I didn't want to necro that post but I have been thinking since about who exactly OP thinks represents good in the prequels. My best answer there is tpm anakin and jarjar (who lose the struggle and become piece of poo poo cogs in the system offscreen between the first and second movies). I guess..... maybe shmi???? Most characters are at least partially good. The struggle is both internal and external. It's not that complicated! e: are you sincerely suggesting that there are no characters who represent good in the prequels? Because that would be an absolutely wild reading of the prequels. quote:All of this nonsense about "the eternal struggle between good and evil" is apologism for being really loving stupid. People who use a mythos of eternal struggle to justify their actions are very, very bad people! I'm not really sure what to make of this to be honest. You're condemning a Star Wars movie for trafficking in broad mythemes? Is it wrong to think that there are no final victories or defeats? TheLoquid fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 01:49
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TheLoquid posted:e: are you sincerely suggesting that there are no characters who represent good in the prequels? Because that would be an absolutely wild reading of the prequels. There are heroes on both sides. However, we are talking about ethics - and the point of the prequels is that none of these good guys are ethical.
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Feb 8, 2022 02:00
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https://twitter.com/JohnDiLillo/status/1490481622692605952 https://twitter.com/JohnDiLillo/status/1490597112333099009 
Assepoester fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 02:04
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Imagine going this hard in the paint for the guy who was in Laserhawk.
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Feb 8, 2022 02:07
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ruddiger posted:Imagine going this hard in the paint for the guy who was in Laserhawk. 
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Feb 8, 2022 02:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:There are heroes on both sides. Well at least we can agree that there are textual good guys
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Feb 8, 2022 02:38
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Shiroc posted:I watched Return of the Jedi yesterday. The scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor fell really flat this time because they lack the nuance of the prequels. Anakin's fall was because he was unable to deal with loss, the system was broken and he ultimately kept making worse and worse choices to deal with his anger/fears since he saw no way to go back. One quick note: at no point was Palpatine trying to get Luke to kill him; he wanted Luke to try to kill him, because he knew Vader would defend him, and through Luke killing his own father [???] and then Luke would become evil. Also, Vader accepted at the end of episode 3 that Palpatine was full of poo poo. At that point everything he'd ever wanted had turned to ashes in his mouth (if he even had a mouth any more) and he just had to be chained to this loathsome ghoul because he had no other prospects. Remember, in episode 5 he was actively trying to convince Luke to act against the emperor
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Feb 8, 2022 02:40
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The United States posted:https://twitter.com/JohnDiLillo/status/1490481622692605952 I've heard about a zillion criticisms of TLJ but "Mark Hamill turned in a bad acting performance" has never been one of them. Dude's just making up an imaginary guy to be mad at.
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Feb 8, 2022 02:56
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Skrill.exe posted:I've heard about a zillion criticisms of TLJ but "Mark Hamill turned in a bad acting performance" has never been one of them. Dude's just making up an imaginary guy to be mad at. that's not really the point of those tweets. TLJ mark Hamill is indeed one of his best performances but most fans don't care because they think the movie ruined Luke Skywalker. Instead they clap like a seal when CGI Luke voiced by AI appears on screen and say "thank you Jon favreu for giving me my luke back" which is indeed a sentiment that has been loudly and proudly posted many places on social media. for these people they absolutely prefer the robot Luke because it's giving them what they think they can instead of enjoying the really great performance Hamill put on in TLJ
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Feb 8, 2022 03:07
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Jerkface posted:that's not really the point of those tweets. TLJ mark Hamill is indeed one of his best performances but most fans don't care because they think the movie ruined Luke Skywalker. Instead they clap like a seal when CGI Luke voiced by AI appears on screen and say "thank you Jon favreu for giving me my luke back" which is indeed a sentiment that has been loudly and proudly posted many places on social media. Yeah, the statement that The Last Jedi is important or at least influential because we're still talking about it is entirely true. Fans are also the dumbest and none of them should ever get what they want ever because it's awful. Look at the 20 years of Boba Fett crap, or wanting Palpatine back. Last Jedi is severely flawed, but the way I always describe it is that it is a movie that has big ideas that it does well and small things it does bad. While TFA had no ideas but did small things well, and TROS had no ideas and did everything poorly.
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Feb 8, 2022 03:38
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Empire is starting to not get enough credit for how good it is (and like 9, Jedi completely ruined the setup, which people don't recognize as much because RotJ at least has two good scenes). I mean, it's absolutely beautiful at the very least and looks consistently better than TLJ and almost as good as Rogue One but nobody cares and it makes me sad. 
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Feb 8, 2022 03:44
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TheLoquid posted:Most characters are at least partially good. The struggle is both internal and external. It's not that complicated! Well we named a few candidates in subsequent posts but they were mostly pretty minor characters and/or stop being good fairly early on. I don't think it's particularly wild. Don't get me wrong, I don't really like that about the prequels personally, but that is the way I think they are
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Feb 8, 2022 03:54
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Pook Good Mook posted:Yeah, the statement that The Last Jedi is important or at least influential because we're still talking about it is entirely true. It's not exactly true, because you're talking about the discourse around the film. The film itself is ancillary to all this.
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Feb 8, 2022 04:25
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Darko posted:Empire is starting to not get enough credit for how good it is (and like 9, Jedi completely ruined the setup, which people don't recognize as much because RotJ at least has two good scenes). I mean, it's absolutely beautiful at the very least and looks consistently better than TLJ and almost as good as Rogue One but nobody cares and it makes me sad. Empire moved way up my personal rankings when I watched through them over the past month. I was also really into how good it looked on the 4k disc (even though I read reviews later that said it was supposed to be a mediocre to bad transfer. It worked for me). It really felt like its own thing. Jedi felt like it was taking too many cues from what would become 'the family friendly 80s' movie style. Similar to stuff like Labyrinth.
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Feb 8, 2022 04:39
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TheLoquid posted:TLJ was pretty explicit in ultimately rejecting the idea that the Republic was bad and the Jedi were dumb. Or, more specifically, it rejected the idea that because they were flawed, they were therefore worthless. Can I ask for examples where this happens explicitly? The way I remember it, the movie just kind of throws it out there that the New Republic and First Order are on equal ground because their struggle makes the same people rich, then a character explicitly states that their struggle is ultimately meaningless. That character is then never refuted and he moonwalks out of the movie with a pile of money.
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Feb 8, 2022 05:09
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Grendels Dad posted:then a character explicitly states that their struggle is ultimately meaningless. That character is then never refuted and he moonwalks out of the movie with a pile of money. and the name of that character was George Lucas
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Feb 8, 2022 05:12
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