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That table has the fattest trunks I've ever seen. Also why sit that far apart could you even hear each other?
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Feb 8, 2022 03:59
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Feb 8, 2022 04:18
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Al-Saqr posted:That table has the fattest trunks I've ever seen. They are using earpieces with simultaneous translation; it might actually be better if they can’t hear the other guy (I don’t think this is the reason, just pointing it out).
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Feb 8, 2022 04:36
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https://twitter.com/andersostlund/status/1490896493317787649?t=2wT6CuGrrDCb7wzWe0v0Og&s=19 I'm not typically one to voice-shame, but I always forget that Putin has a high-pitched gnome voice. Just not at all what you'd expect from the image bike of him.
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Feb 8, 2022 05:10
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French presidential source: Macron and Putin agreed that Russia will withdraw its forces from Belarus after the exercises Can the last non regular in the EE thread please turn off the lights on the Belarus front "" Since February 2014, Russia has considered a coup d'état as the source of power in Ukraine, - Putin "" More on the seperatist oblast confederation or Ukraine at 0200 local time. "" Putin concerned that discrimination against the Russian-speaking population in Ukraine is enshrined in law "" Oh look ethnic Russians are discriminated against by Constitution. I forgot about the Russia codes in Ukraine. "" Biden says US citizens should leave Ukraine now. "I think it would be wise to leave the country. I'm not talking about our diplomatic corps. I'm talking about the Americans there. I don't want them to get caught in the crossfire "" Big day for diplomacy. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 05:14
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Cugel the Clever posted:https://twitter.com/andersostlund/status/1490896493317787649?t=2wT6CuGrrDCb7wzWe0v0Og&s=19 Was Putin's original goal to merely threaten Ukraine into submission but now he's stuck have to go with a full invasion to save face? And wow, it's quite apparent he's never asked any difficult questions on the spot.
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Feb 8, 2022 05:21
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Sekenr posted:Sorry but this is just stupid. https://twitter.com/alxgraef/status/1490267357998104576 https://twitter.com/SokovNikolai/status/1490272196966723592 Looks like an old man yelling at clouds to me.
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Feb 8, 2022 05:42
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Charliegrs posted:No but I noticed there wasn't any after Poland joined the Warsaw Pact. That makes them lucky compared to Czechia and Hungary, then.
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Feb 8, 2022 06:07
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GABA ghoul posted:Finally the social media intern at the ice cream factory has chimed in on the issue Check your dossier Joe! The conspiracy goes all the way to the top!
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Feb 8, 2022 06:08
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Starks posted:They are using earpieces with simultaneous translation; it might actually be better if they can’t hear the other guy (I don’t think this is the reason, just pointing it out). That makes a lot of sense
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Feb 8, 2022 06:10
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Cugel the Clever posted:https://twitter.com/andersostlund/status/1490896493317787649?t=2wT6CuGrrDCb7wzWe0v0Og&s=19 Я продолжаю настаивать, медленно уменьшаясь и превращаясь в початок кукурузы 
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Feb 8, 2022 06:11
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Grouchio posted:Я не собственник!! я не собственник!! I'm not cornered, the corn said. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/07/world/europe/putin-macron-russia-france-ukraine.html quote:Mr. Macron said he had coordinated closely with the Western allies, including the United States and Germany. But some supporters of Ukraine’s pro-Western course have criticized him for being too solicitous of Mr. Putin’s demands. Mr. Macron did nothing to assuage those concerns by telling reporters before his meeting with Mr. Putin that a “Finlandization” of Ukraine was “one of the models on the table.” I find it fairly notable how nonchalantly Macron is negotiating Ukraine away, but since nobody brought it up here before me, either nobody noticed or it's okay or no big deal. (Of course it's not something that France can just decree, but I'd be beyond pissed at them if I was Ukraine or any other country France pretends to be "friendly" with.)
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Feb 8, 2022 06:55
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quote:“Finlandization” of Ukraine was “one of the models on the table.” France gives the green light to Winter War 2, I see.
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Feb 8, 2022 07:19
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Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:I find this fairly notable how nonchalantly Macron is negotiating Ukraine away, but since nobody brought it up before me, either nobody noticed or it's meaningless. (Of course it's not something that France can just decree, but I'd be beyond pissed at them if I was Ukraine or any other country France pretends to be "friendly" with.) There is something appealing about the idea of the West and Ukraine just leaving the phone off the hook, completely ignoring their Russian interlocutors in a clear message to Putin that he'd better poo poo or get off the pot. The West has done nothing to warrant the belligerence, so should walk away from the table entirely and leave Putin to his tantrum (and punish the gently caress out of him if he actually starts throwing punches).
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Feb 8, 2022 07:20
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Cugel the Clever posted:Why? I see this line of reasoning brought up a lot and it leaves me perplexed (and, honestly, somewhat suspicious). It's not France's or America's fault that Putin is using the threat of an invasion of Ukraine as leverage to achieve political gains against the West and refusing to treat Ukraine as a sovereign country. If Biden or others sell Ukraine down the river, that's one thing, but the mere act of being forced to serve as more powerful representatives of Ukraine's interests is hardly anything to be upset about (particularly as Western leaders have no doubt been in extensive talks with Zelensky and one another behind the scenes). If I understand this correctly, you're assuming the Finlandization has been green-lit by Ukraine or the US and Macron is just the messenger?
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Feb 8, 2022 07:50
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Cugel the Clever posted:https://twitter.com/andersostlund/status/1490896493317787649?t=2wT6CuGrrDCb7wzWe0v0Og&s=19 He haas a perfectly normal voice., if you ask me. He just doesn’t sound like someone who smokes Belamor for 30 years.  Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:I'm not cornered, the corn said. No one here reads NYT regularly probably, as simple as that. On the subject of the quote, I really hope it’s just Macron being Macron, and not Germany’s brilliant plan to preserve their Russian gas pipeline. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 07:56
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:That makes them lucky compared to Czechia and Hungary, then. I still think the reason why our Communist party is no longer even in the parliament is that they were public about liking '68 and the following "normalization". Also their hysterical behaviour around all mentions of political crimes during the communist regime. My favourite one was in 2020, during the anniversary of a woman getting completely political show trial and subsequently dying, their chairman complaining how attacking a political party like this is undemocratic. Real mask off moment.
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Feb 8, 2022 08:55
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Xarn posted:I still think the reason why our Communist party is no longer even in the parliament is that they were public about liking '68 and the following "normalization". e: The only people who really care about Milada Horáková at this point are rightwingers who basically weaponized her image. All leftism is communism, right? anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 09:46
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Was Putin's original goal to merely threaten Ukraine into submission but now he's stuck have to go with a full invasion to save face? And wow, it's quite apparent he's never asked any difficult questions on the spot. Russia clearly struggles to control its desired sphere of influence. It's reviled for its historical imperial transgressions, its economy is too small to be a draw relative to the EU or "the West" and it's too poor to effectively bribe governments like China or the US. In lieu of soft power one solution is for the US et al to officially state that Ukraine can't join NATO in respect of Russian wishes. It would serve as de facto recognition that Ukraine belongs to Russia with implicit but unspecified authority to demand compliance without interference. It's an unpaletable idea in most western democracies since it essentially establishes a framework whereby major powers can formalize control over desired client states which echoes painful historical periods western democracies are more eager to forget than replay. No doubt Putin genuinely thinks the world should still work like this and he may actually have thought he could get the concession. In the end, if Russia wants a guarantee that Ukraine won't join NATO it will have to extract it from Ukraine. It is up to Ukraine to give that gurantee or not and up to Russia whether or not to use military force to get it and subsequently deal with whatever fallout results from that decision. Finlandization was, after all, a policy of Finland, not NATO. Russia is left with one of two options. Give up idiotic notions of a sphere of influence they're too weak to influence or use military force. Evidently Putin is too nationalistic for the former. Invasion on the other hand is a terrible option. Either Russia takes part of Ukraine leaving the remainder permanently turned qgainst Russia, which is where we are now, or they gamble and risk protracted, bloody and very public urban warfare to take the whole country and install an unpopular and illegitimate puppet they will have to prop up forever, simultaniously bolstering support for NATO and leaving Russia to eat sanctions for probably decades. In the end, Russia is weak and has no good options to achieve dumb, pointless ambitions that belong in a previous century but Putin may try all of them anyway
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Feb 8, 2022 10:44
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Also NATO membership is just the conversation today, in two years Ukraine is planning to apply to start the process of EU accession. That's also going to be unacceptable given that EU association was what kicked off the 2014 crisis, and may well be one of the factors that has prompted Putin to decide that he is on a clock and needs to act now.
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Feb 8, 2022 10:54
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Cugel the Clever posted:There is something appealing about the idea of the West and Ukraine just leaving the phone off the hook, completely ignoring their Russian interlocutors in a clear message to Putin that he'd better poo poo or get off the pot. The West has done nothing to warrant the belligerence, so should walk away from the table entirely and leave Putin to his tantrum (and punish the gently caress out of him if he actually starts throwing punches). Don't know what country you're from, but this is definitely the callous 'it's no problem for us if Ukraine gets invaded or not, we win either way' attitude where diplomacy isn't even worth trying that I talk about the US having. Conspiratiorist posted:https://twitter.com/alxgraef/status/1490267357998104576 lmao that Western media are pretending that guy's a serious person. Whether it's deliberate propaganda or just ignorance, it should be pretty embarrassing either way. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 12:37
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Sinteres posted:Don't know what country you're from, but this is definitely the callous 'it's no problem for us if Ukraine gets invaded or not, we win either way' attitude where diplomacy isn't even worth trying that I talk about the US having. Why do you think Putin is remotely good faith about any kind of negotiations given how little he cared about them with respect to Ukraine at any time before? Every statement from Putin and Lavrov seems calculated to disallow any kind of sane diplomacy from the West. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 12:50
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Panzeh posted:Why do you think Putin is remotely good faith about any kind of negotiations given how little he cared about them with respect to Ukraine at any time before? I don't think Putin's a particularly unstable or irrational actor, and he's made his demands pretty clear about Ukraine (and Georgia) not being permitted to join NATO or the EU. Sucks for Ukraine, but if invasion is going to prevent those from happening anyway, giving up those aspirations makes sense to me. We already know that nobody cares about the victims of occupation since the sanctions on Crimea impose collective punishment on them, so it's not like the US is going to do them any good in the case of an invasion. Besides, the West broke their promises about NATO enlargement long before Putin started invading his neighbors, so the US, UK, and France are among the bad faith actors who precipitated the crisis, and it's not a whataboutism since they acted first and influenced Russia's subsequent actions. Not that I'm saying enlarging NATO was as immoral as Russia invading its neighbors, but it's been a contributing factor to deteriorating relations, though obviously if you live in the Baltics or Poland you're happy to make that trade. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 13:00
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Sinteres posted:lmao that Western media are pretending that guy's a serious person. Whether it's deliberate propaganda or just ignorance, it should be pretty embarrassing either way. Pretty impressive publicity work, though. At some other time this kind of red herring would have been lost in the swarm of bigger news about Kremlin's and Nato's statements and actions. But now maybe because of the Olympics there was just enough of a lull that an old man's ramblings would make global news. Not that it's surprising. Media are well known for their lemmings like behaviour where if one reports something then everyone will follow, no matter how stupid it is.
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Feb 8, 2022 13:07
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Sinteres posted:I don't think Putin's a particularly unstable or irrational actor, and he's made his demands pretty clear about Ukraine (and Georgia) not being permitted to join NATO or the EU. Sucks for Ukraine, but if invasion is going to prevent those from happening anyway, giving up those aspirations makes sense to me. We already know that nobody cares about the victims of occupation since the sanctions on Crimea impose collective punishment on them, so it's not like the US is going to do them any good in the case of an invasion. Besides, the West broke their promises about NATO enlargement long before Putin started invading his neighbors, so the US, UK, and France are among the bad faith actors who precipitated the crisis, and it's not a whataboutism since they acted first and influenced Russia's subsequent actions. Not that I'm saying enlarging NATO was as immoral as Russia invading its neighbors, but it's been a contributing factor to deteriorating relations, though obviously if you live in the Baltics or Poland you're happy to make that trade. Once a country gets to invading and annexing chunks of other countries, you have to get extremely suspicious about the faith any guarantee that would demand that a country give up its right to any kind of collective defense. If you've invaded and annexed Crimea and have zero intention of giving that back at any time, the purpose of demanding Ukraine(and Georgia) never join NATO appears to simply be a play to allow a future invasion. Which means negotiations on that basis are impossible- the Finlandization proposals might make sense if Russia agreed to withdraw from Crimea and renounced the DNR/LNR, but in the context of the current situation, 'Neutralization' is out of the question. Ultimately, this is probably an unproductive avenue of discussion because it involves trying to read some strange code for 'diplomacy' out of a Russian ultimatum. Panzeh fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 13:11
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A fairly good point I've seen is that the counter-factual to NATO expansion not happening is not that Eastern Europe would be a peaceful and stable region, it is that it is far more likely that Russia would be pulling the same stunts with Poland and the Baltics as it is with Ukraine right now.
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Feb 8, 2022 13:35
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Nenonen posted:Pretty impressive publicity work, though. At some other time this kind of red herring would have been lost in the swarm of bigger news about Kremlin's and Nato's statements and actions. But now maybe because of the Olympics there was just enough of a lull that an old man's ramblings would make global news. It's due to the erroneous belief that regimes we don't like must be unstable or that their citizens must think about theme the same way we do. Same reason people constantly invent German resistance to the Nazis.
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Feb 8, 2022 13:38
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Alchenar posted:A fairly good point I've seen is that the counter-factual to NATO expansion not happening is not that Eastern Europe would be a peaceful and stable region, it is that it is far more likely that Russia would be pulling the same stunts with Poland and the Baltics as it is with Ukraine right now. It's certainly possible, which is why I acknowledged that if you're living in Poland or the Baltics you're happy with the world we live in rather than rolling the dice on better relations with Russia via good faith diplomacy. Of course NATO membership isn't actually on the table for Ukraine in the foreseeable future, and nobody's going to defend them, so getting occupied and then facing crippling Western sanctions as the victim of occupation while they're ostensibly avenging you seems like the worst of both worlds to me. Something I think a lot of people skip over is that Finlandization was a very successful strategy.
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Feb 8, 2022 13:43
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FishBulbia posted:people constantly invent German resistance to the Nazis. Oh there was none? Please do go on, I'll collect the material to submit to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism.
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Feb 8, 2022 13:57
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Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:Oh there was none? Please do go on, I'll collect the material to submit to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism. It's massively overstated. Most "aryan" Germans were more than happy with their role in the Third Reich til the very end. You should read that page. "the German historian Hans Mommsen wrote that resistance in Germany was "resistance without the people" and that the number of those Germans engaged in resistance to the Nazi regime was very small"
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Feb 8, 2022 14:00
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Sinteres posted:It's certainly possible, which is why I acknowledged that if you're living in Poland or the Baltics you're happy with the world we live in rather than rolling the dice on better relations with Russia via good faith diplomacy. Of course NATO membership isn't actually on the table for Ukraine in the foreseeable future, and nobody's going to defend them, so getting occupied and then facing crippling Western sanctions as the victim of occupation while they're ostensibly avenging you seems like the worst of both worlds to me. Something I think a lot of people skip over is that Finlandization was a very successful strategy. Reading this and the previous post, I cannot help but wonder what kind of punishment do you prefer as workable against an authoritarian regime that is able to arbitrarily shift the costs onto its helpless population? Or should the supposed democracies of rules-based international order simply passively endorse totalitarian rule by might, and not oppose actions like occupying other sovereign nations? Maybe even, when the occupying force is clearly unable to maintain quality of life in the occupied territory - like the situation with water and power generation in Crimea in 2015 - the onus is on the victim nation and its friends or allies to accommodate the oppressor and help them to solidify the control over their conquests? As for “Finlandization”, part of the reason why it worked was because life in Finland wasn’t poo poo to begin with. Were Russia turn into a desolate desert overnight, Ukraine would still have ailing economy - there are some very real reasons for why European association agreement in 2014 was a big enough deal for a stereotypically apathetic (politically) society to rise up and stand in the torrent of Russian crap.
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Feb 8, 2022 14:04
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FishBulbia posted:It's massively overstated. Most "aryan" Germans were more than happy with their role in the Third Reich til the very end. You should read that page. There wasn't much active resistence to the Nazis because frankly that was a death sentence after they consolidated power, but the Nazis were intensely aware that there was a line they couldn't cross where consent for their government would collapse, and the percieved risk of regime collapse coloured a fair number of otherwise strange economic decisions they made leading to and during the war.
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Feb 8, 2022 14:08
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Sinteres posted:It's certainly possible, which is why I acknowledged that if you're living in Poland or the Baltics you're happy with the world we live in rather than rolling the dice on better relations with Russia via good faith diplomacy. Of course NATO membership isn't actually on the table for Ukraine in the foreseeable future, and nobody's going to defend them, so getting occupied and then facing crippling Western sanctions as the victim of occupation while they're ostensibly avenging you seems like the worst of both worlds to me. Something I think a lot of people skip over is that Finlandization was a very successful strategy. Finlandization severely limited the political space Finland had to manouver in and led to, among other things, what would nowadays be called a coup by a semi-dictatorial strongman; highly suspicious limitations in parliamentarism, a highly questionable threat of invasion (which may or may not have been manufactured by the semidictator to maintain power) and overdependence on Russian economy which, as Soviet Union collapsed, damaged Finnish economy for about 20 decades and led to immense human cost. It was so severely limiting in what sort of political speech was allowed that some people bring it up EVERYWHERE even now, over 30 years since it ended. I mean, it was successful strategy - maybe, or maybe not - and the costs vs. actual annexation were small, but it's not a position Finland had a liberty to choose, and there's a reason bringing it up in positive light in here is very much frowned upon. El Perkele fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 14:11
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FishBulbia posted:You should read that page. Thanks for your condescension. You said, without qualification (in two senses of the word), that people "invent German resistance to the Nazis". Since it actually existed, your generalizing statement is wrong. Mental gymnastics won't make it right.
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Feb 8, 2022 14:12
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Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:Thanks for your condescension. You said, without qualification (in two senses of the word), that people "invent German resistance to the Nazis". Thing is, you see it constantly in memoirs. People claim "passive resistance" because they left out food for some slave laborers, meanwhile they worked away at the bomb factory. Seriously, go read any memoir account of "ordinary" "apoltical" Germans. There is a big difference between disparate plots and conspiracies and wide scale societal resistance. There was much more societal resistance GDR which had an internal security service at least 5 times as large as the gestapo, for 16 million people. FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 14:23
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FishBulbia posted:Thing is, you see it constantly in memoirs. People claim "passive resistance" because they left out food for some slave laborers, meanwhile they worked away at the bomb factory. Seriously, go read any memoir account of "ordinary" "apoltical" Germans. You're going in circles. You've made a wrong statement and can't bring yourself to admit it. East Germany didn't slowly strangle people with piano wire (which must of course be made up because according to you, there was no resistance against the Nazis) and there was no more death penalty anymore in most cases after the 50s or so. BTW, according to the article you've asked me to read, "It has been estimated that during the course of World War II 800,000 Germans were arrested by the Gestapo for resistance activities." I wouldn't call that such a small number.
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Feb 8, 2022 14:37
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Mr. Smile Face Hat posted:You're going in circles. You've made a wrong statement and can't bring yourself to admit it. I know about the July plot... that's like so incredibly basic I took it for a given that we were beyond that. Read Western analysis from the early 40s. Many were expecting a revolt of the German middle class or a November 1918 moment. That never came. You had some communist plots and an aristocratic counter revolution once they realized Hitler would lose. That is not societal resistance. It does however make the actions of those who did resist all the more heroic. (except those Hollywood "good Nazis" of July fame). People, especially in their memoirs (and in contemporary analysis) did in fact invent a lot of resistance! Which goes back to my original point of it generally being overstated! FishBulbia fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Feb 8, 2022 |
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Feb 8, 2022 14:42
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Reading this and the previous post, I cannot help but wonder what kind of punishment do you prefer as workable against an authoritarian regime that is able to arbitrarily shift the costs onto its helpless population? Or should the supposed democracies of rules-based international order simply passively endorse totalitarian rule by might, and not oppose actions like occupying other sovereign nations? Maybe even, when the occupying force is clearly unable to maintain quality of life in the occupied territory - like the situation with water and power generation in Crimea in 2015 - the onus is on the victim nation and its friends or allies to accommodate the oppressor and help them to solidify the control over their conquests? That's an awful lot of words you're putting in Sinteres' mouth. The whole situation is awful, and there's no good response to it other than diplomacy. And that's only "good" insofar as the material and human costs are quite low, I don't think it's particularly "good" in that it probably won't be effective.
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Feb 8, 2022 14:44
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Reading this and the previous post, I cannot help but wonder what kind of punishment do you prefer as workable against an authoritarian regime that is able to arbitrarily shift the costs onto its helpless population? Or should the supposed democracies of rules-based international order simply passively endorse totalitarian rule by might, and not oppose actions like occupying other sovereign nations? Maybe even, when the occupying force is clearly unable to maintain quality of life in the occupied territory - like the situation with water and power generation in Crimea in 2015 - the onus is on the victim nation and its friends or allies to accommodate the oppressor and help them to solidify the control over their conquests? I don't think there's much evidence to suggest punitive sanctions actually work, so in that sense maybe doing nothing actually is better than immiserating the people whose rights you're angry about violating. I'm fine with targeted sanctions and even dual use sanctions, but preventing the people of Crimea from engaging with banking services, for example, seems like more of a punishment for them than a punishment for Putin. Tbf, I think there probably genuinely is a desire to punish the people of Crimea for desiring to be part of Russia (partially as a cautionary tale to others), since the self determination of Crimea isn't important, while the self determination of joining military alliances is paramount. I agree that Finland is a far better functioning state than Ukraine, but Finlandization worked because it prevented the Soviet Union from invading and installing a Warsaw Pact regime. There are basically two options weak countries have when they neighbor strong countries, and those are finding a stronger country to protect you (as Ukraine would like to do, but which doesn't seem to be a viable path in the immediate future), or bend your policies to be acceptable to your strong neighbor. If Russia blinks here and backs down, maybe Ukraine will be proven correct in choosing the former path, but if Russia launches a serious invasion, I don't see any way that Finlandization wouldn't have been better.
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Feb 8, 2022 14:49
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 In the pots warmed the bigos; mere words cannot tell Of its wondrous taste, colour and marvellous smell. One can hear the words buzz, and the rhymes ebb and flow, But its content no city digestion can know. To appreciate the Lithuanian folksong and folk food, You need health, live on land, and be back from the wood. Without these, still a dish of no mediocre worth Is bigos, made from legumes, best grown in the earth; Pickled cabbage comes foremost, and properly chopped, Which itself, is the saying, will in one's mouth hop; In the boiler enclosed, with its moist bosom shields Choicest morsels of meat raised on greenest of fields; Then it simmers, till fire has extracted each drop Of live juice, and the liquid boils over the top, And the heady aroma wafts gently afar. Now the bigos is ready. With triple hurrah Charge the huntsmen, spoon-armed, the hot vessel to raid, Brass thunders and smoke belches, like camphor to fade, Only in depths of cauldrons, there still writhes there later Steam, as if from a dormant volcano's deep crater.
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