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Also, winner of SoDak vs Richelieu will still take home the "Best Treaty Battleship" award.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:53
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sniper4625 posted:Get the popcorn ready, my money's on the corn-fed country boy. The more I see Yamato fight, the less confident I am in the Iowa. Those 46cm guns do not gently caress around at all, and Yamato’s belt is a hell of a thing.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:55
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Go go go Yamato 
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Feb 8, 2022 21:00
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those 380mm guns are just a bit too light, I guess MrYenko posted:The more I see Yamato fight, the less confident I am in the Iowa. Those 46cm guns do not gently caress around at all, and Yamato’s belt is a hell of a thing. Yeah I was pro-fire control and SH-AP but those are gonna have to do some work. I think Iowa would do better at range but not sure if the AI can really do that. The SH-AP can deal a lot more damage than the 380/45 m1935 though: 6.2 million lb-ft/s vs 5.3 million lb-ft/s
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Feb 8, 2022 21:04
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Also, in addition to the CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHT and the BRONZE MEDAL GAME, I'll do two other undercards: 1. Dreadnought, or not? Naval history rightly remembers HMS Dreadnought as The Thing That Changed Everything. But was she really as dominant as her historical reputation? Believe or not, there were a few pre-Dreadnought battleships commissioned after Dreadnought. One of these -- HMS Lord Nelson -- will fight her revolutionary contemporary HMS Dreadnought one on one, and we'll see if the hype was legit. 2. War Plan Orange. The Nagato and Colorado class battleships were the baddest boats of their day, but they never really got to settle matters properly. The Nagatos were largely left behind by interwar upgrades, while the Colorados were rebuilt into virtually new ships just before and/or during the war. This scenario pits four Nagati against four Coloradi in their initial early 1920s configurations. No radars, no reinforced decks, just thick armor, 16" guns and way-too-tall masts.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:08
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MrYenko posted:The more I see Yamato fight, the less confident I am in the Iowa. Those 46cm guns do not gently caress around at all, and Yamato’s belt is a hell of a thing. This is how I feel. Iowa's armor is tough as hell, but it isn't even rated against its own shells (making her, techincally, a Battlecruiser), let alone 18inchers.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:13
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Time to say goodbye, to our home, it's been fun but now we're in the battleship Yamato It departs now to faceoff with Iowa, carrying the fate of this tournament. "We will succeed for sure, no matter how many holes it takes!" Answering with a wide smile to the posters waving their hands!
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Feb 8, 2022 21:15
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My money at this point is on Yamato. It's too big and too much armor. I don't care how accurate Iowa's fire is when it can withstand every shot and Iowa can't.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:25
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Yamatos aim has been poo poo. Iowa will damage something vital and then slowly tear yamato apart.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:29
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I'm putting Iowa ahead by an oar's width. It's gonna be an ugly fight, but I think that Iowa's insanely tight grouping and really good armor penetration will punch through and wreck Yamato's engines and midships. After that, it'll be a race to see who floods first and I think Iowa will start that clock on Yamato first.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:38
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bewbies posted:Also, in addition to the CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHT and the BRONZE MEDAL GAME, I'll do two other undercards: Hell yes
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Feb 8, 2022 21:47
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Queen Elizabeths or Rs against Bayerns would be cool to see too if you're feeling like it.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:54
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Well, this is possibly the most theorized alt history ship duel ever, so I'm curious how the game handles it. It'll probably come down to luck, but I think I'm inclined to bet on the Yamato. The school of thought that has the Iowa winning mostly comes down to it staying at range and using its superior fire control, and the AI doesn't seem terribly inclined to do that in this game.
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Feb 8, 2022 21:57
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bewbies posted:Nagati [...] Coloradi Or the Bureau of Ordnance. Raenir Salazar posted:Time to say goodbye, to our home, 
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Feb 8, 2022 22:07
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Bremen posted:Well, this is possibly the most theorized alt history ship duel ever, so I'm curious how the game handles it. It'll probably come down to luck, but I think I'm inclined to bet on the Yamato. The school of thought that has the Iowa winning mostly comes down to it staying at range and using its superior fire control, and the AI doesn't seem terribly inclined to do that in this game. My understanding is the US didn't know that Yamato had 18" guns and probably would have closed the range within 30k yards in an IRL engagement anyways, so that may be reasonably accurate behavior if that's what happens.
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Feb 8, 2022 22:08
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Bremen posted:Well, this is possibly the most theorized alt history ship duel ever, so I'm curious how the game handles it. It'll probably come down to luck, but I think I'm inclined to bet on the Yamato. The school of thought that has the Iowa winning mostly comes down to it staying at range and using its superior fire control, and the AI doesn't seem terribly inclined to do that in this game. yeah, this is my guess too
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Feb 8, 2022 22:09
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I'm pretty happy with Bewbies continuing that joke as the person responsible for pointing it out. 
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Feb 8, 2022 22:32
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Iowa is STRONG and REAL and MY FRIEND and exceeds Yamato utterly in her capacity to produce ice cream. I can't explain why but the part of the Iowa tour where they talked about ice cream put a smile on my face. 
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Feb 8, 2022 22:34
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Pierzak posted:With that kind of commitment to pretending a mistake was your original plan all along you'd have a great career in politics. It actually wasn't a typo, just a dad joke on pluralizing words the end with a vowel that i feel now should be taken as the new way to pluralize certain ship names. As for this fight, I've given it some thought, and The AI actually will keep station at 25km or so if it thinks that's a good idea, but I don't think Iowa could actually seriously damage Yamato at this range. I'm not sure if irl Iowa would've shot more accurately at extreme range, but in-game, I don't think it is possible for her to sink or even cripple Yamato at that distance. Not because she can't hit from that range, but because she can't hit enough. In the kind of engagements these ships would've fought in real life, there was plenty of reason to keep the range extreme (especially for Iowa) and not necessarily go all in for a guns kill, because there were lots of other more effective ways to sink ships than pure gunfire. Guns can damage ships and light them on fire and so on very well and leave the actual sinking to lesser creatures. Here though, if either ship wants to sink the other, as is their mission, they'll have to get closer and land a LOT of hits to do it. Iowa will still have a pretty solid advantage in both gunnery and in target profile, so she'll outshoot Yamato for a while. If she can keep the range kind of in the middle (15-20km), she'll land a lot more than Yamato. However, at that range, she'll probably struggle to get through both Yamato's belt and deck, while Yamato will probably able to punch through Iowa occasionally at that distance. I think that's the risk Iowa will have to take, and hope she damages Yamato enough outside of her belt and turrets at that range, that her gunnery falls off and she can close in and finish the deal. She'll be at great risk from one of those massive broadsides, but I think it can be done. That said, I'm going to put my Official Battleship Betting Odds on Yamato as the favorite, as I think Iowa's margin for luck/mistakes is a bit narrower. It is really tight though...I'd say...Iowa at only +125 or so.
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Feb 8, 2022 22:59
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There's a few points in this tournament where it looked like one ship had done enough damage to mission-kill their opponent without having yet taken meaningful damage only to then lose later on because actually KILL-killing a battleship is hella hard to do. Like, if you clip off the conning tower and put a hole in the bow that'll probably send the ship home for a while, no?
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Feb 8, 2022 23:02
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El Spamo posted:There's a few points in this tournament where it looked like one ship had done enough damage to mission-kill their opponent without having yet taken meaningful damage only to then lose later on because actually KILL-killing a battleship is hella hard to do. I think there's a bunch of places you look at in the tournament where a ship in an actual fleet action would've been retired in a big hurry. For the most part, aside from Ten-Go no one was in a real big hurry to sacrifice their stunningly expensive war wagons, which was one of the main reasons why these things so rarely actually got to actually shoot at one another. We can think of this tournament as more like gladiatorial combat, and it isn't like one can throw down a smoke screen and retreat from a gladiator match. I don't think, anyway.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:16
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bewbies posted:1. Dreadnought, or not?
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Feb 8, 2022 23:16
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Dang, rich. Heck of a fight but Yamato could just take too much
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Feb 8, 2022 23:16
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bewbies posted:2. War Plan Orange. Zeppelin spotters delight
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Feb 8, 2022 23:16
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With these latest seeds just about every winner would be looking at a year or more in drydock, assuming indeed she even made it home at all. There was no way Richelieu was making it back to port after Vanguard, for example. Obviously in the earlier rounds that were just dunks that isn't the case, but even superstructure damage could easily take months to repair.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:17
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The AI is also more much more conservative about closing range in fleet actions.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:18
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bewbies posted:I think there's a bunch of places you look at in the tournament where a ship in an actual fleet action would've been retired in a big hurry. For the most part, aside from Ten-Go no one was in a real big hurry to sacrifice their stunningly expensive war wagons, which was one of the main reasons why these things so rarely actually got to actually shoot at one another. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5FU0ZMRB_Q
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Feb 8, 2022 23:20
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What's the classical equivalent of torpedo hell for that coward to face? A pack of lions, I guess.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:23
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Pharnakes posted:What's the classical equivalent of torpedo hell for that coward to face? speaking of, do yamato or iowa have torps?
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Feb 8, 2022 23:25
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bewbies posted:
 
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Feb 8, 2022 23:31
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ChubbyChecker posted:speaking of, do yamato or iowa have torps? No. For the US side I think the Colorados were the last class built with them, but many (if not all) were removed during the refits of the 20s and 30s.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:55
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If Iowa loses, I'd like to see Yamato vs two SoDaks, because tonnage-wise, that would be closer to fair than any of her other match-ups.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:59
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Affi posted:Yamatos aim has been poo poo. Iowa will damage something vital and then slowly tear yamato apart. Some of that is just because the shells have a long travel time and the ships are fast. It's a lot easier to hit the Yamato because she's huge, not particularly fast, and can't turn very quickly.
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Feb 9, 2022 00:17
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Zorak of Michigan posted:If Iowa loses, I'd like to see Yamato vs two SoDaks, because tonnage-wise, that would be closer to fair than any of her other match-ups. Yes. And wasn't the Yamato built to fight two battleships at once?
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Feb 9, 2022 00:28
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El Spamo posted:There's a few points in this tournament where it looked like one ship had done enough damage to mission-kill their opponent without having yet taken meaningful damage only to then lose later on because actually KILL-killing a battleship is hella hard to do. Apropos conning towers, something that came up earlier in the thread and I've been wondering about -- what is the "conning tower" on a surface warship, and how does it differ from the "bridge"? Like, I'd previously only encountered the term in submarines, where the conning tower is the bit sticking up out of the middle of the hull that you can stand on top of for maximum visibility (if you're on the surface, or have gills) or extend periscopes from (if you're submerged), and then somewhere under that is the bridge which, AIUI, has the full suite of controls and information panels but, being in the middle of the ship, limited visibility. And on civilian ships, the bridge is generally an elevated structure with both all the controls and displays and all the windows, although actual visibility can be quite variable. But based on earlier discussion ITT, it sounds like the conning tower on a surface warship has worse visibility than the bridge, but better armour? Or something?
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Feb 9, 2022 00:31
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The conning tower is basically an armored proto CIC generally lower than the bridge, inside the same structure as the bridge from which you see outside with periscopes, basic electronics and voice pipes and such. The main command crew sits in there and orders things around, if they need extra visibility they go on the regular bridge and die from being shot, as an alternative from having the conning tower's armor dinged by an enemy shell and having a seriously hard time close to uncertain death. So it's basically exactly what you described.
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Feb 9, 2022 00:41
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ToxicFrog posted:Apropos conning towers, something that came up earlier in the thread and I've been wondering about -- what is the "conning tower" on a surface warship, and how does it differ from the "bridge"? There's the bridge, and then there's the conning tower, which is a secondary command structure. It has significantly better armor, but in consequence, lacks amenities such as windows. The idea was that you'd use the bridge in normal times, because it had plenty of room for command staff and equipment, and then when a fight started, you'd transfer to the conning tower, so that your command staff wasn't in danger of being wiped out by a stray shell.
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Feb 9, 2022 00:42
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:There's the bridge, and then there's the conning tower, which is a secondary command structure. It has significantly better armor, but in consequence, lacks amenities such as windows. The idea was that you'd use the bridge in normal times, because it had plenty of room for command staff and equipment, and then when a fight started, you'd transfer to the conning tower, so that your command staff wasn't in danger of being wiped out by a stray shell. Wouldn't it be better to have this buried into the ship like an armored nugget?
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Feb 9, 2022 00:44
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AtomikKrab posted:Wouldn't it be better to have this buried into the ship like an armored nugget? This is something that everybody figured out post-WW2 with CICs
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Feb 9, 2022 00:47
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Here's an example on the Iowa. There is the bridge with all its nice windows and sunshine, and then the massive door to the conning tower within it. 
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Feb 9, 2022 00:47
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