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not wanting to be turned into hamburger by a 16” shell shows insufficient elan
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Feb 9, 2022 00:49
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SerCypher posted:Here's an example on the Iowa. Jesus, that gives you a real appreciation for the thickness we're talking about.
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Feb 9, 2022 00:50
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Best Bi Geek Squid posted:not wanting to be turned into hamburger by a 16” shell shows insufficient elan Seriously what kind of loser hides in a conning tower. 
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Feb 9, 2022 00:55
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ToxicFrog posted:Apropos conning towers, something that came up earlier in the thread and I've been wondering about -- what is the "conning tower" on a surface warship, and how does it differ from the "bridge"? To be pedantic, the "bridge" on a submarine is the OOD and a couple guys with some displays and comm lines plugged in, standing in a little hole on top of the sail (which was called the conning tower, back when submarines were normally operated on the surface), and directing the boat from there via intercom/phone. Actual control is in the Control Room/Attack Center, down below. To visualize a submarine operating on the surface, imagine a bus with all the windows blacked out. There's someone on the roof radioing directions to the guy on the wheel and the guy on the pedals (who is in the back row). This has been a pointless derail.
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Feb 9, 2022 00:58
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gohuskies posted:My understanding is the US didn't know that Yamato had 18" guns and probably would have closed the range within 30k yards in an IRL engagement anyways, so that may be reasonably accurate behavior if that's what happens. Yeah, the IJN referred to Yamato's guns as 40cm Type 94 in all of their official documentation. The US only found out they were 46cm calibre when ransacking the remains of the IJNs archives after the war. lightrook posted:Iowa is STRONG and REAL and MY FRIEND and exceeds Yamato utterly in her capacity to produce ice cream. No ice cream maker on japanese ships, though the Yamatos uniquely had a small soda bottling plant as part of their kitchens. 
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Feb 9, 2022 01:02
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ngl I think Yamato is the favorite going into this. if Iowa kept the engagement at extreme range, it could probably land enough hits to get lucky and win. but as others noted, the ai loves getting within pistol range. I think Yamato outtanks Iowa in that engagement
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Feb 9, 2022 01:07
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Magni posted:Yeah, the IJN referred to Yamato's guns as 40cm Type 94 in all of their official documentation. The US only found out they were 46cm calibre when ransacking the remains of the IJNs archives after the war. That was probably necessary to confirm it, but the USN, through aerial photography and interrogation had managed to figure out by late 1944 that the Japanese had been spreading misinformation. The operational planning for the attack concluded: "An eagerly anxious evening followed for TF 54. Staff officers familiar with range tables took care to remind others that Yamato's 18.1-inch guns should have a maximum range of 45,000 yards, as against 42,000 for the 16-inch gunned battleships in Deyo's force and 37,000 for [the 14-inch gunned] Tennessee; and that her speed should enable her to make an 'end run' and thrust at the transports."
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Feb 9, 2022 01:10
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Magni posted:No ice cream maker on japanese ships, though the Yamatos uniquely had a small soda bottling plant as part of their kitchens. The ice-cream machines on US ships and, more importantly, submarines was actually a really important tool to keep getting sailors Vitamin D.
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Feb 9, 2022 01:10
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US Submarines were extremely cushy in comparison to German and Japanese ones (not sure about the UK). More room, air conditioning, plenty of water (regular crew get to shower once a week!) and the aforementioned ice cream.
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Feb 9, 2022 01:22
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Best Bi Geek Squid posted:ngl I think Yamato is the favorite going into this. if Iowa kept the engagement at extreme range, it could probably land enough hits to get lucky and win. but as others noted, the ai loves getting within pistol range. I think Yamato outtanks Iowa in that engagement Absolutely. She's both significantly larger and somewhat slower, meaning she's putting that heft into hitting and taking hits. Iowa has better tech but she lacks the favor of Issac Newton.
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Feb 9, 2022 01:40
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Flappy Bert posted:"An eagerly anxious evening followed for TF 54. Staff officers familiar with range tables took care to remind others that Yamato's 18.1-inch guns should have a maximum range of 45,000 yards, as against 42,000 for the 16-inch gunned battleships in Deyo's force and 37,000 for [the 14-inch gunned] Tennessee; and that her speed should enable her to make an 'end run' and thrust at the transports." I'm surprised we haven't had a suggestion for the battleship version of Ten-Go. As per your quote, sources indicate that Spruance ordered the TF54 battleline of Idaho, New Mexico, Tennessee, West Virginia, Maryland, Colorado (plus accompanying cruisers and destroyers) to engage Yamato, while Mitscher in TF58 decided to attack independently and only radioed for orders after launching his strike. Given how underarmed ships have had trouble with Yamato it's the three Colorado-class that would save TF54 here. But I wonder how much damage she'd do on the way down.
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Feb 9, 2022 01:44
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With all those tubaboots chances are that Yamato's upper works would be utterly savaged before she put one down. Once they have the range it's only a matter of time before Yamato's fire control is ruined. While they may not get into the vitals (outside of the Colorados) its likely that Yamato will be combat ineffective before too long, aside from what the turrets can see. And that's assuming that they don't get knocked out from side/rear hits.
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Feb 9, 2022 01:58
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Taerkar posted:With all those tubaboots chances are that Yamato's upper works would be utterly savaged before she put one down. Once they have the range it's only a matter of time before Yamato's fire control is ruined. While they may not get into the vitals (outside of the Colorados) its likely that Yamato will be combat ineffective before too long, aside from what the turrets can see. And that's assuming that they don't get knocked out from side/rear hits. My impression of the game's mechanics is that if you can't penetrate armor short of a lucky crit, then you're going to have a hell of a time actually sinking anything. Yamato's big advantages therefore are a) big armor that very few (no?) ships can penetrate outside of crits, and b) being able to penetrate everyone else's armor. If you take out its superstructure and all of its fire control, it'll just maneuver close enough to where it can't miss. If you use superior speed to keep the range open, you'll run out of ammo before it's sunk. I really don't see how anyone that can't penetrate Yamato's armor is going to sink it, given that this game doesn't seem to model armor degradation (judging from the Swiss Cheese Boats we've seen), just whether or not a given shot penetrates.
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Feb 9, 2022 02:15
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:given that this game doesn't seem to model armor degradation (judging from the Swiss Cheese Boats we've seen), just whether or not a given shot penetrates. It does, actually... but only for each subdivision. But without the UI its actually hard to see exactly how much that's happening.
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Feb 9, 2022 03:32
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Nebakenezzer posted:This is something that everybody figured out post-WW2 with CICs During WW2 actually. After the first round of night actions around Guadacanal it became obvious that a) the new SG radar was a game changer and b) current tactical doctrine and the physical layout of the ships meant that full use wasn't being made of this new advantage. To coordinate the flood of information thatw as coming in from the new radars, air and surface, they decided to build on what DD Fletcher did at 1st Guadalcanal. The captain had his XO stand in the door of the radar room, work with the radar operator, and relay the changing situation to the captain. Fletcher was not hit in this action. To build on that, a Tactical Bulletin went out to all ships in November 1942, ordering them to establish a CIC to coordinate and evaluate the flood of information coming in and support the captain's decision making. The import part of the order is that they didn't say how. Some ships put their new CIC adjacent to the bridge, some put it downstairs or well below decks; some ships put the XO in CIC, others made that the gunnery officer's station. Fleet Command back in Hawaii read a lot of AARs and picked out the best arrangements for each class of ships. Detailed orders went out, new doctrine was disseminated, and CICs were retrofitted to ships under construction or in for refits. Basically, the CIC was a crowdsourced, wartime innovation. The Navy had made itself a learning Organization decades prior, and it paid off big here. Read more in Learning War, by Trent Hone https://smile.amazon.com/Learning-War-Evolution-Fighting-1898-1945-ebook/dp/B07BF86ZH2 or watch here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfbPjXAL1C0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmPpqUwtKoE
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Feb 9, 2022 03:35
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AtomikKrab posted:Wouldn't it be better to have this buried into the ship like an armored nugget? People started doing that once you could accurately display information to the command crew using electronics, during the span covered by the current tournament, electronics are more limited, CCTV is in its infancy in 1942 (being used for safely monitoring V2 launches by Nazi Germany) and periscopes are the way to go for mostly everything, can't con a ship in battle without knowing what is around it and neither radar nor sonar are sufficient for that, and periscopes are already pretty limited, you can't make them too complex or not enough light will get through. E: or ad hoc setups during the war itself, I guess. Learning things.
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Feb 9, 2022 03:36
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the armored conning tower significantly predates the ability to stick everything in the bowels of the ship and wire it up otherwise you would have a bunch of dudes with plotting tables and runners and phones and poo poo, like a plotting room on steroids
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Feb 9, 2022 03:40
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Many ships were either built without armored CTs or had them removed in refits because they weren’t getting used enough. Officers disliked shutting themselves inside the towers because then they got less information about what was going on (pre-CIC era) and because even if the armor holds, a battleship shell hitting a hollow container means that Physics Happens to the people inside the container.
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Feb 9, 2022 04:22
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Pirate Radar posted:Many ships were either built without armored CTs or had them removed in refits because they weren’t getting used enough. Officers disliked shutting themselves inside the towers because then they got less information about what was going on (pre-CIC era) and because even if the armor holds, a battleship shell hitting a hollow container means that Physics Happens to the people inside the container. Physics happens but it can be survived, I remember that account of I forget which battleship, Yamashiro I believe, that took a drubbing at Surigao Straight through radar assisted gunnery (then a torpedo to finish it off) and there's that testimony of a surviving officer, shocked and stupefied by the conning tower getting hit, wondering why the paint was peeling off the armor and getting a few burns to the hand because the kinetic energy of high caliber impacts turned into deformation and enough heat to peel paint and burn skin on contact.
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Feb 9, 2022 05:16
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Considering like 10 dudes survived Yamashiro that is some hella luck to walk away from that.
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Feb 9, 2022 05:57
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I'm fairly certain it's Yamashiro since few other ships got savaged that way, the part I really remember is the guy, shaken and stirred, burning his hand on the freshly shot armor.
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Feb 9, 2022 06:25
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Best of three for the final to rule out any fluke hits?
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Feb 9, 2022 07:06
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Doesn't the Yamato have technically worse armor even if it is thicker? I thought I read that because of how they had to make the armor, it wasn't welded or in one piece but instead used rivits andultiple.plates, sacrificing strength for more depth. This may be confused with the next generation one they were developing that got converted t an aircraft carrier mid production. I went down a wiki hole and might be confused. Iowa technically has more advanced armor I believe, but Yamato has thicker is basically what I remember.
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Feb 9, 2022 07:51
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Iowa certainly had more metallurgically advanced armour, but Yamato's was a lot thicker. Its pretty debatable who has the best protection scheme overall, although of course Iowa take the win for protection per ton.
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Feb 9, 2022 08:46
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SerCypher posted:Some of that is just because the shells have a long travel time and the ships are fast. i did some quick math, and fast ships can move half a kilometer before shot shells hit
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Feb 9, 2022 10:07
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TheDemon posted:I'm surprised we haven't had a suggestion for the battleship version of Ten-Go. this would be very interesting, but if it's too hard to simulate, yamato vs. two ships would be good too
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Feb 9, 2022 10:09
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Having played part of this game's extremely extended tutorial, I've come to the conclusion that gun size is by far the biggest factor in victory, followed by belt thickness, and am placing my bets accordingly. We've seen quite a few fights between "heavy gun battleship" and "lighter gun battleship with some kind of accuracy advantage" and the heavy ones always win. Long-range gunnery hasn't been effective yet - sometimes you get a deck penetration as the range is closing, but nothing compares to putting bigger shells through the belt of the opponent at about 12 km range.
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Feb 9, 2022 10:40
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ChubbyChecker posted:this would be very interesting, but if it's too hard to simulate, yamato vs. two ships would be good too The current limitation in UA:D is that you can only have one kind of ship per type (that is, BB, BC, etc) per side. You can have two different kinds of heavy ships on the same side if you build one of them as a BC. The minimum speed limit of a BC is (iirc) 23 knots, so you could kinda get close but not quite.
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Feb 9, 2022 11:06
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Only against the Yamato can a phrase like 'poor little Iowa' be considered.
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Feb 9, 2022 12:25
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bewbies posted:I think there's a bunch of places you look at in the tournament where a ship in an actual fleet action would've been retired in a big hurry. For the most part, aside from Ten-Go no one was in a real big hurry to sacrifice their stunningly expensive war wagons, which was one of the main reasons why these things so rarely actually got to actually shoot at one another. The one ship that had the good sense to withdraw got severely punished by the tournament organizer and bloodthirsty crowd.
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Feb 9, 2022 13:50
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mllaneza posted:During WW2 actually. Neat! 
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Feb 9, 2022 15:08
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shortspecialbus posted:The one ship that had the good sense to withdraw got severely punished by the tournament organizer and bloodthirsty crowd. Yeah I recognize this is vastly different from 'real' Battleship combat. To the best of my knowledge the one time a whole bunch of battleships got together to punch each other it accomplished very little strategically and has caused endless arguments to this day (Jutland).
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Feb 9, 2022 15:20
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Tactically, it was pretty embarrassing for the British and not really inspiring for the Germans, strategically, it was a major British victory, the German fleet never again wandered out of its ports, in part out of respect for the British navy and in a larger part because Willie the Second refused to let them do so, it made the blockade around Germany infinitely more secure and choked them to death.
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Feb 9, 2022 15:58
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SIGSEGV posted:Tactically, it was pretty embarrassing for the British and not really inspiring for the Germans, strategically, it was a major British victory, the German fleet never again wandered out of its ports, in part out of respect for the British navy and in a larger part because Willie the Second refused to let them do so, it made the blockade around Germany infinitely more secure and choked them to death. I'd call 'maintaining the status quo' not accomplishing much but your position is also a reasonable one.
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Feb 9, 2022 16:14
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Jellicoe got a bad rap from it all. As mentioned, strategically his primary job was to not lose, since the real contribution of the Royal Navy to the war was keeping Germany blockaded and that would happen whether the High Seas Fleet had fewer ships than the Royal Navy or none. He did that well enough and was able to keep a handle on things despite a tricky situation. Trouble is the public was expecting Trafalgar 2.0 and they figured not completely and decisively annihilating the enemy in glorious battle was horseshit so Jellicoe ended up getting blamed for insufficient aggression (despite the fact that he'd made the smart play consistently).
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Feb 9, 2022 16:14
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Doesn't the Yamato have technically worse armor even if it is thicker? I thought I read that because of how they had to make the armor, it wasn't welded or in one piece but instead used rivits and multiple plates, sacrificing strength for more depth. The only modern WW2-era battleship under construction I'm aware of that had multiple plates welded together to form a certain thickness of armor for its main belt would be Sovetsky Soyuz. It's something that generally gets brought up - among other notable issues - when people start trying to talk up that ship's theoretical capabilities. Shinano(the IJN battleship under construction that was converted) was simply another Yamato-class hull, but had far more structural issues than its two sister ships for a few reasons - being a wartime construction (and thus subject to time pressure stresses and material shortages) and being a rushed conversion being two of the main ones. Pharnakes posted:Iowa certainly had more metallurgically advanced armour, but Yamato's was a lot thicker. Its pretty debatable who has the best protection scheme overall, although of course Iowa take the win for protection per ton. Honestly, both classes had issues. There's been some fair discussion that US battleship grade armor really wasn't as good as is generally touted, at least against other battleships, and the internal TDS system caused its own issues (mainly in repair times), but on the other hand Yamato's thickest plates were SO thick they weren't necessarily cooling properly at the center leaving them more brittle than they should have been.
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Feb 9, 2022 16:49
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ChubbyChecker posted:i did some quick math, and fast ships can move half a kilometer before shot shells hit The ships themselves are a quarter of a kilometer long, so its kind of crazy the sizes and distances involved.
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Feb 9, 2022 17:54
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OPAONI posted:I'd call 'maintaining the status quo' not accomplishing much but your position is also a reasonable one. If the status quo is, "strangling your enemy to death" then maintaining it is a pretty good accomplishment from a military point of view. The British had everything to lose at Jutland and only so much they could gain, which is why they didn't pursue into the teeth of a torpedo attack.
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Feb 9, 2022 17:57
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"The German Navy has assaulted its jailer, but it is still in jail."
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Feb 9, 2022 18:48
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Grumio posted:Best of three for the final to rule out any fluke hits? Just like in real life battles
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Feb 9, 2022 19:32
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