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MedicineHut
Feb 25, 2016

I must say the current thread title sucks. I apologize as I do not have a better one to propose, there is so little material and CIG gently caress ups to pick from.

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FishMcCool
Apr 9, 2021

lolcats are still funny
Fallen Rib
StAAAAAAAAAr Citizen: it is actually awe inspiring to build a triple AAA studio

FishMcCool fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Feb 9, 2022

Dwesa
Jul 19, 2016

Maybe I'll go where I can see stars
Star Citizen: continued noise of very loud backers has become a distraction

The Titanic
Sep 15, 2016

Unsinkable

jarlywarly posted:

What's the timeline for E:D Horizons versus SC planetary landing.?

I'd say sort of true. :)

That's because in my opinion on that, that was a Chris decision and it was still focused back in the day where he wanted star citizen to be awesome.

There is definitely less importance on making star citizen awesome today, so what I'm really interested in is these other games they're working on with backer money behind the scenes.

For cig it's a cup trick where there's a bunch of cups on the table and one ball, and cig is only going to let you know about the one ball. But each of those other cups is just as important to the overall game, you just don't notice them because you're focused on the one ball under the one cup.

When you have a huge internal roadmap for a 6 or so projects, but you can only publicly show 1 project, that 1 project is going to look pretty anemic. So instead of fight the battle of "what are 700 people doing???" you just hide all of the roadmaps and when something pops up for your one public project it's obviously an act of 700 peoples total focus.

Because obviously it takes 700 people months to put an already created coffee vendor asset into a level somewhere.

You also just run every version update through your marketing team so they can create techno babble for it, as we've been seeing. It's a lot of words for virtually nothing at all.

I guess the real question at that point is if cig is going to self publish as themselves, or if they're already actively pumping out shovel ware under a different company name entirely. I think probably not, because I think they want to be an AAA studio. So I believe they're working on a variety of secret projects unrelated to SC and hoping one of them will be the hit that takes them to the next level of investment capital groups, paying out current investors. Maybe with the goal of selling the company once it hits that billion dollar mark or something.

Dr. Kyle Farnsworth
Apr 23, 2004

Someone built and shipped an actual robot bartender before RSI got their in-game human bartender going.

smellmycheese
Feb 1, 2016

Lol

https://twitter.com/RobertsSpaceInd/status/1491429530342670339

FishMcCool
Apr 9, 2021

lolcats are still funny
Fallen Rib

This is a grimmer and darker future than 40k.

commando in tophat
Sep 5, 2019
Can you actually buy the space pizza or is it coffee stand situation all over again

smellmycheese
Feb 1, 2016

The mushrooms in Super Mario Bros were more fidelitous than this

The Titanic
Sep 15, 2016

Unsinkable

With some minor texture changes, this could literally be out of one of the Mafia games.

I like star citizen in that it's space future is so uninspired that it's basically whatever is modern day or older, except we put it with a weird metal future wall texture somewhere.

Complete with the old counter bell and ripped open candy bar boxes.

peter gabriel
Nov 8, 2011

Hello Commandos

:negative:

Dwesa
Jul 19, 2016

Maybe I'll go where I can see stars
Q: What will the cuisine look like in a thousand years?
:trustme: (creative genius): Hot dogs and pizzas

commando in tophat posted:

Can you actually buy the space pizza or is it coffee stand situation all over again
it seems you can't

https://twitter.com/rabidCRABS/status/1491427264118276102

Dr. Honked
Jan 9, 2011

eat it you slaaaaaaag

Dwesa posted:

Q: What will the cuisine look like in a thousand years?
:trustme: (creative genius): Hot dogs and pizzas

it seems you can't

https://twitter.com/rabidCRABS/status/1491427264118276102

Opening a pizza box on board a ship sounds like a really bad idea to me. I can imagine that opening the box will also open the cargo ramp and then fire everyone out through the hull as the slices instantiate and cause the physics to glitch out

FishMcCool
Apr 9, 2021

lolcats are still funny
Fallen Rib

Dr. Honked posted:

Opening a pizza box on board a ship sounds like a really bad idea to me. I can imagine that opening the box will also open the cargo ramp and then fire everyone out through the hull as the slices instantiate and cause the physics to glitch out

How about opening the pizza box while sitting on a trolley that another commando is pushing up a ramp?

marumaru
May 20, 2013



commando in tophat posted:

Can you actually buy the space pizza or is it coffee stand situation all over again

iirc the pizzas are just box reskins. instead of delivering boxes you deliver pizzas

marumaru
May 20, 2013



posted on /r/sc



quote:

drat you're going to be down-voted in here with that.

But it's still better than posting it on Spectrum and getting a Nightrider / Synthwave ban :D.

quote:

I laughed, also not negative to CIG

Rotten Red Rod
Mar 5, 2002

marumaru posted:

posted on /r/sc



Strangler 42
Jan 8, 2007

SHAVE IT ALL OFF
ALL OF IT

Star Citizen Pizza: Delivered in 3 years or we keep your money anyway

The Super-Id
Nov 9, 2005

"You know it's what you really want."


Grimey Drawer
Love that they made 3 pizzas that are barely distinguishable, and the most interesting flavor is pepperoni and peppers. Truly a visionary fount of creativity this company.

WaltherFeng
May 15, 2013

50 thousand people used to live here. Now, it's the Mushroom Kingdom.
So what cheese goes into cheese pizza

lobsterminator
Oct 16, 2012




They should have an homage to none pizza with left beef.

Dr. Honked
Jan 9, 2011

eat it you slaaaaaaag

FishMcCool posted:

How about opening the pizza box while sitting on a trolley that another commando is pushing up a ramp?

The ultimate weapon

Scruffpuff
Dec 23, 2015

Fidelity. Wait, was I'm working on again?

I'm the melted chocolate placed above the oven.

Shazback
Jan 26, 2013
SQ42 progress is blocked until Mark and Gary return to the mocap studio for additional pizza interaction animations.

ChappedRaptor
Jan 14, 2022
There is a lot going on in this thread. I haven't followed Star Citizen since like 2017 or so and from my recollection all they had was a Single Player demo and a ship walkthrough demo after all of the years of development and money stuffed into the process by customers. Can someone give me an overview of what players are actually able to do in the game at the moment? I am not interested in playing it but I am morbidly curious and there is a lot of extremely biased info going around on both sides.

Time_pants
Jun 25, 2012

Now sauntering to the ring, please welcome the lackadaisical style of the man who is always doing something...

nawledgelambo posted:

I mean they did it when there were huge promises of 3.0 just around the corner with backer faith completely hinged on it and it stifled nothing as far as funding went. So anyways to your point, they could say they're doing a hard reboot and porting all assets and there would be apology posts on the reddits for not believing hard enough

...

You're absolutely right.

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard

CIG VFX Team Recruitment Video 2022 posted:

https://vimeo.com/673739954/a8b1af7327

quote:

This was awesome to watch, and I've replayed it a few times already. I really hope this gets the attention of some amazing talent who are looking for work.

Side thought/comment: To anyone who has called this game a scam, how can you justify that remark after watching this? It makes zero sense that a company would put this much effort into just the VFX side of development if their intent was to betray and scam their customers. If you've followed any of their WEEKLY updates you'd see that most of these systems/features have eventually made it into the PU.

quote:

Part of it is a consumer's inability to understand that while this is taking an extraordinary long time, this is also sadly a large part of video game development.

Similarly to how a movie is often "fixed in post production", a videogame often comes together only after all the tiny systems and features made to work for the game are either reworked or managed to actually fit together and work properly. Crunch, and unlike with Star Citizen, necessary and forced scope restraint are often the prime factors for a game to come together, regardless of if it's good or bad.

So the main reason people are calling it a scam is really because it's both really hard for an outsider who fundamentally doesn't know about all the hundreds of small things that need to fit together, and not understanding how hosed up game development of a big title is.

Even considering here right now it's difficult to piece together just how much work they have in front of them and what they've started for themselves because of Chris Robert and his team's ideas.

What we're seeing in the video is a great example of just how much various poo poo is in CIG's feature-creep bucket of dependencies that overlap and rely on each other, and while we're seeing a sliver of the features they're making; this is why they're hiring, so they can finish all those systems and features.

Scruffpuff
Dec 23, 2015

Fidelity. Wait, was I'm working on again?

ChappedRaptor posted:

There is a lot going on in this thread. I haven't followed Star Citizen since like 2017 or so and from my recollection all they had was a Single Player demo and a ship walkthrough demo after all of the years of development and money stuffed into the process by customers. Can someone give me an overview of what players are actually able to do in the game at the moment? I am not interested in playing it but I am morbidly curious and there is a lot of extremely biased info going around on both sides.

Get a PC you don't care about (or hate) and install it. Use the mouse and keyboard (if you can) to move a camera around the level and look at the assets. In space, there will be a ship attached to that camera, so you will be "flying" the ship. Pay no attention to the fact that the ship can move and spin in any direction instantly and float in place as if it were nothing more than the camera on a level editor. This is Tier-0 physics, Chris Roberts tier physics will be layered in later by the combined effort of 700 people.

There is a lore team writing rich backstories such as "pizza" and also something Chris saw in Star Wars or in an actual game made by real game developers. This is the job you want if you ever decide to give up being a productive worker and apply at CIG.

You will use grabby hands and inner thoughts to use an elevator that has a better than even chance of getting you to your destination. And like the grim futures depicted in films such as Blade Runner and The Expanse, you will carry crates around from place to place. The game has features such as "picking crate up" AND "putting crate down" and sometimes this even works.

You can "bounty hunt" which is comprised of getting a procedurally generated "mission" (if it works), moving the camera with ship attached to a marker, and "shooting" something (if it works), then moving the camera back to another place and if the planets and stars align properly you will be richly rewarded with credits that can be used for

You can also "land" on a planet which consists of moving the camera closer and closer to the planetary texture until you can make out the ground, then just rotate the camera so it looks like you're landing the ship. It helps to make "vroom vroom" noises with your mouth as you do this, since the game won't be telegraphing any realism you're going to need to shore that up yourself.

You will enjoy frame rates that will confuse you, because what you're going to see on your monitor cannot possibly justify them. You're going to clip through walls, floors, and your own body more times than you can count. You will crash repeatedly, the server will disconnect you constantly, and you will enjoy the longest loading times you've ever seen even on the fastest hardware, and like the FPS it will confuse you because once you're in the "game" and see what there is to offer you're not going to understand what took so long.

Star Citizen is a Colorforms space playset for ostensibly grown men, and how much you get out of it is based not on what's there, but on how vividly your imagination can stretch to accommodate what it could be if literally anyone on earth were in charge except the person who is.

Trilobite
Aug 15, 2001

The Titanic posted:

When you have a huge internal roadmap for a 6 or so projects, but you can only publicly show 1 project, that 1 project is going to look pretty anemic. So instead of fight the battle of "what are 700 people doing???" you just hide all of the roadmaps and when something pops up for your one public project it's obviously an act of 700 peoples total focus.

I feel like people have been asking the "what are 700 people doing???" question for at least eight years at this point, though. At least some of that time was spent with hundreds of people all struggling to make glacial progress on Star Citizen; that the progress has become slightly more glacial over the past two years even with the same number of people working on it wouldn't be much of a stretch.

It would absolutely make sense to step back and run a secret game studio inside the corpse of Star Citizen now, trying to come up with a genuinely good game concept that could be successful and use all the assets they've made (and remade, and remade, and remade), since Star Citizen is a solid meal ticket but will never be a blockbuster and if Sq42 shows up at all it'll be too late and too janky to turn things around for them. And it's definitely more hopeful than the alternative, which is that what we see is what there really is: a deathmarch project that can never be completed and will simply squander all the resources thrown at it, run by people who are totally fine with doing whatever they can to keep the money coming in for as long as they can. Maybe I just have a lot of trouble believing that CIG would do something that makes sense, after over a decade of them being the poster child for dumb choices. I'd be more likely to believe that the main difference between 2022 and 2017 is that instead of having hundreds of people try and fail to make substantive progress on Star Citizen, they've just switched to having hundreds of people try and fail to make substantive progress on Squadron 42, honestly.

Mirificus
Oct 29, 2004

Kings need not raise their voices to be heard

Why Star Citizen is taking so long. A short history lesson posted:

Hello everyone. My name is Qeldroma. I've been a backer for about 8 years since 2014. I have been following the game since right after kickstarter. I woke up this morning thinking about why we are 10 years into development and what happened. So I decided to break it down. Not only for myself, but anyone else who is curious.

FYI This is mainly an opinion piece. A lot of my points will be based on factual history. But my reasons why we these 3 things have slowed down development are mainly my opinions. And sorry for the wall of text, I didn't realize I had so much to say when I started typing this. Also one other disclaimer. I'm writing this at 6am. So some of my "facts" may be incorrect since I'm writing a lot of this off of memory.

TLDR: This all comes down to 3 major points that I will expand upon further.
  1. The engine/development
  2. Backer funding and demand "feature creep"
  3. Unforeseen technical advancements
Number 1) Engine.

Most larger game development studios start with a couple things that Star Citizen didn't get the luxury to start with. A large development team and an engine that they are familiar with and has already worked for similar style games.

When Star Citizen was first in Kick Starter Cloud Imperium Games had nothing. They had a small team of, I believe, less than 50 people. And they had no engine to work with. They ended up buying the Cryengine from Crytek. The limitations for this engine were massive, but CIG didn't really know that at the time. So in order to build the game they wanted they have had to make changes to that engine. To the point that it's completely unrecognizable from the original product. They changed from 32 bit to 64 bit precision. They changed the 1st person/3rd person rig. They introduced procedural planets, which I will expand upon further in point 3.

The main issue with this is they aren't done. They are still working on this engine. When a company, for example Bethesda, starts a new game they pick an engine they are familiar with and build off of that. For example whey they built Fallout 76 they used the Fallout 4 engine and made some changes. So they were able to build Fallout 76 in a year. They also had a large development team that were very familiar with the engine they were using. Since CIG's engine is constantly changing, that's harder to become comfortable with.

CIG's problem is they are not only building a game, but completely rebuilding a game engine. Along with many other technologies related to networks, servers, etc.



Number 2) Feature creep

I know most people don't like the term "feature creep" but it's the best way to describe what happened.

The original scope for Star Citizen was massively smaller than it is today. If you watch the 2014 Citizen con demo here you will see that most of the landing is faked. This was intentional. It was going to be 100 systems at launch. People talk about this all the time. And that was entirely doable. Because most star systems would have been copy pastes of each other and all landings would have been a cut scene basically. But the backers wanted more. So CIG introduced stretch goals and the issue was they kept hitting them. People saw the amazing vision for what this game could be and just kept throwing money at it. CIG originally asked for $500,000. They have gained 1000 times more than they originally asked for. For the first few years they continually added stretch goals. Arena commander wasn't originally intended. Nor was Star Marine. Other mechanics were added like ship boarding, melee combat, repair drones, bed log out, etc etc etc. Then they kept adding star systems and even alien races.

So this game quickly went from a pretty manageable easy game that can be done in a few years to a HUGE list of tasks to complete. And that brings us on to the final point, and I feel the biggest. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals



Number 3) Unforeseen technical advancements

This is the biggest one in my opinion due to two things. Procedural planets and the 1st person/3rd person unified rig/usable system.

In [this video] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muMbBMc60e8&ab_channel=Jester814) you can see the original interaction system. This was the system that was baked into Cryengine. See the ugly <USE> symbol that pops up? That was the original way you interacted with anything. Most new backers have never seen that and us older backers have tried hard to forget it. Today we have the kinda clunky, but much more useful interaction system. You hold F and a list of options pops up for you to do. Do you want to sit or lay on your bed? Do you want to open the Aurora door, ladder, or enter the ship? When CIG decided they wanted us to be able to do more on our ships and have our cockpits fully interactable that <USE> function had to go away and make way for something new. The other major change around this same time was unifying all camera rigs and animations to be the same in first person or third person. This is a pretty complicated system that doesn't seem like a big change, but in my opinion it basically restarted development completely when it happened.

For example. Star Marine. CIG hired a development company called Illfonic to build Star Marine. They were basically done with Star Marine when CIG decided they wanted the unified rig. I personally had a chance to play Illfonic's build of Star Marine. But something happened that CIG was not happy with the end product. And again, my opinion, I think it had a lot to do with the unified rig. So CIG basically scrapped that build and started over. This really slowed down development. If you look at videos of the game before this and then after this its drastically different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UaFSd-ezQc&ab_channel=StarCitizen If you look at this everything just looks and feels different. And that has a lot to do with the unified rig.

The other MAJOR thing that totally changed the scope of this game was procedural planets. Before procedural planets things were mostly going to be scripted as I described in point 2. But after, it totally changed the size of this game. We went from 100 star systems being totally realistic to it being a pipe dream. We went from potentially having a finish game in a few years to getting one planet a year. Now, in my opinion this was totally necessary and I'm happy about it. The procedural planets are something truly incredible. The daymar rally proves that. But again, development kind of had to start over again. They were already partly through building planets like Terra because it was just going to be a scripted landing zone. But when procedural planets came online they basically had to scrap that. I think that's why we haven't seen much from the Terra leak a few years ago.





So in conclusion. Development has almost completely restarted at least twice due to major technology changes that completely changed the game. Also having to basically build a game engine from scratch with technologies that have never been done before. This is my opinion of why this game has taken 10 years and will still take many more. But it's been an incredible journey and I've been loving following it.

quote:

Great write up, and important context to understand the truth of the story.

I'd only add a few inputs that bring some sharper focus to some of your points, and add a bit more color to the story.

First, this chart shows the employees per year since 2012. When we try to consider what they completed in "10 years", we have to be reasonable when the first year had only THIRTEEN staff, and the second year only 58 - and that wasn't 58 developers; that was leadership so that teams could be assembled and built out; that was "shared services" such as HR, internal IT support, office admins, finance team, etc. In fact, only 35 of those 58 were engaged in development.

By year four they had only 263 staff, and that was the first year where development staff really filled out - again, most of those developers were still green and still learning, but this is when "reasonable" development started - SIX years ago, not TEN. And it could be honestly argued that this really didn't happen until 2017, where the developer count begins to hit parity with many of the games that this project is often compared to (500 on Cyberpunk vs. 400 CIG devs in 2017, for example). So now we're down to FIVE years of reasonable comparable development. Interesting!

I don't know how this gets so little attention, since this information is 100% validated as part of the required financial disclosures CIG is subject to in the UK. It is not up for debate, and tells such a significant part of the story.

OK, enough about that (though I think this alone satisfies 90%+ of the discussion in this space). On to a few other points, in no particular order:
  • Remember when Crytek sued CIG (and lost)? This had a major chilling impact on where CIG was focused; lawsuits always are disruptive, as you have to shift resources to evidence-gathering, leadership is focused on elements of the legal proceedings and can't also be focused on providing direction on the game in nearly as efficient a manner, some development was likely paused so that they didn't exacerbate the claims made by Crytek, etc. Make no mistake - this distraction was painful for CIG until it was resolved in their favor and certainly impacted development progress.
  • The move to 64 bit was a significant endeavor. You mentioned it, but it's worth watching this 15 minute discussion in 2016 with Sean Tracy on 64 bit. (First up, an aside: the intro discussion validates CIG "branching off entirely" from CryEngine (with the working name "StarEngine") - major take-away is that we would not have the game we have today if they hadn't stopped and made this critical change; max prior distances were 8 kilometers - after the change, they can support positioning with "up to 18 zeros". Absolutely vital to a space game with no loading. But it DID slow down other development, logically, as that development needed to wait for the support of 64 bit to be what we have today (and what's coming with Pyro, Nyx, etc.) Was also critical to implementation of procedural planets.
  • Another big change they made along the way was PBR - physically based rendering. It is responsible for the "screenshot simulator" moniker that SC enjoys today; it is THE most gorgeous PC game ever, and this is a big reason why. Expanding on this idea a bit (of taking time to improve the engine at the expense of "faster" development short term, to get better results long term), this 2014 letter from the chairman has Chris explaining how PBR and other changes as a result of the funding success predicted the game we have today - he mentions cap ship battles (Xeno Threat) and FPS on planets (bunker missions). It's amazing how you can stitch these breadcrumbs over time and see that the vision comes true - nothing is arbitrary, everything is the results of years-long planning, laser focus and unwavering vision. This MATTERS because the alternative would be to cut scope and scale, which would mean not stopping development of game loops and other "playable assets" to instead deliver 64 bit positioning, PBR, and the other things that give the game it's current look / feel / playability. This is WHY it's taking what it takes to make. They are doing what other developers have no stomach for - pushing boundaries, developing the core tech, then building the best game they can as a result.
Just a few key and critical viewpoints in support of your message, all factually accurate and vital to understanding the TRUE development history of this game.

Cheers!

Lammasu
May 8, 2019

lawful Good Monster
I just learned something. No Rule 34 of Star Citizen. Over 400 million dollars and no porn to show of it. That's how little of a cultural impact it has made.

Time_pants
Jun 25, 2012

Now sauntering to the ring, please welcome the lackadaisical style of the man who is always doing something...


This isn't so much cute as it seems like just being a dickhead to an animal.

Woolie Wool
Jun 2, 2006


Those physics sound worse than space sims from the '90s. :catstare:

FishMcCool
Apr 9, 2021

lolcats are still funny
Fallen Rib

Lammasu posted:

No Rule 34 of Star Citizen.

I may have to concede that point to the faithful. This has indeed never been done before.

Scruffpuff
Dec 23, 2015

Fidelity. Wait, was I'm working on again?

Lammasu posted:

I just learned something. No Rule 34 of Star Citizen. Over 400 million dollars and no porn to show of it. That's how little of a cultural impact it has made.

The tickle porn precedes the project so maybe it's a temporal loop.

Play
Apr 25, 2006

Strong stroll for a mangy stray

Mirificus posted:

When Star Citizen was first in Kick Starter Cloud Imperium Games had nothing. They had a small team of, I believe, less than 50 people. And they had no engine to work with. They ended up buying the Cryengine from Crytek. The limitations for this engine were massive, but CIG didn't really know that at the time.

Okay, so, and bear with me here, WHY did CIG not know this when literally everyone else, even people not involved in game design, did?

Time_pants posted:

This isn't so much cute as it seems like just being a dickhead to an animal.

the kitty is clearly enjoying it man. if it wasn't it would just leave

Time_pants
Jun 25, 2012

Now sauntering to the ring, please welcome the lackadaisical style of the man who is always doing something...

MedicineHut posted:

Grey market tho. Same as NFT. No difference in the principle with Star Atlas.

Oh God is there a Star Atlas thread? Please please please please please please

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









ChappedRaptor posted:

There is a lot going on in this thread. I haven't followed Star Citizen since like 2017 or so and from my recollection all they had was a Single Player demo and a ship walkthrough demo after all of the years of development and money stuffed into the process by customers. Can someone give me an overview of what players are actually able to do in the game at the moment? I am not interested in playing it but I am morbidly curious and there is a lot of extremely biased info going around on both sides.

I've done some videos that may help

Basically there is sort of a game there, but its extremely bad. Against that, goons have managed to have fun with it, search kavros' posts for an example.

Rotten Red Rod
Mar 5, 2002

Play posted:

the kitty is clearly enjoying it man. if it wasn't it would just leave

Agreed, that cat is loving that poo poo

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Time_pants
Jun 25, 2012

Now sauntering to the ring, please welcome the lackadaisical style of the man who is always doing something...

The Titanic posted:

With some minor texture changes, this could literally be out of one of the Mafia games.

I like star citizen in that it's space future is so uninspired that it's basically whatever is modern day or older, except we put it with a weird metal future wall texture somewhere.

Complete with the old counter bell and ripped open candy bar boxes.

HAHAHAHAHAHA OH MY GOD THE BELL

I didn't see that at all! Jesus loving Christ. 900 years in the future, everyone.

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