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Raenir Salazar posted:The thing with Britain sniping a state from you that you've been wanting to colonized is ideally supposed to result in agitation for war. It'd be fun if in V3 this gets actually modelled a bit. Like your pops get a wave of jingoism and demands to declare war on specific nations because of minor slights. You would also need to model being unable to switch to new production methods until a few centuries have passed.
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Feb 6, 2022 20:56
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kw0134 posted:Fifty-four Forty or fight, all the time! Just that? Everything up to the Arctic Circle is to become free as States of the Union, except of course your erstwhile ally la République Québécoise, returned to independence and restored her rightful eastern provinces in Acadie and Terre-Neuve. This is the only way to play the USA. All other ways, you prove yourself an enemy of liberty and betrayer of Lafayette. Columbia is the but the Spark for all Friends of Liberty.
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Feb 6, 2022 20:57
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A placard with multiple latitude lines crossed out, creeping ever closer to 90 North for the Manifest Destiny Party's slogan.
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Feb 6, 2022 21:03
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Gotta take out Santa Claus.
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Feb 6, 2022 21:14
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Wiz posted:Malaria is basically shorthand for 'various tropical diseases' and being immune to one set doesn't necessarily mean you're immune to them all. The idea is that penalties from it aren't applied to Pops/Countries that consider the State to be a Cultural Homeland (it's admittedly a little weird to tie it to culture, but it's the only real mechanic we have for 'these people are from here'). Just to note that there absolutely should be some tropical diseases penalties applied to the local populations, even if not quite to the level of impact that it would have on western colonizers. Anti-malarial drugs were absolutely crucially important to the development of the central and west African states, and malaria and some other tropical diseases still have a major impact in many areas of the continent. Like, there's this stereotype that Africans were stupid or lazy, which is why they failed to develop as fast as the Europeans or the Asians did. No, it's just that development needs the population density of big cities and there are plenty of places in the world where you can't really have those without everyone dying of malaria until the development of effective anti-malarial drugs.
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Feb 6, 2022 22:21
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Yeah I was alluding to that in my second-to-last post but like, malaria is still killing countless people in places that were proposed to spawn as immune to malaria. Much like in Vicky 3 though, distribution of necessary medicine is second to ensuring the supply of resources to market. Would you rather spend money to save lives or have easy access to cheap cacao? The market has spoken.
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Feb 6, 2022 22:34
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The idea of an African nation beating everyone else to the punch for anti-malaria drugs and exploding up in power would make for some really interesting stories.
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Feb 8, 2022 02:24
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https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1491064284377407510 In a move some are calling "not the craziest thing he's ever done," Dr. Francia appears to have declared himself Emperor of the Middle Kingdom
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Feb 8, 2022 16:18
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Raenir Salazar posted:The thing with Britain sniping a state from you that you've been wanting to colonized is ideally supposed to result in agitation for war. It'd be fun if in V3 this gets actually modelled a bit. Like your pops get a wave of jingoism and demands to declare war on specific nations because of minor slights. "Ah, we just received a dispatch from Bad Ems-loving quoi???"
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Feb 8, 2022 23:20
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Pakled posted:https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1491064284377407510 I wonder if they are going to include his "White people are not allowed to marry other white people" law and make it give a bonus to assimilation.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:33
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He's basically the person most Vicky 3 players itt will end up being, perfect pick for a teaser.
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Feb 8, 2022 23:50
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I want to see how the game takes to modding in a crap-ton of extra qualifications / professions. I think it'd be interesting if running, say, a foundry took 800 laborers and 200 "ironworkers" instead of just 1000 generic laborers, and the generally fastest (but still slow!) way to get an "ironworker" qualification was working in a foundry. These "expert" pops would naturally command a wage premium until the labor force is sufficiently trained up, so a healthy and well-established national industry would have a huge profit *and* throughput advantage over an upstart. On the flip side, subsidizing an industry with a relative shortage of expert pops would be a great way to attract migrants. On the flip-flip side, those migrants will get pissed as their skills become common-place and their wages and SoL plummet. Bootstrapping a new industry from whole cloth should be *really hard*. Even some production method changes should be drastic -- switching a huge shipyard from clippers to dreadnoughts should require a radically different skill set from the labor force and take years to get fully up to speed.
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Feb 9, 2022 06:35
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The above is a good post and Wiz should steal it if they haven't already.
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Feb 9, 2022 07:35
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Sounds like it should be possible to mod that in since there are already multiple professions working in the same work place iirc. I'm sure as hell not going to play this mod though. It reminds me of those HoI4 mods that break down stuff like infantry equipment to boots and uniforms and it becomes a nightmare to balance production across a dozen different items just to fill out some infantry divisions. I wouldn't enjoy checking the factories across all of Russia if each one has enough cleaning personnel.
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Feb 9, 2022 08:58
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trapped mouse posted:I wonder if they are going to include his "White people are not allowed to marry other white people" law and make it give a bonus to assimilation. what
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Feb 9, 2022 09:17
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Mantis42 posted:what Never heard of this either, but wikipedia knows everything: quote:In March 1814, Francia imposed a law that no Spaniard may intermarry with another Spaniard, and that they may only wed mestizos, Amerindians, or Africans. This was done to eliminate any socioeconomic disparities along racial lines, and also to end the predominantly criollo and peninsulare influence in Paraguay. De Francia himself was not a mestizo (although his paternal grandfather was Afro-Brazilian), but feared that racial disparities would create tensions that could threaten his absolute rule. Fascinating stuff, and I always enjoy learning about historical people from Paradox games.
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Feb 9, 2022 09:28
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I feel like you could get most of the benefit by having factories grow more efficient over time, encouraging not switching to new industries that might eventually be more profitable.
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Feb 9, 2022 10:01
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Torrannor posted:Never heard of this either, but wikipedia knows everything: And they say systemic racism problem is hard to solve!
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Feb 9, 2022 11:04
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Torrannor posted:Never heard of this either, but wikipedia knows everything: Anybody who hasn't heard about 19th-20th century Paraguay should. Lots of bonkers stuff, but it's hard not to be rooting for them the whole time. Even now it's iirc the only nation in the Americas where most people are bilingual with an indigenous language (spanish and guarani.)
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Feb 9, 2022 13:54
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Torrannor posted:Never heard of this either, but wikipedia knows everything: The most Paradox gamer reason to oppose racism: because it makes your absolute dictatorial rule more complicated.
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Feb 9, 2022 14:39
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Starting an apocalyptic war that kills of 90% of your male population is also very Paradox Gamer
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Feb 9, 2022 14:47
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CrypticTriptych posted:I want to see how the game takes to modding in a crap-ton of extra qualifications / professions. I think it'd be interesting if running, say, a foundry took 800 laborers and 200 "ironworkers" instead of just 1000 generic laborers, and the generally fastest (but still slow!) way to get an "ironworker" qualification was working in a foundry. These "expert" pops would naturally command a wage premium until the labor force is sufficiently trained up, so a healthy and well-established national industry would have a huge profit *and* throughput advantage over an upstart. On the flip side, subsidizing an industry with a relative shortage of expert pops would be a great way to attract migrants. On the flip-flip side, those migrants will get pissed as their skills become common-place and their wages and SoL plummet. There's big historical precedent for this as well; when the Protestants basically got expelled from France, since they were skilled craftsmen it first, obviously hurt French industry, but they helped jump start new industries in the places they ended up landing in. So skilled pops of a certain culture/religion who are living under discrimination in one state are more inclined to move to your state if you're trying to start up the relevant industry. It could be interesting for an almost Stellaris affinity style attribute for first generation immigrants, "Ukrainian Steppe Farmers" who give a +30% yield to farming the midwest/Canadian prairies which gradually decreases as they assimilate. So its 15% for second generation and 5% for 3rd generation etc. So you're incentivized to try to encourage immigration to help with various national projects (i.e the trans-continental railroads) but this can result in tensions from interest groups who are opposed to immigration. Even more interesting if this could also reflect and represent seasonal/migratory workers. Since a lot of ideas and skills got spread because people from one nation often went to go find work in another nation, learned things there and then brought some money and those ideas back home. I.e Ho Chi Minh worked IIRC as a dishwasher in New York? But eventually went back to Vietnam and the rest is history.
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Feb 9, 2022 16:52
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Agean90 posted:Starting an apocalyptic war that kills of 90% of your male population is also very Paradox Gamer Surprise they didn't just reload after that.
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Feb 9, 2022 19:16
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Eh, they still got 10% left.
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Feb 9, 2022 19:19
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Poil posted:Eh, they still got 10% left. https://youtu.be/RBEmLhO4KO4?t=1m23s
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Feb 9, 2022 19:26
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To send into another war, of course.
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Feb 9, 2022 20:09
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Raenir Salazar posted:Even more interesting if this could also reflect and represent seasonal/migratory workers. Heck, it would be cool to see some modeling of domestic seasonal workers. Like in Russia during this period, where IIRC the growing numbers of men from rural villages who'd work in factories during the agricultural off-season had all sorts of knock-on social effects.
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Feb 9, 2022 20:54
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It also made a bunch of factories open up near the village labor sources.
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Feb 9, 2022 22:16
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They've said in the dev diaries they're deliberately omitting seasonal swings (lower farm production and labor in winter, higher demand for wood/coal for heat, etc) in favor of an economy design that can abstract away the necessary/rational stockpiling that would be required. So to model seasonal workers I think you'd need something like a pop being able to hold multiple jobs at once and split their labor/earnings between them. That seems potentially impossible to mod in without support, though, and it still wouldn't be a perfect model. Possibly it could be kludged through some effect provided by the state, or a law or production method -- Laborer requirements reduced by X% of Farmers working in the state, Farmers get an additional +Y% of a factory Laborer's wage.
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Feb 10, 2022 00:22
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You could, but is that fun? It's okay to not model every economic factor in a game; it sounds fiddly for the sake of being fiddly.
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Feb 10, 2022 14:43
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I dunno, it feels like there's valid gameplay considerations to model the difficulties in industrializing. China, Japan, etc relied heavily on imported expertese to augment their existing knowledge base. The fact that maybe it isn't in fact enough to simply just build a foundry and see pops automatically convert; but maybe you might need to actually find some pops somewhere else to temporarily work it to get the pop conversion/promotion going? Kinda like in Stellaris with the auction house but instead of slaves its migratory workers or experts/specialists who you're paying a premium for (and unlike Stellaris they'll eventually pack up and leave). Whats great is this can model multiple similar situations, like the USSR importing Americans to help establish their major factories.
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Feb 10, 2022 17:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:I dunno, it feels like there's valid gameplay considerations to model the difficulties in industrializing. China, Japan, etc relied heavily on imported expertese to augment their existing knowledge base. The fact that maybe it isn't in fact enough to simply just build a foundry and see pops automatically convert; but maybe you might need to actually find some pops somewhere else to temporarily work it to get the pop conversion/promotion going? What I think is a bit fiddly and of unclear gameplay benefit is this: CrypticTriptych posted:They've said in the dev diaries they're deliberately omitting seasonal swings (lower farm production and labor in winter, higher demand for wood/coal for heat, etc) in favor of an economy design that can abstract away the necessary/rational stockpiling that would be required. So to model seasonal workers I think you'd need something like a pop being able to hold multiple jobs at once and split their labor/earnings between them. That seems potentially impossible to mod in without support, though, and it still wouldn't be a perfect model. Edit: Actually what you're saying is probably the way to do it and would address the issues if you really want to address them. If your country's farmers depend in part on their income as seasonal laborers, give them an income modifier tied to labor income. Have it additionally slightly boost productivity (reduce the need for laborers). It would reduce rural poverty (if that's an issue), but if your factories fail to be profitable then your rural population loses income and becomes radicalized. This would probably model what you're talking about and I just realized that was basically your conclusion. Still kind of fiddly, but could probably all be represented by some simple modifiers. It would be a tempting option for a large agricultural country to get a boost to their industrial workforce, at the cost of tying the fate of the rural farmer to the nation's potentially volatile industry. Eiba fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 18:04
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https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1491819500752150557 https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/victoria-3-dev-diary-33-decentralized-nations.1509966/ e: some quality keming going on in this linked Wikipedia map: 
ThaumPenguin fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 18:06
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The bigger issue just seems like those would be pretty cpu intensive processes that'd limit other systems, regardless of how cool. Hopefully it's structured so a mod can try that and we can behold the janky glory E: gently caress that canals next week hype ThatBasqueGuy fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 18:09
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Man, I still love that we're getting decentralized nations like this. Definitely a step up and a great system. I think there might be some ambiguity about what they represent though. I'm fine with the compromises that have been made, but the case of the Council of Three Fires illustrates the ambiguity. If I'm understanding correctly, the issue is that it straddles the US/Canadian border, so if the US took the whole thing they'd take a chunk out of what would become Canada, and if Canada took it, the reverse would happen. What's not being represented here is that the US and UK already agreed where their border would be... right in the middle of the Council of Three Fires territory. I feel like if you really want to represent the era there needs to be two map modes. European ideas of "ownership" and the de-facto situation on the ground. The "European concept of ownership" map would be that big empty map from previous games. I think it's kind of important to recognize that that's how the Europeans saw other systems of organization- as just not existing. This notion is important because it's how the Europeans interacted with each other. They could just draw lines on a map and agree to stick to that, even if they'd never been there or met the people. Jefferson bought the Louisiana territory first, and only then sent some people to even scout it. If "European concept of ownership" is just an overlay that has diplomatic repercussions for fellow Europeans, you can make all the native groups you want for the real map. The US definitely did not "own" a lot of its western frontier with Mexico or Canada in any meaningful way, except "legally" (whatever that means). It could just be a mess of decentralized nations out there, with no real US presence at all (until the US confronts said nations), and it would still be solidly US territory as far as Mexico and Canada are concerned. You could use the same system to carve up Africa without setting any boots on the ground. "Sure, King Leopold, that vast tract of land is 'yours,' now feel free to try and do something with it because the people there don't know that yet." And just to reiterate: the current system is a huge step forward. I'm a big fan. I just think there might be another step that could be taken to really model this stuff. Like with "unrecognized" nations, the European fiction had a huge impact on how Europeans acted, and could stand to be represented in game terms. Edit: Actually looking at the map again, this must be a somewhat solved issue because otherwise what's stopping the US from taking Niitsitapi and then the Iron Confederacy and just creating a big ol' bulge into the middle of Canada? Eiba fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 18:38
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:canals next week drat looks like v3 is dead
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Feb 10, 2022 18:47
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Eiba posted:Edit: Actually looking at the map again, this must be a somewhat solved issue because otherwise what's stopping the US from taking Niitsitapi and then the Iron Confederacy and just creating a big ol' bulge into the middle of Canada? My guess is there’s a “54’ 40” or Fight!” event or journal entry that settles the Oregon/Columbia border and likely affects Niitsitapi at least as well.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:47
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Something I'm curious about re: decentralized nations is how much of a "player" they will be. Like I know they will not be playable, but can they, for example, conquer territory from neighbours? Basically, I'm curious if they'll be able to act on their own or if they only act in response to incursions from colonizing nations.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:30
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I bet decentralized state never actually do anything at all, except generating events for bordering nation. Like they might raid you, might want to trade, some pops might migrate, stuff like that.
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Feb 11, 2022 00:32
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Eiba posted:fiddly and of unclear gameplay benefit Yeah absolutely, that was just me spitballing for how the effect might get considered. Really I think the devs have a crappy line to walk here. There's clearly a desire, both from devs and the playerbase, for "historical outcomes" to be at least vaguely likely as an emergent result of the modeling, but this seems like insane hubris. The systems need to be game-ified and grokkable to be any fun to interact with, and systems complexity is further limited by developer resources and consumer hardware. I think that it's probably best to realize it is going to be just a historically-inspired game, rather than any kind of simulator, and interact with it on those merits. There's just too many spherical cows involved.
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Feb 11, 2022 00:56
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