mediaphage posted:

i think it often comes down to one of two things, either you fall in with a group that teaches you something, or you encounter the fraying edges either through your experience or that of someone you're close to.

i think off and on about what kind of person i could have been, in terms of ending up a chud. like i grew up queer in the south in an abusive family and it obviously had an impact on me. if i were straight would i be going to church and voting for trump? christ the thought kind of terrifies me

apatheticman posted:

https://twitter.com/Justin_Ling/status/1491972243638964242?s=20&t=u39GMV2MZAYfZBED08L4Bw

Let's see how they do it.

apatheticman posted:

https://twitter.com/Justin_Ling/status/1491972243638964242?s=20&t=u39GMV2MZAYfZBED08L4Bw

Let's see how they do it.

mediaphage posted:

i think off and on about what kind of person i could have been, in terms of ending up a chud. like i grew up queer in the south in an abusive family and it obviously had an impact on me. if i were straight would i be going to church and voting for trump? christ the thought kind of terrifies me

vyelkin posted:

pretty sure every capitol police officer now drives around in an abrams tank so this will end well

Frosted Flake posted:

That was fantastic, thank you.

I know this is a weird question, but how did we - C-SPAM posters I guess - not adopt that worldview? I mean, like you said it’s culturally hegemonic, it’s certainly all I’ve seen in my lifetime, we’re surrounded by people who actively believe and support it or passively believe it’s the only possibility, “just how things are”, and so on, it’s constantly socially reinforced.

Oxyclean posted:

But it honestly makes a little too much sense to me how young men get radicalized. I feel like i came very close to buying into the "evil SJW" crap in gaming, if not actually kind of believing it for awhile, before it got real bad & became apparent it was stupid as gently caress.

gently caress COREY PERRY posted:

p good content tho

Oxyclean posted:

I feel like i came very close to buying into the "evil SJW" crap in gaming, if not actually kind of believing it for awhile, before it got real bad & became apparent it was stupid as gently caress.

DirtyRobot posted:

[looking back at the 90s optimism in which one was reared, but with an adult's knowledge of what was actually happening, as well as what was soon to come in the near future]



"Oh... lol. lmao."

Dreylad posted:

oh without question. the content folks, it's great. we love to see it.

Dreylad posted:

oh without question. the content folks, it's great. we love to see it.

Frosted Flake posted:

e: Everything you guys are saying make sense. It’s just too bad there’s not a way to predictably catch people at that moment, you know as a mass movement rather than individuals slowly coming to terms with things and finding small online communities or books or social groups.

CLAM DOWN posted:

yeah hold up since when was this a "leftist protest" lmao that would have been broken up in an hour with batons and snipers

Juul-Whip posted:

Oxyclean posted:

I feel like i had some real near misses in my 20s, on reddit and a) non-religious b) misplaced angst about feminism and c) someone who identified with their hobby of gaming.

Being queer and in a heavily queer community was a good means to offset a lot of that poo poo. I mean, I was pro gay rights from well before I was comfortable with acknowledging I might not be straight - but that kind of fueled a bit of an anti-religious mentality. But it honestly makes a little too much sense to me how young men get radicalized. I feel like i came very close to buying into the "evil SJW" crap in gaming, if not actually kind of believing it for awhile, before it got real bad & became apparent it was stupid as gently caress.

Durf posted:

I have no way of telling whose show that is I NEED TO KNOW

infernal machines posted:

who is JIFFY DUFF?

Frosted Flake posted:

I wonder about that too. Liberals divert people to idpol, which fuels culture war, while the underlying conditions remain the same, which causes problems, which Liberals then redirect to culture war 🔄

Would the people who become gamer reactionaries otherwise be leftists if that had been introduced to them first? I think the Bernie and Corbyn campaigns did a not of good for addressing that, though in the 2010s Canada didn’t really have a voice for disaffected young people who feel poo poo sucks and are looking for an explanation why, Peterson filled the void.

Frosted Flake posted:

e: Everything you guys are saying make sense. It’s just too bad there’s not a way to predictably catch people at that moment, you know as a mass movement rather than individuals slowly coming to terms with things and finding small online communities or books or social groups.

mediaphage posted:

i struggle a lot with being anti religious in part because it’s always been such a negative experience outside of being an 8 yo in sunday school, and i think a lot of moderate religious folk sort of wittingly or unwittingly provide cover for the more unhinged types.

DariusLikewise posted:

https://twitter.com/lisaporter2/status/1491644242929795074?s=21

lmao

Frosted Flake posted:

That was fantastic, thank you.

I know this is a weird question, but how did we - C-SPAM posters I guess - not adopt that worldview? I mean, like you said it’s culturally hegemonic, it’s certainly all I’ve seen in my lifetime, we’re surrounded by people who actively believe and support it or passively believe it’s the only possibility, “just how things are”, and so on, it’s constantly socially reinforced.

I’m definitely not smart enough that I saw through the veil, I mean, you’ve seen me post. I’m married to CATO, my old man is a LtCol, my brother is a “Canadian Scholar” and sits on all these panels and committees, Public-Private Partnership things as a Millennial-That-Made. I know when I lived at home I read the Globe and Mail, Economist, Foreign Policy and Foreign Affairs, but I don’t remember thinking anything of it, they were “just what people read”, you know?

I realize many of you likely did the readings, or were organizing or were born and came up in groups that the system more nakedly didn’t work for, but I’m curious how this works. Christman said most people’s political views are just what’s socially reinforced, everything reinforces neoliberalism, how did we end up outside the consensus?

There’s no reason I can see that I shouldn’t hear “efficient market solutions” and say “yeah, okay, that sounds great!”, I mean, that’s what should make sense to me, right? Not now, obviously, because I have done and read all of these things since I suppose, but at some point I should have fit comfortably within the consensus, and I’m wondering how that broke down. I don’t remember if I believed any of that stuff, but I also don’t remember not believing in it, where now there’s no much doubt about where I stand.

I hope that wasn’t too personal or introspective, but I’m wondering why and how these beliefs stopped working for “us”, and how that might be transferable? I’m also wondering if any of you experienced this more clearly because I’m just scratching my head at how all of the social reinforcement would be pushing me towards there.

Maybe I’m looking for an answer within the self but really this is just a consequence of the Neoliberal order breaking down and a certain percentage of people with X class background, Y education, who have been trained to think in a certain way through Z institutions begin to have dissonance with it? In which case, would we expect more people who went to Queens or Bishops or RMC or whatever to slowly fall out of step?

Again, sorry, I know it’s a weird question.

apatheticman posted:

https://twitter.com/Justin_Ling/status/1491972243638964242?s=20&t=u39GMV2MZAYfZBED08L4Bw

Let's see how they do it.

vyelkin posted:

yeah, the whole point of neoliberalism wasn't necessarily to use the state to enforce technocratic capitalism, it was about removing the ability of the state to do anything else. end of history meant end of state power, and third way leaders more than anybody else made sure that "the state can't do anything" became the defining ideology. people might acknowledge that the state had the theoretical authority to do things, but they made sure that the ideological apparatus surrounding the state constantly reaffirmed that it shouldn't, both because it was theoretically wrong and because it was inefficient. everything is more effective when someone other than the state does it, so why would you ever want the state to do anything even if you acknowledge that it can?

what state capacity did remain was, as dreylad says, used to funnel state money to private individuals. sometimes this was in the form of pure graft, but more often it was rooted in the privatization of the state. neoliberal ideology says capitalism is the only system that works and efficiency is more important than efficacy. capitalism is driven by the profit motive which drives people to efficiency, and neoliberalism says the problem with the state is it doesn't have a profit motive so it can never be efficient, even if it is effective - the state might get the thing done that you want, but it will waste resources doing it, so there will always be a theoretical private initiative that could reach the same result for less expenditure. and so the privatization of the state took place, both because of graft but also because of an ideological belief that only privatization could lead to efficiency. and this didn't only apply to things neoliberals dislike about the state, but about everything--private police, private prisons, private soldiers. why spend money creating an effective police force, prison, or military when you could contract it out, get the same result for less expenditure, and get the chance to give a big contract to your friend from university while you're at it? the state still exists but it primarily exists as a clearinghouse for taxpayer money to go to private contractors who provide state functions. the principal thing that changes when government changes hands is not the basic ideology of how the state should operate, but rather which group of well-connected donors get the big taxpayer-funded contracts

of course, it should go without saying that this system only works when the good times are rolling. as soon as it faces a systemic crisis that can't be solved in the course of a single fiscal quarter using a public-private contract, it collapses because the state no longer has the capacity to do effective long-term planning and the private contractors either aren't interested in it or aren't capable of doing it either. neoliberalism teaches that there is nothing outside the market, and so it cannot conceive of problems that are legitimate market failures. it either stalls on those problems, acknowledging that they exist but remaining unable to solve them, or its ratcheting mechanism reassures the neoliberal mind that the solution is more of the market, because these market mechanisms cannot fail, because there is no ideological alternative to them. the pandemic or climate change are problems that exist outside the market and that cannot be solved by the market, because in both cases the short-term profit incentives cause drastic long-term consequences far out of proportion to the short-term choices that caused them

this is why we keep doubling down on bad responses to both these systemic problems, because our political class is entirely wedded to the neoliberal view of the world as one big market where private enterprise is the driving force of history and where the only efficient thing for the state to do is to get out of the way, but these problems are ones that are made worse by the market, not better, and therefore cannot be solved through this model. sometimes a far-sighted individual might break the trend and try to do what's healthy in the long-run, but the short-term incentives to stab that person in the back and go back to opening the economy or burning coal are just too great, and because nothing exists outside the market our leaders simply cannot conceive of a long-term solution that might overcome the short-term perversions of the profit motive.

vyelkin posted:

yeah, the whole point of neoliberalism wasn't necessarily to use the state to enforce technocratic capitalism, it was about removing the ability of the state to do anything else. end of history meant end of state power, and third way leaders more than anybody else made sure that "the state can't do anything" became the defining ideology. people might acknowledge that the state had the theoretical authority to do things, but they made sure that the ideological apparatus surrounding the state constantly reaffirmed that it shouldn't, both because it was theoretically wrong and because it was inefficient. everything is more effective when someone other than the state does it, so why would you ever want the state to do anything even if you acknowledge that it can?

what state capacity did remain was, as dreylad says, used to funnel state money to private individuals. sometimes this was in the form of pure graft, but more often it was rooted in the privatization of the state. neoliberal ideology says capitalism is the only system that works and efficiency is more important than efficacy. capitalism is driven by the profit motive which drives people to efficiency, and neoliberalism says the problem with the state is it doesn't have a profit motive so it can never be efficient, even if it is effective - the state might get the thing done that you want, but it will waste resources doing it, so there will always be a theoretical private initiative that could reach the same result for less expenditure. and so the privatization of the state took place, both because of graft but also because of an ideological belief that only privatization could lead to efficiency. and this didn't only apply to things neoliberals dislike about the state, but about everything--private police, private prisons, private soldiers. why spend money creating an effective police force, prison, or military when you could contract it out, get the same result for less expenditure, and get the chance to give a big contract to your friend from university while you're at it? the state still exists but it primarily exists as a clearinghouse for taxpayer money to go to private contractors who provide state functions. the principal thing that changes when government changes hands is not the basic ideology of how the state should operate, but rather which group of well-connected donors get the big taxpayer-funded contracts

of course, it should go without saying that this system only works when the good times are rolling. as soon as it faces a systemic crisis that can't be solved in the course of a single fiscal quarter using a public-private contract, it collapses because the state no longer has the capacity to do effective long-term planning and the private contractors either aren't interested in it or aren't capable of doing it either. neoliberalism teaches that there is nothing outside the market, and so it cannot conceive of problems that are legitimate market failures. it either stalls on those problems, acknowledging that they exist but remaining unable to solve them, or its ratcheting mechanism reassures the neoliberal mind that the solution is more of the market, because these market mechanisms cannot fail, because there is no ideological alternative to them. the pandemic or climate change are problems that exist outside the market and that cannot be solved by the market, because in both cases the short-term profit incentives cause drastic long-term consequences far out of proportion to the short-term choices that caused them

this is why we keep doubling down on bad responses to both these systemic problems, because our political class is entirely wedded to the neoliberal view of the world as one big market where private enterprise is the driving force of history and where the only efficient thing for the state to do is to get out of the way, but these problems are ones that are made worse by the market, not better, and therefore cannot be solved through this model. sometimes a far-sighted individual might break the trend and try to do what's healthy in the long-run, but the short-term incentives to stab that person in the back and go back to opening the economy or burning coal are just too great, and because nothing exists outside the market our leaders simply cannot conceive of a long-term solution that might overcome the short-term perversions of the profit motive.

vyelkin posted:

Aspro comes out of the MRI room and goes home to the wrong house like it's The Irony of Fate

vyelkin posted:

yes, that's a reference to a Soviet comedy film, and no I will not explain the reference

CLAM DOWN posted:

https://twitter.com/glen_mcgregor/status/1491872930782855183

Frosted Flake posted:

I’m glad I’m not crazy at seeing the Colour Revolution similarities.

But organized by who? What is pushing this organized and funded attack on the centralized Canadian state?

canadian labour congress posted:

Canada’s unions have fought for generations for the right to protest. This is a cornerstone of our democratic system. But what we have witnessed on the streets of Canada’s capital over the past thirteen days is something different altogether. This is not a protest, it is an occupation by an angry mob trying to disguise itself as a peaceful protest

We have seen an occupation of city streets and parks, disrupting workers, businesses and residents. Frontline workers, from retail to health workers, have been bullied and harassed. We have witnessed noise attacks keeping families up at all hours. We have seen right-wing extremists spreading messages filled with racism and intolerance, flying the Nazi and Confederate flags, alongside other symbols of violence and hate. We have seen organizers not only demand the end of all public health rules, but also call for the overthrow of our democratically elected government.

The leaders of this occupation include people who espoused Islamophobic, Anti-Semitic and racist hate on social media, organizers of the notorious far-right yellow vest protests, and people spreading extreme conspiracy theories and calls for violence. This is an attack on all of Canada and not just the people of Ottawa.

Canada’s unions stand together, unequivocally opposed to these vile and hateful messages and condemn the ongoing harassment and violence against the people of Ottawa.

This occupation of Ottawa streets, on top of the latest wave of the pandemic, is having a devastating effect on the livelihood of already struggling workers and businesses. Workers are being harassed and bullied for just trying to stay safe while serving customers. Other businesses are being forced to close, which leaves them and their employees suffering economic losses they can ill afford.

This occupation has also raised serious questions about an uneven application of policing. Authorities spent the first week taking a hands-off approach to the occupation of city streets and parks, not even handing out parking tickets as big rigs blocked busy intersections and local businesses were forced to shutter. This is a far cry from the kinds of crackdowns we have seen in the past towards Indigenous land protests, Black Lives Matter and other equity-seeking activists or striking workers.

Over the past thirteen days, we have seen an unacceptable lack of leadership from those charged with maintaining the peace and defending public safety. Once this situation has been resolved, Canada’s unions believe it is vital that there be a full investigation into the response by all levels of government to this occupation.

The Omicron wave is still affecting our communities and Canada’s health care systems are inundated with patients and plagued by shortages of nurses, doctors and health care workers. Canada’s unions believe it is absolutely critical that public health decisions are based on science, and not on politics or an angry mob. We continue to call for strong occupational health & safety measures for all workers.

Canada’s unions call on the federal and provincial governments to work together and quickly deliver urgently needed direct supports to the workers and businesses affected.

It is time for all levels of government to work together to help the people affected and put an end to this occupation of our nation’s capital.