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steinrokkan posted:I don't think it's possible to separate the two, this conflict isn't only about Ukraine, and even if Ukraine conceded on the issues concerning it, it would still be entrapped by being an accessory in the grudge Russia has with the NATO and EU over which it has no control. Right, Ukrainians and Russians have no agency and this is all about Putin and NATO.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:45
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Sinteres posted:Yes, this is exactly the phenomenon I'm talking about, in which every US adversary through the years is considered to be literally Hitler just to make clear to everyone that nothing short of their destruction will leave the world safe for freedom and democracy.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:46
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Cugel the Clever posted:All we're asking for is Putin to not invade his neighbors. 
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Feb 12, 2022 20:47
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Cugel the Clever posted:All we're asking for is Putin to not invade his neighbors. Okay but my original question was saying once you've decided Putin is evil and is going to invade, would there have been anything worth offering as a concession to avoid it. If you don't think so, you can just say that.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:47
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Sinteres posted:Okay but my original question was saying once you've decided Putin is evil and is going to invade, would there have been anything worth offering as a concession to avoid it. If you don't think so, you can just say that. And you got plenty of responses to your question.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:49
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Why won't these warmongering Ukrainians just lay on their back and keep conceeeding their independence away, do they really hate peace this much?
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Feb 12, 2022 20:49
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Sinteres posted:Okay but my original question was saying once you've decided Putin is evil and is going to invade, would there have been anything worth offering as a concession to avoid it. If you don't think so, you can just say that. Again: Putin made his demands largely public. None of them are even remotely negotiable. And that was by design. You are reaching for a concession that doesn't exist or Putin doesn't want.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:49
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cinci zoo sniper posted:And you got plenty of responses to your question. Not really anything beyond 'appeasement absolutely never could have worked so there's no point in even considering whether any concessions would have been worthwhile,' which seems absurd to me.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:50
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Nenonen posted:Russia is doing the same sing and dance as GWB and Blair did with Iraq on weapons of mass destruction. These are not demands, they are just a game to get to a point where calm Putin can just say that he's sorry that Ukraine and Nato can't be discussed with and he has no other options but to defend Russia by invading Ukraine. It's all a show. This is such a perfect analogy it deserves it's to be re-quoted. Seriously getting 2003 Iraq War vibes when the US/British demands were obviously ridiculous and designed to never be followed through and was all meant to buy time for the military build up for invasion. Ditto for what Putin has been demanding of Ukraine. Sinteres posted:Not really anything beyond 'appeasement absolutely never could have worked so there's no point in even considering whether any concessions would have been worthwhile,' which seems absurd to me. Oh my god shut up.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:50
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The thread's position is Russia demands unconditional surrender and Ukrainians should spill every drop of blood in their veins to oppose said indignity. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 12, 2022 20:51
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Sinteres posted:Find another analogy. Maybe they could have a big meeting somewhere in Germany to agree to Putin's offramp, I think you have something here  Maybe Munich?
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Feb 12, 2022 20:52
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Sinteres posted:Not really anything beyond 'appeasement absolutely never could have worked so there's no point in even considering whether any concessions would have been worthwhile,' which seems absurd to me. I’m sorry you feel baffled that someone dared to disagree with you. It may make for a more conductive conversation if your question will not elaborately angled to try to moralise over everyone you disagree with as irrational or thirsty for Ukrainian blood.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:52
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Conspiratiorist posted:The thread's position is Russia demands unconditional surrender and Ukrainians should spill every drop of blood in their veins to oppose said indignity. I think your confusing this thread for Putin's position.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:52
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No I'm sure Putin would prefer Ukrainians just gave up without a fight.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:53
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Conspiratiorist posted:Right, Ukrainians and Russians have no agency and this is all about Putin and NATO. First, yes I think on the Russian side it's about Putin and not the will of the people to start a war. To say otherwise seems racist, for reasons I hope are obvious. Second, States can be held hostage despite their will by more powerful countries using them to serve their interests, as is the case here. Which is why alliances are important for security, and why Putin is so adamant about keeping his neighbours out of any he doesn't control. Even if Ukraine accepted to give up its territorial claims on Donetsk etc., I don't think it would change anything and in any way diffuse the situation, because that is not why Russia is rattling its sabres. After all, that's already the status quo, by any factual measure, and I don't think this is about symbolic gestures of recognition. It's about wider geopolitics, and extorting concessions from the West, which Ukraine can't give, even if it wanted to. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 12, 2022 |
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Feb 12, 2022 20:54
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I think talking as if it is all happenning out of nothing and ignoring Russian actions from 2014 to this day is ridiculous. Just do concessions bro it is so easy, that maneating bear is very trustworthy! What do you mean passenger planes start exploding when russian forces come in
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Feb 12, 2022 20:54
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I’m sorry you feel baffled that someone dared to disagree with you. It may make for a more conductive conversation if your question will not elaborately angled to try to moralise over everyone you disagree with as irrational or thirsty for Ukrainian blood. I'm glad everyone will have a clear conscience regardless of the outcome then I guess.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:54
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Sinteres posted:I'm glad everyone will have a clear conscience regardless of the outcome then I guess. This is D&D: we are debating things we have no control over.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:55
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Sinteres posted:Cognitive dissonance is obviously a real phenomenon, and that's what I think is happening. I'm not going to belabor the point, but I think that would be a natural progression. Deciding an opponent is irrational and can't be reasoned or bargained with in any way is obviously a common thing to do, but I think there are plenty of examples of it leading to dramatically worse outcomes than negotiation. Pretty sure the ones on the “let’s just keep feeding this mouse fuckin cookies, eventually he’ll stop wanting them” side are the ones arguing that Putin is irrational.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:55
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Conspiratiorist posted:This is D&D: we are debating things we have no control over. I don't know about you, but I certainly have regrets for supporting policies that have led to harm in the past, regardless of whether or not my support materially affected the outcome. Maybe it's a happier life not to worry about such things, so like I said, I guess I'm glad everyone will have a clean conscience. I just hope if the outcome is bad people will reconsider their position in the future.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:56
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Sinteres posted:I don't know about you, but I certainly have regrets for supporting policies that have led to harm in the past, regardless of whether or not my support materially affected the outcome. Maybe it's a happier life not to worry about such things, so like I said, I guess I'm glad everyone will have a clean conscience. I just hope if the outcome is bad people will reconsider their position in the future. Come to think of it, Russia should consider retaking Alaska.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:57
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Oh poo poo, a lot of new posts in the EE thread. Did something important happen? Has the invasion begun?Sinteres posted:Pages of smug shitposting Please, kindly, gently caress off.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:57
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Hard to even imagine how you could blame anyone other than russia for russia deciding to launch an unprovoked offensive-invasion.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:59
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steinrokkan posted:Even if Ukraine accepted to give up its territorial claims on Donetsk etc., I don't think it would change anything and in any way diffuse the situation, because that is not why Russia is rattling its sabres. It'd be a good crank because then Putin loses his CB.
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Feb 12, 2022 20:59
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Hard to even imagine how you could blame anyone other than russia for russia deciding to launch an unprovoked offensive-invasion. Again, I very clearly went with the assumption that Putin is evil/unjustified/however you want to look at it in the phrasing of my question, and simply asked if there's more that could have been done for peace even knowing that. 'We dont negotiate with terrorists' (or 'it's literally impossible to negotiate with him short of total surrender') seems to be the consensus, so I'll take it as answered, but you're misrepresenting my position here now. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 12, 2022 21:00
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Conspiratiorist posted:It'd be a good crank because then Putin loses his CB. This isn't Europa Universalis, he has no CB as is (or one anybody believes, which is the same thing), and he needs none.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:02
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Sinteres posted:Cognitive dissonance is obviously a real phenomenon, and that's what I think is happening. I'm not going to belabor the point, but I think that would be a natural progression. Deciding an opponent is irrational and can't be reasoned or bargained with in any way is obviously a common thing to do, but I think there are plenty of examples of it leading to dramatically worse outcomes than negotiation. This is a hilariously bad post that makes no sense. Obviously.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:02
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Sinteres posted:I'm glad everyone will have a clear conscience regardless of the outcome then I guess. As if this gay dead comedy forum has an influence on Putin's mind. It's all on his conscience in case you need to be reminded.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:02
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Sinteres posted:Again, I very clearly went with the rear endumption that Russia is evil/unjustified/however you want to look at it in the phrasing of my question, and simply asked if there's more that could have been done for peace even knowing that. Clearly. Sinteres posted:'We dont negotiate with terrorists' seems to be the consensus, so I'll take it as answered, but you're misrepresenting my position here now. That's not the consensus. It's you don't make dumb deals with authoritarian leaders who have a history of being aggressors and are still attacking others.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:03
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Sinteres posted:Again, I very clearly went with the assumption that Russia is evil/unjustified/however you want to look at it in the phrasing of my question, and simply asked if there's more that could have been done for peace even knowing that. 'We dont negotiate with terrorists' seems to be the consensus, so I'll take it as answered, but you're misrepresenting my position here now. If there was some reasonable offramp that Russia wanted to have and there were any reasonable negotiations on the table, Lavrov would probably have indicated that at some point instead of constantly going "this is what we demand, give it or die". If he wanted negotiations, he and Putin wouldn't be wasting time haranguing Macron about the last 30 year.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:03
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Sinteres posted:asked if there's more that could have been done for peace even knowing that. Considering that Putin kept breaking stuff like armistice agreements he (co)wrote up and signed, I'm not sure why do you exactly expect him to abide to the next piece of paper. Do you believe this time he'll see the error of his ways or what.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:05
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Hard to even imagine how you could blame anyone other than russia for russia deciding to launch an unprovoked offensive-invasion. My 'favorite' else-where take is that the US should just surrender Ukraine to Russia because Russia is in a 'security spiral' and needs the W in order to become rational again. NATO's at fault anyways, for existing.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:05
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You just aren't prostrating yourselves before Putin the Great hard enough for him to dispense his most wise demands. Such is the analysis of me, the most special boy wonder with the greatest brain in the tri-county area
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Feb 12, 2022 21:06
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steinrokkan posted:This isn't Europa Universalis, he has no CB as is (or one anybody believes, which is the same thing), and he needs none. I've got real bad news for you about how far having some kind of excuse makes way through popular discourse.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:07
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sinteres, do you have in mind any concessions that would have mollified russia and also don't completely scrap the modern western security framework? is it that you have specific actionable things that would have averted this crisis and they were ignored by western and ukranian governments, or is your point that there are nebulous concessions that no one on this forum knows about that would have averted the crisis, and it's our fault for not finding them?
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Feb 12, 2022 21:09
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The phenomena that is cognitive dissonance (holding opposing opinions) is strong in this one. Edit: as it would be if you were only allowed to think one way.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:09
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Conspiratiorist posted:I've got real bad news for you about how far having some kind of excuse makes way through popular discourse. I mean his cohort, both domestic and international, would defend him if he declared war over a stubbed toe, and none of his actual peers care about the nominal excuse he comes up with
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Feb 12, 2022 21:10
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Sinteres posted:I'm glad everyone will have a clear conscience regardless of the outcome then I guess.
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Feb 12, 2022 21:14
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If I may ask... what do you, the others posters in this thread, think should be the NATO response to this situation? I have my own thoughts on that, but I think that it might be a bit tainted by my very strong biases against Putin. Namely that the analogy to Munich 1938 really does apply in this case, and that this needs to be stopped now even if that means a fight really does happen. To me this whole situation and the prospect of this turning into a real war is awful, but... is there really another way to settle this that isn't just a token gesture or yet more appeasement? I guess I'm trying to grasp at straws in the hope that there is a better solution, because... I'd like to believe there is one? That there is a way that something horrific isn't going to happen?
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Feb 12, 2022 21:19
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:sinteres, do you have in mind any concessions that would have mollified russia and also don't completely scrap the modern western security framework? is it that you have specific actionable things that would have averted this crisis and they were ignored by western and ukranian governments, or is your point that there are nebulous concessions that no one on this forum knows about that would have averted the crisis, and it's our fault for not finding them? Obviously I can't speak for Sinteres who it looks like was probed for having a position in opposition to the unhinged blood lust ITT, but scrapping the Western security framework seems like a pretty good goal. Do you seriously thing anyone in a Western nation is threatened by Russia? The FSB isn't going to inject you with Polonium for having weird opinions about Russians, Des Moines not going to get strafed MIGs. For a serious solution to the problem we should try making NATO North Atlantic again. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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