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Bathtub Cheese posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw ....what the hell does this have to do with Russia demanding Ukraine, a country who is independent of them, immediately submit to their whims? What does that have to do with stationing multiple divisions immediately on Ukraine's border as a threat? Or Russia invading in 2014 in Donbass and annexing Crimea? Are these not colonialism? Where's the US forces pushing this neocolonialism you are talking about in Urkaine?
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Feb 17, 2022 00:30
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Cugel the Clever posted:It's also potentially (but not necessarily) indicative of media consumption. Moscow-oriented media sticks with the pejorative usage, so folks who are quick to downplay Russia's belligerence while centering complaints about the West and Ukraine will often go with the language they hear most. Yes yes, you've nailed it on the head. There's a secret media cabal spreading lies at the behest of the Russians, and they can be spotted by their use of the word "the".
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Feb 17, 2022 00:49
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A bizarre number of CHUDS are overtly adopting the narrative that Ukraine was drifting toward the EU and being corrupted or forced to adopt more friendly LGBT attitudes. Ergo, Putin needs to liberate the country to restore Christian rights. It's not particularly new, but it's still weird to see offline.
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Feb 17, 2022 00:50
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Grammarchist posted:A bizarre number of CHUDS are overtly adopting the narrative that Ukraine was drifting toward the EU and being corrupted or forced to adopt more friendly LGBT attitudes. Ergo, Putin needs to liberate the country to restore Christian rights. It's not particularly new, but it's still weird to see offline. Chuds and the Russian government have basically the same stance on everything.
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Feb 17, 2022 00:52
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Bathtub Cheese posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw I would generally prefer for youtube links to include a brief summary of what the video is and says in addition to the "please try to add a little cogent commentary" requirement, which you admittedly passed in this case. It's unreasonable to expect people to watch a video to have any idea what you're talking about.
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Feb 17, 2022 00:54
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Grammarchist posted:A bizarre number of CHUDS are overtly adopting the narrative that Ukraine was drifting toward the EU and being corrupted or forced to adopt more friendly LGBT attitudes. Ergo, Putin needs to liberate the country to restore Christian rights. It's not particularly new, but it's still weird to see offline. I mean, the EU does tend to push back on a lot of anti-LGBT stuff (this is happening with Poland and Hungary iirc). So for once, CHUDs not wrong, but also: on the side of the oppressors. So still wrong.
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Feb 17, 2022 00:54
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I would generally prefer for youtube links to include a brief summary of what the video is and says in addition to the "please try to add a little cogent commentary" requirement, which you admittedly passed in this case. It's unreasonable to expect people to watch a video to have any idea what you're talking about. This is also a good general practice because it's impossible to know in advance if a video is blocked in some countries or just won't display any title or graphic because the rights holder blocked it playing on other platforms, which are cases where someone is extremely likely to just scroll past it
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Feb 17, 2022 00:56
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CommieGIR posted:....what the hell does this have to do with Russia demanding Ukraine, a country who is independent of them, immediately submit to their whims? What does that have to do with stationing multiple divisions immediately on Ukraine's border as a threat? Or Russia invading in 2014 in Donbass and annexing Crimea? Are these not colonialism? Crimea voted for annexation and the US funded and aided the overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected government in 2014. The US sells lethal aid to a government allied with the home-grown fascist squadristi like Azov battalion who are proud of their heritage as Nazi collaborators. Said illegitimate government has abrogated the human rights of communists throughout the country by banning symbols and political parties. The US has also furnished credit to this illegitimate government through international financial institutions. These means (arms sales and international credit) both are used to redistribute the wealth of a targeted nation such as Ukraine into American hands. The US has no legitimate role or interest in the region whatsoever and escalation with Russia is an existential threat to humanity as a whole. Why should anyone take the tendentious framing of the issue from a government employee seriously?
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Feb 17, 2022 00:57
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Europe or the EU is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more friendly towards minority and LGBTQs than Russia. Granted, not perfect.
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Feb 17, 2022 00:57
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CommieGIR posted:I mean, the EU does tend to push back on a lot of anti-LGBT stuff (this is happening with Poland and Hungary iirc). So for once, CHUDs not wrong, but also: on the side of the oppressors. So still wrong. This speaks more to the west/east divide in the EU. Eastern EU countries tend to be more homophobic, mysognystic, and authoritarian. So naturally they align more with Russia and American conservatives.
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Feb 17, 2022 00:59
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Crimea voted for annexation and the US funded and aided the overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected government in 2014. The US sells lethal aid to a government allied with the home-grown fascist squadristi like Azov battalion who are proud of their heritage as Nazi collaborators. They have also furnished credit to this illegitimate government through international financial institutions. These means both are used to redistribute the wealth of a targeted nation such as Ukraine into American hands. They voted for Annexation AFTER Russia had already annexed them. This is straight up post hoc validation. Also: Are you going to vote against the people who just rolled armored trucks into your country to overthrow them? Bathtub Cheese posted:Crimea voted for annexation and the US funded and aided the overthrow of Ukraine's democratically elected government in 2014. The US sells lethal aid to a government allied with the home-grown fascist squadristi like Azov battalion who are proud of their heritage as Nazi collaborators. They have also furnished credit to this illegitimate government through international financial institutions. These means both are used to redistribute the wealth of a targeted nation such as Ukraine into American hands. We discussed this: Putin regularly also employs Nazis. See again: the Wagner Group, who are active in the Donbass. Are you suggesting the entirety of Ukraine is supportive of the Azov battalion, therefore Putin is justified? Man, I hope Putin notices all the US Nazis he effectively supported as well. Bathtub Cheese posted:The US has no legitimate role or interest in the region whatsoever and escalation with Russia is an existential threat to humanity as a whole. Why should anyone take the tendentious framing of the issue from a government employee seriously? Your right! Which is why the US openly said they would likely not openly oppose a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Imagine that. But the US isn't the one staging multiple divisions on the border of Ukraine or banging war drums to get their way, is it? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 01:00
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I would generally prefer for youtube links to include a brief summary of what the video is and says in addition to the "please try to add a little cogent commentary" requirement, which you admittedly passed in this case. It's unreasonable to expect people to watch a video to have any idea what you're talking about. Sorry, forgot they weren't embedded in the page. A road apple of a forum.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:02
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CommieGIR posted:They voted for Annexation AFTER Russia had already annexed them. This is straight up post hoc validation. Also: Are you going to vote against the people who just rolled armored trucks into your country to overthrow them? Why should we care about Putin or Russia if the US has no legitimate role or interest in the region other than Ukraine being a lucrative market for arms sales and international development loans? Do you think US involvement is keeping Russia out? If so, how?
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Feb 17, 2022 01:03
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Why should we care about Putin or Russia if the US has no legitimate role or interest in the region other than Ukraine being a lucrative market for arms sales and international development loans? Do you think US involvement is keeping Russia out? If so, how? Ukraine is an independent country who, shockingly, doesn't want to be invaded by Putin or annexed. Strange that you are making this about the US rather than the actions of Russia using threats of military force against its immediate neighbor.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:05
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Why should we care about Putin or Russia if the US has no legitimate role or interest in the region other than Ukraine being a lucrative market for arms sales and international development loans? That's a good question, why even discuss this? Very few people here will be personally affected if Putin invades Ukraine, maybe it's weird to be concerned about the welfare of people thousands of miles away
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Feb 17, 2022 01:08
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CommieGIR posted:Ukraine is an independent country who, shockingly, doesn't want to be invaded by Putin or annexed. Strange that you are making this about the US rather than the actions of Russia using threats of military force against its immediate neighbor. "The US should not get involved" is a valid argument on its own merits and you should address that rather than the argument you imagine to be in the poster's head.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:09
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CommieGIR posted:Ukraine is an independent country who, shockingly, doesn't want to be invaded by Putin or annexed. Strange that you are making this about the US rather than the actions of Russia using threats of military force against its immediate neighbor. The US is using this as a geopolitical wedge and escalating the situation past the own stated desires of the Ukrainian government. The US's role is more than germane, they're the prime mover in this dustup in their broken promise to end NATO and their support (financial, diplomatic, and logistic) color revolutions installing pro-NATO governments all along Russia's border. Why should Russia tolerate US meddling in countries so close by, encircling the country with hostile governments that took power in violent coups funded by the US? Bathtub Cheese fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 01:11
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Because Putin bad
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Feb 17, 2022 01:12
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Dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but the market is having a bad time with all beating war drums https://twitter.com/SalehaMohsin/status/1493340579467509765
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Feb 17, 2022 01:15
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Conspiratiorist posted:"The US should not get involved" is a valid argument on its own merits and you should address that rather than the argument you imagine to be in the poster's head. We're not involved. The poster is specifically, for some odd reason, bringing the US up. Because arms shipments at the request of Ukraine? In the face of a possible invasion? Somehow this is a neocolonialism, versus Putin pretending Ukraine is not a country and should be a Russian satellite state. Which is actual colonialism. Bathtub Cheese posted:The US is using this as a geopolitical wedge and escalating the situation past the own stated desires of the Ukrainian government. The US's role is more than germane, they're the prime mover in this dustup in their broken promise to end NATO and color revolutions installing pro-NATO governments all along Russia's border. Why should Russia tolerate US meddling in countries so close by, encircling the country with hostile governments that took power in violent coups funded by the US? What is the stated goals of the Ukrainian government? Willing to bet one of them is "Not be invaded by Putin because he feels his neighbor, an independant state, should be under his control." Bathtub Cheese posted:The US is using this as a geopolitical wedge and escalating the situation past the own stated desires of the Ukrainian government. The US's role is more than germane, they're the prime mover in this dustup in their broken promise to end NATO and color revolutions installing pro-NATO governments all along Russia's border. Why should Russia tolerate US meddling in countries so close by, encircling the country with hostile governments that took power in violent coups funded by the US? Uh, the "color revolutions" where actually just the fall of the Soviet Government. And for the most part we were actually opposed to adding a lot of Eastern Bloc countries to NATO. They went far, far out of their way to get NATO membership. So, let's be clear here: you are arguing that Putin is an innocent actor being manipulated by NATO and the US and that's why he's gotta steadily annex and overthrow neighboring governments with military force because...for some reason, seeking EU membership is colonialism but military overthrow and annexation of your neighbor is not? Which by the way, we've openly stated, multiple times, directly to Putin that Ukraine is not going to be added to NATO. And even the EU is, at best, a couple years off. What sort of threat is Ukraine presenting that Putin needs to stationed multiple divisions, easily 100,000+ men, on his neighbors border? At this point you are just saying Putin is an easily manipulated idiot who cannot resist responding with military force to his neighbors. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 01:15
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slave to my cravings posted:Because Putin bad I'm just gonna issue a general reminder that white noise posting, repeating catchphrases, etc is discouraged. You are welcome to make any argument you like in D&D (as long as you are willing to support it) but we would like discussion to be more substantive.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:16
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CommieGIR posted:Uh, the "color revolutions" where actually just the fall of the Soviet Government. And for the most part we were actually opposed to adding a lot of Eastern Bloc countries to NATO. They went far, far out of their way to get NATO membership. I think he's referring to the coup in 2014, not the collapse of the USSR.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:18
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Charliegrs posted:This speaks more to the west/east divide in the EU. Eastern EU countries tend to be more homophobic, mysognystic, and authoritarian. So naturally they align more with Russia and American conservatives. Crosby B. Alfred posted:Europe or the EU is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more friendly towards minority and LGBTQs than Russia. Granted, not perfect. It's quite telling that Ukraine gets better scores in surveys for LGBT-friendly policies and legislation than Poland. But they are still miles better than Russia, where any kind of activism for equal rights can and will be taken as propaganda to minors and you end in court. In Ukraine Pride marches are possible, thanks to brave people who know their rights and are not taken back by threats. 
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Feb 17, 2022 01:18
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CommieGIR posted:We're not involved. The poster is specifically, for some odd reason, bringing the US up. Because arms shipments at the request of Ukraine? In the face of a possible invasion? I'd say promising to help rebuild their economy from the ongoing panic damage + the invasion if it does happen through predatory loaning is indeed neocolonialism.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:20
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I think he's referring to the coup in 2014, not the collapse of the USSR. Which was still a military invasion with marked Russian units. Which the 'vote to annex' didn't happen until afterwards in Crimea. And a vote held by a country notable for having what basically amounts to a president for life who jails most of his opposition. And violently murders the others. In other countries. Conspiratiorist posted:I'd say promising to help rebuild their economy from the ongoing panic damage + the invasion if it does happen through predatory loaning is indeed neocolonialism. Agreed, but invading your neighbors to get your way is also a colonialism. And again, the US is not the one actively threatening direct military force. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 01:21
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Conspiratiorist posted:"The US should not get involved" is a valid argument on its own merits and you should address that rather than the argument you imagine to be in the poster's head. The claim is that the US has no "legitimate role or interest in the region." What are the bounds of a legitimate role or interest? Are "legitimate interests" a case of adjacency? What's the arguments for this claim? Off the top of my head there are two very large examples of events isolated to Eastern Europe eventually involving the United States in very impactful ways. Russia has holidays for both of them.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:22
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Why should Russia tolerate US meddling in countries so close by, encircling the country with hostile governments that took power in violent coups funded by the US? Ukraine has a democratically elected government. Russia is 100% in the wrong if it decided to take it over as it would feel better if Ukraine just did exactly what Russia wants it to do.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:23
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Russia got the US involved by listing demands of NATO and then acting dismissively of European leaders because they do not represent the largest NATO power and so can't speak for NATO. Which is to say Russia made it very clear they want to negotiate but only with the US. Beyond that, while a war in Ukraine will have minimal effect on the US it will affect US European allies quite a lot which is enough reason in itself to care. It shows your allies you are invested in them and they can count on you. Declaring you don't give a poo poo because it doesn't affect you personally is terrible diplomacy.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:24
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Nenonen posted:It's quite telling that Ukraine gets better scores in surveys for LGBT-friendly policies and legislation than Poland. But they are still miles better than Russia, where any kind of activism for equal rights can and will be taken as propaganda to minors and you end in court. In Ukraine Pride marches are possible, thanks to brave people who know their rights and are not taken back by threats. LGBT protections are mostly just weaponized idpol at this point and entirely unrepresentative of how a country actually governs Israel comes to mind here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 17, 2022 01:27
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CommieGIR posted:Which was still a military invasion with marked Russian units. Which the 'vote to annex' didn't happen until afterwards in Crimea. And a vote held by a country notable for having what basically amounts to a president for life who jails most of his opposition. And violently murders the others. In other countries.. Are we still talking about Ukraine? I have no knowledge of Russians invading Ukraine att. In fact, the democratically elected government that was ousted was trying to establish closer ties with Russia, why would they try to get rid of them? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 17, 2022 01:28
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"The" Ukraine is incorrect because it implies there is only one Ukraine in existence, but according to Everett's Many Worlds theory there's an infinite number of Ukraines throughout space-time Therefore the correct toponym is "A" Ukraine
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Feb 17, 2022 01:37
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Mr. Putin can have half an Ukraine, as a treat. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 17, 2022 01:39
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https://sledcom.ru/news/item/1656580?fbclid=IwAR1iWVW40g9V6z_ynIWRGjhYffpeWRcHYVy0ZwLBOLdVEmmnVfIwE47wWZc Russian Investigative Committee opening an investigation into the mass graves in Donbas.
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Feb 17, 2022 01:48
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Now that some hawks are starting to finally acknowledge that this war isn't actually going to happen we can think about how decades from now all the guns, positive press, and training we gave the brave Mujahideen warriors of the Azov Battalion will have no long term negative effects for either the politics or people of Ukraine or the surrounding regions and will never blow back. Thankfully there's no precedent I can think of that might hint about the outcome. Also I wonder what the US alt-righters think about Azov battalion because Russia's reactionary anti gay stuff, footsie with white nationalism and Wagner Group used to get them all hot and bothered and now they're the jewish controlled opposition or something against the brave Azov volunteers that are willing to be even more on the nose than ever like the Wagner Group dude or whatever. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Feb 17, 2022 |
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Feb 17, 2022 01:52
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Now that some hawks are starting to finally acknowledge that this war isn't actually going to happen we can think about how decades from now all the guns, positive press, and training we gave the brave Mujahideen warriors of the Azov Battalion will have no long term negative effects for either the politics or people of Ukraine or the surrounding regions and will never blow back. Thankfully there's no precedent I can think of that might hint about the outcome. The war in the east started by Russia might be the precedent you're looking for. You don't have to make people guess.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:01
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Conspiratiorist posted:https://sledcom.ru/news/item/1656580?fbclid=IwAR1iWVW40g9V6z_ynIWRGjhYffpeWRcHYVy0ZwLBOLdVEmmnVfIwE47wWZc "Oh man, all these mass graves in a warzone that we helped create. Surely this is the justification we need to continue the invasion of Donbass and we just happened to find these recently rather than the past 8 years we've been in Donbass". Also love that you are linking us to a Russian Government Investigation Department.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:06
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Shes Not Impressed posted:The war in the east started by Russia might be the precedent you're looking for. You don't have to make people guess. Are you trying to reference Crimea, Chechnya, or Georgia? I mean I think I made it pretty obvious that I was referencing Afghanistan in the 80's but I didn't think I needed to spell the joke out that much.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:06
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Now that some hawks are starting to finally acknowledge that this war isn't actually going to happen we can think about how decades from now all the guns, positive press, and training we gave the brave Mujahideen warriors of the Azov Battalion will have no long term negative effects for either the politics or people of Ukraine or the surrounding regions and will never blow back. Thankfully there's no precedent I can think of that might hint about the outcome. Yes, the current government in Ukraine is very similar to the that of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, just as oppressive, just as lacking in popular support, and just as likely to collapse and form a power vacuum once the occupying Soviet army leaves.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:07
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You gotta hand it to these Russians they sure know how to hate the gays Man I love these EE takes (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 17, 2022 02:09
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CMYK BLYAT! posted:Yes, the current government in Ukraine is very similar to the that of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, just as oppressive, just as lacking in popular support, and just as likely to collapse and form a power vacuum once the occupying Soviet army leaves. Oh dang, well I guess then there can be no negative outcomes from supporting the most insane bloodthirsty reactionary faction in an unstable country to own the Russians because the analogy isn't perfectly exact.
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Feb 17, 2022 02:09
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