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selec posted:Forgiveness and redemption are not stupid beliefs. Sorry, I meant to say the guy who tried to kill him. And, sure, forgiveness and redemption aren't stupid beliefs. But it's stupid to condemn the guy for not really being willing to forgive the guy who tried to kill him two days before.
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Feb 18, 2022 00:06
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Bishyaler posted:You can't support BLM's goals while vocally supporting institutions which are used to cage black bodies, systems like bail, jailing the mentally ill, and the prison complex. Maybe Greenberg sees a distinction, I don't. Who’s gonna stop me?
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Feb 18, 2022 00:07
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Mellow Seas posted:If he had been killed, would it change your opinion about how Quintez Brown should be treated? If he was using a laser gun would that change your opinion? Please stick to the specific consensual reality we’re in, we’ve got more than enough grist for the mill without coming up with hypotheticals.
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Feb 18, 2022 00:09
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selec posted:If he was using a laser gun would that change your opinion? Please stick to the specific consensual reality we’re in, we’ve got more than enough grist for the mill without coming up with hypotheticals. Yeah, that's just it: the specific reality we're taking about is an attempted political assassination, resulting in home release and unavoidably what could be the worst look for BLM since its onset as a movement.
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Feb 18, 2022 00:17
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Kavros posted:Yeah, that's just it: the specific reality we're taking about is an attempted political assassination, resulting in home release and unavoidably what could be the worst look for BLM since its onset as a movement. People who opposed BLM before this called them a terrorist organization. Not much will change, IMO, because ultimately it’s not a very leggy story. No injuries even. Local BLM chapters are all you should pay any attention to anyway. The national org is a co-opted siphon.
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Feb 18, 2022 00:20
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's a failing of the court if he's out on bail and you think that's wrong. BLM did nothing but legally pay bail for someone who had a bail. That's a pretty reasonable take and I think it's persuaded me. Judge bad but BLM acted according to their (good!) guidelines.
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Feb 18, 2022 00:27
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selec posted:People who opposed BLM before this called them a terrorist organization. Not much will change, IMO, because ultimately it’s not a very leggy story. No injuries even. Holy poo poo are your political instincts worse than the Clinton's. This is not a very leggy story because noone was injured? An attempted political assassination managed to only wing the target so hey, no harm, no foul, what's everyone so upset about? THAT'S your argument? Seriously?
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Feb 18, 2022 00:28
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Oracle posted:Holy poo poo are your political instincts worse than the Clinton's. This is not a very leggy story because noone was injured? An attempted political assassination managed to only wing the target so hey, no harm, no foul, what's everyone so upset about? It’s not an argument, just my opinion. It might be wrong, but being wrong on the internet rarely proves fatal.
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Feb 18, 2022 00:35
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's a failing of the court if he's out on bail and you think that's wrong. BLM did nothing but legally pay bail for someone who had a bail. This is ridiculous. If it's a failing off the court to give him bail then it's a failing of BLM to pay the bail. "No one made it illegal to do this" does not make it right to do this. It was a completely voluntary act that they had to go out of their way to do. Is it righteous for judges to give high cash bail to nonviolent drug offenders when they have the option not to just because it was a failure of the state legislature to give them the option?
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Feb 18, 2022 00:40
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's a failing of the court if he's out on bail and you think that's wrong. BLM did nothing but legally pay bail for someone who had a bail. hmm, very good point. excellent way to reframe the issue though i'm not sure if the takeaway of the general public will be "our current legal system has the tacit understanding that certain classes of people are not supposed to be able to make their bail, we should abolish pretrial detention" or "we need to take choice out of the hands of the court and lock 'em all up"
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Feb 18, 2022 00:40
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New Texas DA indicts 19 Police Officers for actions during George Floyd protestsquote:Jose Garza, the district attorney for Travis County, which includes Austin, spoke to journalists Thursday afternoon about the grand jury investigation but gave no specifics about it, including how many officers are facing charges, and for what crimes.  quote:Ken Cassidy, the president of the Austin Police Association, said that “numerous officers” have been indicted but that he was not sure of the total number facing charges. quote:On Thursday, the Combined Law Enforcement Associations of Texas and Austin Police Association called on Travis County District Attorney José Garza to cease any announcements regarding any prosecuted cases involving Austin Police Department officers until after the Democratic primary and runoffs. https://twitter.com/AP/status/1494454478313082882
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Feb 18, 2022 00:41
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Jarmak posted:This is ridiculous. If it's a failing off the court to give him bail then it's a failing of BLM to pay the bail. Let me answer your hypothetical of an entirely different situation with another hypothetical, if the rule book doesn't say anything about a dog not playing basketball is it right for him to play? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 18, 2022 01:15
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selec posted:If he was using a laser gun would that change your opinion? Please stick to the specific consensual reality we’re in, we’ve got more than enough grist for the mill without coming up with hypotheticals. I thought your philosophy was that the severity of the crime was irrelevant to whether somebody should be held in jail. I don't think the disagreement is over how severe of a crime attempted murder is. Given that you have suggested that incarceration is inappropriate for more or less any crime, I don't think you should object to people using hypotheticals that involve murder. - - - - - - I just wanted to add that I can absolutely imagine scenarios where what the bail fund did was a good thing. For example, if Greenberg is actually some major league rear end in a top hat, and Brown is actually under close supervision with a good community support system, and not in a position to hurt himself or others, it could be a good thing that they bailed him out, even if it was just to spite some rear end in a top hat! I don't know the situation well enough to say! I just don't understand how anybody could possibly find fault with Greenberg disliking the situation. He has legitimate reason to fear for his life. This isn't John Hinckley. This happened this week. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Feb 18, 2022 |
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Feb 18, 2022 01:20
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Gumball Gumption posted:Let me answer your hypothetical of an entirely different situation with another hypothetical, if the rule book doesn't say anything about a dog not playing basketball is it right for him to play? If somebody released by the bail fund went on to hurt someone, would you consider them at all responsible for that happening? If you made that decision would you feel at all responsible?
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Feb 18, 2022 01:21
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Gumball Gumption posted:Let me answer your hypothetical of an entirely different situation with another hypothetical, if the rule book doesn't say anything about a dog not playing basketball is it right for him to play? How about instead you address my actual argument which I made alongside an entirely relevant hypothetical meant to illustrate it.
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Feb 18, 2022 01:40
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Jizz Festival posted:If somebody released by the bail fund went on to hurt someone, would you consider them at all responsible for that happening? If you made that decision would you feel at all responsible? Jarmak posted:How about instead you address my actual argument which I made alongside an entirely relevant hypothetical meant to illustrate it. You're both missing it and your hypothetical is an entirely different situation. The court sets the bail. If you do not like that he is out on bail this is the court's fault as they are the institution who manages bail. It's not about morality or how it makes you feel, it's that the court sets the bail so if you do not like the fact that someone is out on bail your problem is with the court, not the people who payed bail as is their legal right. Kind of like how it's not the dogs fault he's playing basketball, the rules say he can. It's not the refs fault, the rules say the dog can play. But it is the fault of the person who writes those rules. Technically judges are more like refs but it's not a perfect 1:1.
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Feb 18, 2022 01:51
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lol at calling an attempt on someone's life a "personal inconvenience."
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Feb 18, 2022 01:57
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Gumball Gumption posted:You're both missing it and your hypothetical is an entirely different situation. The court sets the bail. If you do not like that he is out on bail this is the court's fault as they are the institution who manages bail. It's not about morality or how it makes you feel, it's that the court sets the bail so if you do not like the fact that someone is out on bail your problem is with the court, not the people who payed bail as is their legal right. Hypothetical isn't different at all. Legislature sets whether drug offenders can be given cash bail. If you don't like the judge giving the guy with a gram of pot $1m bail instead of ror then this is the legislature's fault for allowing it. Judge did nothing wrong. I'm sure legal=moral is an actual good faith argument you sincerely believe and consistently apply. If the supreme court kills Roe I expect you'll be in here defending all the new abortion bans are moral and good because the real problem is the court right? I'm not sure what idiot cabal met and decided that suddenly the existence of a hypothetical in an argument can be used as a thought terminating cliche, but pointing out the utterly insane implications of your logic by applying to different situation is a completely valid form of argument. Edit: I mean you're arguing that if a judge says it's okay then anyone else is completely free from any sort of moral responsibility for their actions. Are you loving serious? Jarmak fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Feb 18, 2022 |
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Feb 18, 2022 02:09
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selec posted:Forgiveness and redemption are not stupid beliefs. the bullet grazed his clothing. He was a centimeter away from a hospital or a morgue and Brown walked in there with intent to kill. Greenberg is not a hypocrite on this issue because number one he's very consistently been the Eric Adams-type Public Safety candidate and number two. HE ALMOST GOT MURDERED AND EXPECTING THIS DUDE TO JUST WALK OFF ALMOST DYING IN 48 HOURS IS ABSOLUTELY INSANE. Forgiveness and redemption are something you work towards and earn. They're not something you hand out immediately without any evidence the dude even regrets what he did. GreyjoyBastard posted:That's a pretty reasonable take and I think it's persuaded me. Judge bad but BLM acted according to their (good!) guidelines. It wasn't up to the judge. The Kentucky Constitution makes it so that you have a right to be bailed out unless you're charged with a capital crime specifically which attempted murder does not fall under. Rep. Nemes (who loving sucks and is always filing bills that gently caress Louisville over) is now filing a constitutional amendment to get rid of that right so congratulations to the Louisville Bail Fund on not only shooting themselves in the foot politically but also shooting themselves in the foot in terms of making it harder to do their job. There was actually a bill in the general assembly to make these types of bail fund organizations illegal in Kentucky outright and this act just gave that bill an absurd amount of political cover. Louisville Bail Fund probably just high-roaded themselves out of existence. Mellow Seas posted:
actually no attempted murder doesn't become cool if someone's a jerk
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Feb 18, 2022 02:09
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Gumball Gumption posted:You're both missing it and your hypothetical is an entirely different situation. The court sets the bail. If you do not like that he is out on bail this is the court's fault as they are the institution who manages bail. It's not about morality or how it makes you feel, it's that the court sets the bail so if you do not like the fact that someone is out on bail your problem is with the court, not the people who payed bail as is their legal right. So you wouldn't feel responsible at all if you made that decision and someone got hurt? This isn't a "gotcha" I'm trying to get you to understand that most people will hold you responsible for that decision even if you point at the judge and say it's all his fault.
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Feb 18, 2022 02:15
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:the bullet grazed his clothing. He was a centimeter away from a hospital or a morgue and Brown walked in there with intent to kill. Greenberg is not a hypocrite on this issue because number one he's very consistently been the Eric Adams-type Public Safety candidate and number two. HE ALMOST GOT MURDERED AND EXPECTING THIS DUDE TO JUST WALK OFF ALMOST DYING IN 48 HOURS IS ABSOLUTELY INSANE. This is a lot of excuse-making for the people actually making the laws, blaming activists for being activists. Should they not have set up a bail fund? Or just let the feelings of white liberals determine who the funds go to? Maybe just dial it back to white conservatives deciding who the bail fund bails out, because we don’t want to do anything to upset anyone or the status quo. America is a shithole that is only getting worse, and blaming the people fighting for some kind of liberation for the actions of reactionaries is just the intellectual version of the fetal position. Fighting injustice does not look like compliance, no matter how hard that is for some folks to take.
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Feb 18, 2022 02:15
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Also I'm from Louisville. Quintez was a very well-known local activist who almost every black leader in this city knew personally. When he went missing last summer, it was covered extensively in the local media and my socials were awash in Missing Posters. The way its being perceived here, in the actual community this occurred in and that this fund is supposed to help, is that the bail fund isn't just using the money to let out an attempted murderer vs 12 drug dealers its that they're using the money to help out their personal friend over everyone else. This is completely radioactive here. How much? Charles loving Booker (also a friend of Quintez) is using it to attack cash bail from the opposite side where Quintez should have remained in custody but didn't because of his access to money. quote:“Our city is in a complete state of shock in the aftermath of the attempted murder of Craig Greenberg at his campaign office. We are all grieving and searching for answers. I continue to pray for Craig, his family, and staff, with a heartfelt call for our entire community to wrap arms of love around them.” Booker said. selec posted:This is a lot of excuse-making for the people actually making the laws, blaming activists for being activists. they shouldn't have used the bail fund to immediately bail out their personal friend. BIG FLUFFY DOG fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Feb 18, 2022 |
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Feb 18, 2022 02:22
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Mellow Seas posted:I thought your philosophy was that the severity of the crime was irrelevant to whether somebody should be held in jail. I don't think the disagreement is over how severe of a crime attempted murder is. Given that you have suggested that incarceration is inappropriate for more or less any crime, I don't think you should object to people using hypotheticals that involve murder. Jesus christ, laws aren't based on your personal value judgments of the victim, and that's a good thing. This sort of moral relativism is pretty sickening, tbh. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 18, 2022 02:24
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Also I'm from Louisville. Quintez was a very well-known local activist who almost every black leader in this city knew personally. When he went missing last summer, it was covered extensively in the local media and my socials were awash in Missing Posters. The way its being perceived here, in the actual community this occurred in and that this fund is supposed to help, is that the bail fund isn't just using the money to let out an attempted murderer vs 12 drug dealers its that they're using the money to help out their personal friend over everyone else. Do we have anything to go on besides your say-so about how the community perceived this? But regardless: still blaming activists for the potential fallout that would come from reactionaries. Getting mad at the people with the least amount of power in the scenario, people running a shoestring liberation bandaid, which is what bail funds are, in the face of a prison state like the US. I cannot fathom being mad at those people more than the folks who keep and maintain that prison state, our country, the shithole that it is.
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Feb 18, 2022 02:26
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selec posted:This is a lot of excuse-making for the people actually making the laws, blaming activists for being activists. I'm going to go with no, they should not have set up a bail fund for attempted assassins. If the status quo that you're fighting against is "you go to jail for attempting to kill me" then spare me the rhetoric about my insufficient devotion to your cause because your cause sucks.
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Feb 18, 2022 02:32
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Jarmak posted:I'm going to go with no, they should not have set up a bail fund for attempted assassins. If the status quo that you're fighting against is "you go to jail for attempting to kill me" then spare me the rhetoric about my insufficient devotion to your cause because your cause sucks. Fighting for civil rights means sometimes supporting people who suck, or who need more care than the average Joe. I mean, I helped pay bail for protesters in my state that were charged with violent felonies, which turned out to be completely ginned-up charges. If people are hesitant to support civil rights causes full throatedly when the rights are for people they don’t like, they’re really just saying they want small tweaks to a regressive social order, IMO. I think it’s fair to say our visions for what a liberation of this country would look like are really, really different.
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Feb 18, 2022 02:38
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California is suing Tesla over rampant racism CW: Racism: quote:Tesla segregated Black workers into separate areas that its employees referred to as “porch monkey stations,” “the dark side,” “the slave ship” and “the plantation,” the lawsuit alleges.  Also I find it hard to believe a company run by Elon Musk, a white man from South Africa, might be raci-- 
Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Feb 18, 2022 |
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Feb 18, 2022 03:45
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selec posted:Fighting for civil rights means sometimes supporting people who suck, or who need more care than the average Joe. Exactly. Prison abolition doesn't mean "prison abolition, but only for some people". I believe that it's better for 100 criminals to go free than a single innocent person to be locked up, and hoo boy do we lock up a lot of innocent people right now.
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Feb 18, 2022 05:12
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Jaxyon posted:California is suing Tesla over rampant racism
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Feb 18, 2022 05:23
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FlamingLiberal posted:A judge in New York has ordered Trump, Ivanka, and Don Jr to be deposed in an ongoing civil suit in NY against Trump’s company. This is expected to be appealed. I await my eventual disappointment. Somehow he'll weasel his way out of this.
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Feb 18, 2022 05:27
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I'm extremely tired of hearing about all these things that might be consequential to trump because they only serve as reminders of what privilege his class and tribe wields to demonstrate the disparity in who justice comes for and on what timetables. All that matters is that he should have been in prison a long time ago but no part of our legal system that disappeared people into rikers island on bogus drug charges just because a cop felt like it shows any interest or capacity to hold people like trump accountable before they're dead I never want to hear "a big blow for donald trump today" if it's not paired with actual lived consequences like jail time or revocation of substantial amounts of his lavish lifestyle
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Feb 18, 2022 05:55
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VideoGameVet posted:I await my eventual disappointment. Eric pled the fifth over 500 times in a deposition from the same prosecutors on the same case. Expect Ivanka, Junior, and Donnie to do the same and the legal system to just shrug and go "I guess we can't prosecute them because they didn't say anything" like the January 6th Commission did with all the stooges who also pled the fifth or just didn't show up. Then again Alex Jones tried this level of bullshit with the Sandy Hook defamation case it absolutely backfired on him catastrophically. But Jones is just some moderately rich crank who hocks pills filled with sawdust, he's not actually "powerful" rich like Trump is, so we'll see if that cushion of inertia that Trump rides around on and gets away from everything scot free on is still as frictionless as it was a year and a half ago.
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Feb 18, 2022 07:17
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's a failing of the court if he's out on bail and you think that's wrong. BLM did nothing but legally pay bail for someone who had a bail. For real, if he's a danger to others the judge should have refused bail, that's the judge's job. Granting someone bail and then getting mad he was bailed out is dumb af. Impeach the judge if he hosed up that bad, if he didn't gently caress up then what's the problem.
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Feb 18, 2022 07:18
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VitalSigns posted:For real, if he's a danger to others the judge should have refused bail, that's the judge's job. I'd guess that there's no way he'd have bail granted if it was a Republican he shot at. Hell, he'd never have made it to jail.
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Feb 18, 2022 07:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I'd guess that there's no way he'd have bail granted if it was a Republican he shot at. Hell, he'd never have made it to jail. VitalSigns posted:For real, if he's a danger to others the judge should have refused bail, that's the judge's job. Bail in Kentucky is currently a constitutional right for any crime that doesn’t carry the death penalty (so murder but not attempted). Its looking like that’s going to change as a direct result of this.
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Feb 18, 2022 07:42
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Bail in Kentucky is currently a constitutional right for any crime that doesn’t carry the death penalty (so murder but not attempted). Its looking like that’s going to change as a direct result of this. According to a Kentucky district court judge, the typical way judges handle a dangerous defendant in that case is setting bail at $1,000,000 so I'd still question why the judge didn't do that if the accused is really so dangerous. So what are we trying to accomplish here. Is the objection here that the guy is going to do it again, because if so the bail was too low and the judge hosed up. Or is he probably not going to do it again, we're just mad that someone we don't like got bailed out and we want some kind of two-tiered bail system where the court can find you aren't a danger but you can't exercise your right to bail anyway if you're unpopular or the mob decided you're guilty etc
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Feb 18, 2022 07:56
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Fister Roboto posted:Exactly. Prison abolition doesn't mean "prison abolition, but only for some people". I believe that it's better for 100 criminals to go free than a single innocent person to be locked up, and hoo boy do we lock up a lot of innocent people right now. Just out of curiosity, because I haven't looked into prison abolition, what do you propose we do with people who attempt to murder others?
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Feb 18, 2022 08:15
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Willa Rogers posted:Jesus christ, laws aren't based on your personal value judgments of the victim, and that's a good thing. SICKENING! Get off your high horse. I didn't see any of our champions of liberty in here expressing tearful remorse that Jeffrey Epstein was incarcerated. I don't see them saying Donald Trump deserves to have his beautiful locks flowing freely in the breeze; in fact I see them criticizing Democrats for "allowing" his continued freedom. I'm not the only one engaging in "moral relativism" in this conversation.Individual circumstances exist whether you acknowledge it or not. For all we know, Brown might have had his life directly threatened by COs or other inmates and had to be removed from custody. I don't think the bail fund should've been in a position to get him out of jail, but they were. When I say it might be "good" that they bailed him out, I mean that this might, through some arrangement of circumstances, result in the best outcomes. Now, I guess that's true of almost every decision anybody makes, so maybe it is just not an interesting observation. And it certainly doesn't mean that Brown "should have been" released. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Feb 18, 2022 |
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Feb 18, 2022 13:54
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Jaxyon posted:California is suing Tesla over rampant racism No one could have guessed that a man who got his start based off his family’s apartheid era blood gem mining fortune could be this rabidly racist.
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Feb 18, 2022 14:35
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personally, ive never met a nice south african
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