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indigi posted:the Americans had time to organize execute and win a strike in the middle of loading the ship I don’t wanna hear it, German workers are garbage case closed 👨⚖️
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Feb 18, 2022 17:46
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:Eh, this very much looks like an old person yelling at clouds. The m16 and m4 is actually very good, and there's a reason it's incredibly popular around the world. Most of the early issues were exaggerated, largely because the military very much wanted to keep using the m14 as the service rifle. The Leopard 2 and the Challenger are pretty old tanks at this point, while Japan and Korea moved on to autoloaders in their newer models. I would assume Turkey as well (also the Armada of course). It just makes more sense to take the space for a loader and the room he has to work with and make a smaller/better-armored tank (or an unmanned turret.) The smaller size of a tank without an autoloader also means it isn't going to be as likely to get hit in the first place and they can be more judicious in its protection. Also, the ammo carousel in the T-72/80/90 is at the bottom of the tank and is not exactly easy to hit, it isn't impossible (and it happens), but it can also be up-armored as well. Moreover tanks are miserable places to be in the first place, and the Abrams obviously is more open because a loader needs access...but isn't exactly a holiday resort inside. The human loader in the Abrams is a drawback and honestly again I think would have come out in a peer-to-peer conflict as US logistics would be stretched past the breaking point. It is probably fine in situations where your enemy is so hopelessly mismatched it doesn't matter (Iraq 1/2) but I don't think it would fare versus any modern military. Also, the Bradley had a lot of faults and was taken out of service early. Admittedly, some of it was that US needs changed, but at the same time there are significant drawbacks to it compared to much cheaper alternatives. I honestly don't think it would have also fared well in a peer-to-peer conflict since the Soviets/Russians/Chinese have so many system to knock one out very cheaply. It was an expensive boondoggle even if the M113 sucked. Pentagon Wars was a dramatic production, but at the same time, I think it is difficult to deny there wasn't a grain of truth to it as well as other Pentagon projects of recent times. APS have their uses, but they are far from full proof. Part of it is also that Trophy was being positioned for urban warfare which is generally a situation where APS systems don't shine. The Russians have theirs but in Syria at least they were often turned off because so much of it depended on urban combat. (That said, there was some open field combat as well and they probably will be more useful then.) To be fair, I think there is much worse equipment out there but I think the Abrams especially is overrated and largely past its prime.
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Feb 18, 2022 17:47
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tank crews have to spend days at a time in their vehicle which can drive uninterrupted for one and one quarter hours between necessary maintenance
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Feb 18, 2022 17:50
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Memes aside how did the Abrams fare in Iraq? Any good reading about it would be interesting. All I know is that 1. The Abrams is Invincible to RPG fire 2. It guzzles a lot more fuel than anything else.
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Feb 18, 2022 17:54
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do tanks have decent A/C
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Feb 18, 2022 17:55
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All the Abrams I worked with in Iraq did ok but aren't exactly useful in Baghdad, but they were good at sitting there looking spooky.
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Feb 18, 2022 17:59
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if anything this sells that the Russians are way better at this. tanks are always going to be killable, their job is to move fast enough that they can attack places that aren't prepared to fight tanks. the right amount of tank is just barely more than your enemy can deal with, everything else is a waste. just from the silhouette you can see two doctrines at play - one is move slowly, never too far from refuel or resupply, protect yourself from all sides at all times, never take risks, casualties are unsustainable, operating away from support is unthinkable. the other is move fast, stay low, and kill things. it's not a surprise, NATO were always resigned to losing a conventional war in Europe, but it's neat to see it lined up like that.
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Feb 18, 2022 17:59
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:APS makes sense for the Soviets and Russians because they were expecting to do big maneuvers on open terrain where they wouldn't need supporting infantry to move close with the tanks. Israel is operating on a different calculus where they're trying to achieve the impossible, which is have a perfectly invincible tank that will avoid all casualties AND act as an APC that can deliver soldiers to the front. There is no room for maneuver in a country as small as Israel & Palestine, and Gaza is just a big urban area. The Israelis are more motivated by their preoccupation with eugenic health than anything sensible. It’s this, and money being no object. Arena was also developed in the context of Afghanistan where the flood of US arms lead to snapshots at AFVs. Coupled with ERA it also allowed the Soviets to keep their older inventory of T-55s and T-62s as well as the rest of Warsaw Pact viable, where the cost of 1:1 replacement with T-72, T-64, T-80 would be prohibitive. Mostly, you’re right. Merkava was not developed to be a good AFV. It was developed with the idea that no Jewish soldier can ever be lost, ever. It’s such a weird loving idea, but all of the poo poo they throw onto it makes it worse for idk a last stand as the Egyptians break out across the canal into the Sinai, but that’s not what it’s for. It’s for incursions into Gaza and Lebanon. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 18:15 on Feb 18, 2022 |
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Feb 18, 2022 18:10
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indigi posted:do tanks have decent A/C I can’t speak to American stuff, but often the A/C is only to keep the sensors and computers cool. The US hosed this up so badly with the Stryker MGS (someone post about that please!) that they issued each crewman an intricate cooling vest developed by a furry for use under their gross mascot suits.
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Feb 18, 2022 18:14
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Lol those water vests don't do poo poo
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Feb 18, 2022 18:16
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As much as I’m bummed we retired ADATS and M109, everyone I spoke to said they were hellacious in the heat even with all hatches open.
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Feb 18, 2022 18:17
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So you are saying that AFV operators in the US wear furry undergarments as part of their combat gear?
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Feb 18, 2022 18:20
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Tankbuster posted:Memes aside how did the Abrams fare in Iraq? Any good reading about it would be interesting. All I know is that very few have been fully destroyed with killed crews, tho they aren't invincible to more modern RPGs also hundreds of the fuckin things kept breaking and getting wrecked and needing to be shipped back for repairs
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Feb 18, 2022 18:20
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Often Abbreviated posted:if anything this sells that the Russians are way better at this. tanks are always going to be killable, their job is to move fast enough that they can attack places that aren't prepared to fight tanks. the right amount of tank is just barely more than your enemy can deal with, everything else is a waste. The Russians have been designing like this for a while. The T-34 for example only had an engine good for a few thousand kilometers, because they figured that you don't need a tank that can run for 50,000 km if it's gonna get blown up before it can do a fifth of that.
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Feb 18, 2022 19:56
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America deserves worse than losing WW3 https://twitter.com/AlchemPunk/status/1494340165912784899
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Feb 18, 2022 19:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:there used to be a "Congressional A-10 Caucus" that always voted in lockstep to make sure the A-10 wasn't axed that's a pretty long discussion about how to bully brown people with no defenses
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Feb 19, 2022 03:29
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gradenko_2000 posted:it's hard to overstate how much containerization cost in terms of jobs and entire seaside communities that relied on those jobs, on top of how longshoremen's unions were some of the most active and large among worker movements in the West it also allowed the consumer goods manufacturers to go overseas A Buttery Pastry posted:I feel like there's a possibility that the people loading a ship might do it in a way that makes it harder for the people unloading it. And this possibly saving time for the ones loading. We need the stats for the opposite journey. breakbulk loading requires securing and lashing which is harder than unloading.
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Feb 19, 2022 03:32
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Tankbuster posted:So you are saying that AFV operators in the US wear furry undergarments as part of their combat gear? Yes They built the Stryker MGS without any A/C and crews were passing out and getting heat stroke. The Wheeled Cannon That Everyone Hates “But the MGS design crams a lot of equipment into a small space, and as a result it’s crowded for its three-person crew. The hatches are too small for crew members to quickly escape in the event of a fire. And the overstuffed MGS lacks air conditioning. In Iraq, the 150-degree heat forced the Army to quickly outfit gun-Stryker operators with special cooling vests.” The Army Is Ditching All of Its Stryker Mobile Gun Systems “The Army announced Wednesday that it is planning to divest all of its Stryker Mobile Gun Systems by the end of fiscal 2022. The service said in a news release it had decided the time has come to retire the M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System after a study showed it is obsolete, and its out-of-date cannon and automatic loader have systemic issues.” e: Relevant to the discussion above, “According to the release, the Stryker Mobile Gun System was the first Army system fielded with an autoloader, which was state-of-the-art at the time. But over the years, the service adds, the autoloader has become expensive to maintain.” ee: What I Wish I Knew as a MGS Commander “it is top-heavy and more susceptible to rollovers. Flat tires on this platform are common and can take anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour to replace. The MGS lacks a designated space to stow spare tires, requiring another vehicle for supply.” Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 04:43 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 04:19
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BMP-3M: 18.7 tonnes (less than stryker) Has air-conditioning? Yes
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Feb 19, 2022 07:20
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I also wonder about the JATV (the replacement for the Humvee), it make sense in the context of Iraq, uparmored Humvees and MRAPs weren’t handling it, so they developed a new vehicle around the concept. However, again, this thing is huge for what is suppose to be a light utility vehicle and it seems ridiculous overkill for base defense.
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Feb 19, 2022 11:15
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There's not many weapons systems you can tell are a bad idea just from looking at them, but the M1128 is so obviously bad on first sight. We've already got more tanks than the military wants, what's the point of putting a 105mm cannon on top of a vehicle that wasn't designed for it?
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Feb 19, 2022 11:25
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Ardennes posted:I also wonder about the JATV (the replacement for the Humvee), it make sense in the context of Iraq, uparmored Humvees and MRAPs weren’t handling it, so they developed a new vehicle around the concept. So, its more boondoggles from the grift industrial complex
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Feb 19, 2022 11:30
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Palladium posted:So, its more boondoggles from the grift industrial complex Admittedly, I could see that thing being fine for patrols in Syria, but it is just an awkward fit otherwise (from what I have seen). Pener Kropoopkin posted:There's not many weapons systems you can tell are a bad idea just from looking at them, but the M1128 is so obviously bad on first sight. We've already got more tanks than the military wants, what's the point of putting a 105mm cannon on top of a vehicle that wasn't designed for it? I could see the thinking going on in that they wanted something similar to the capabilities of VDV equipment, but had to use the Stryker platform to “do it all” and it ended up a mess. The BMD-4 is more practical and the Sprut has the gun from a T-72 which would make mincemeat of it. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 12:06 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 11:57
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the bmd4 is one of the most hilariously armed things I've ever seen. It's like someone gave me crayons as a kid and told me to go nuts. It's kinda great. I have no clue if it is
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Feb 19, 2022 12:50
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Milo and POTUS posted:the bmd4 is one of the most hilariously armed things I've ever seen. It's like someone gave me crayons as a kid and told me to go nuts. It's kinda great. I have no clue if it is and its still only 14 tons
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Feb 19, 2022 13:42
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Ardennes posted:Admittedly, I could see that thing being fine for patrols in Syria, but it is just an awkward fit otherwise (from what I have seen). It’s hard to remember, but the Humvee is a replacement for the jeep. In other militaries you can see that the Iltis and G Wagon are light vehicles, suited for this kind of work and basically modern, more capable jeeps. However the entire decision making process here for the US is minimizing casualties and bad press during the GWOT, so yeah they have a huge armoured vehicle just to drive around rear areas. It’s another example of politics and counter insurgency breaking the brains of military brass. Pener Kropoopkin posted:There's not many weapons systems you can tell are a bad idea just from looking at them, but the M1128 is so obviously bad on first sight. We've already got more tanks than the military wants, what's the point of putting a 105mm cannon on top of a vehicle that wasn't designed for it? If they had been upfront about it just being light gun support, there’s precedent:     
Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 14:23 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 14:07
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Ardennes posted:I could see the thinking going on in that they wanted something similar to the capabilities of VDV equipment, but had to use the Stryker platform to “do it all” and it ended up a mess. The BMD-4 is more practical and the Sprut has the gun from a T-72 which would make mincemeat of it. They're also designed to accomodate turreted guns, which are more in line with their center of gravity. They didn't strap the whole weapons system onto a top rear mount.  This is what we're talking about, everybody.
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Feb 19, 2022 14:09
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I saw an MGS shoot in combat once, which was pretty cool
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Feb 19, 2022 14:16
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Frosted Flake posted:It’s hard to remember, but the Humvee is a replacement for the jeep. In other militaries you can see that the Iltis and G Wagon are light vehicles, suited for this kind of work and basically modern, more capable jeeps. However the entire decision making process here for the US is minimizing casualties and bad press during the GWOT, so yeah they have a huge armoured vehicle just to drive around rear areas. It is also part of the “do it all” approach where you take a system that has some utility like the F-35 or the Stryker and go nuts with it because the supplier isn’t going to be happy with a limited contract. So is there use for a mine resistant patrol vehicle? Yeah…but it is a very awkward replacement for a Jeep or even a Humvee. It is quite a large vehicle (also doesn’t matter if it is an absolute fuel pig either.) Also, then the supplier often does a poor job because they already have a huge contract. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 14:56 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 14:25
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We scrapped all our RG’s and took the armour kits off the G Wagons when the war ended. There’s no reason you guys couldn’t have gone back to Humvees and ditched all that bloat.
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Feb 19, 2022 14:36
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repurpose Oshkosh MRAPs to the postal service. keepin' it in the family.
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Feb 19, 2022 21:00
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I was thinking of the Stryker MGS thing. Couldn’t America have just bought Wiesel 2’s?  Put those surplus 105mm recoilless rifles the US was giving to Syrian Rebels on it and there you go.  I mean, in Vietnam they basically had them on a go cart  Famously, the French put them on a Vespa  Alright, either of those delivers 105mm rounds, same as the Stryker MGS, doesn’t have a finicky autoloader, and costs less. Make me a General officer, please. They could have just put a recoilless rifle on the CROWS mount on the Stryker and had someone pop up to reload it or something. They went with the most complicated way possible to do what they wanted to do. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 23:25 on Feb 19, 2022 |
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Feb 19, 2022 23:19
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A lot of those platforms tend to not fair well when bullets and shrapnel come towards them and tend to sacrifice capability for economy. 105mm cannon is more versatile in the type of shells that can be used and it has better ballistics compared to its recoilless rifle counterpart. Basically it's wanting a light tank without telling people they want a light tank. Or armored car rather.
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Feb 20, 2022 00:58
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Haven’t they been trying to get a light tank since the Sheridan was retired? I think the MGS turret even came from one proposal, come to think of it.
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Feb 20, 2022 01:38
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M8 AGS was to be the new light tank until it canceled after the Cold War. MGS was the functional replacement and is slated to be retired at the end of 2022. There's a new program for a new light tank: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11859
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Feb 20, 2022 01:42
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also, anyone suggesting buying a new combat vehicle from another country without involving US defense contractors at all would probably be laughed out of the room the primary purpose of all US defense procurement is graft, the actual functionality of what you're buying is at best secondary
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Feb 20, 2022 01:46
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Looks like the AGS turret was already kicking around. I think they could have made MGS work if they treated it like a Gun Motor Carriage or those German halftracks, but any design that requires a furry cooling vest is a failure. e: Can’t the US licence-produce? Your 57mm AT gun was a QF 6 Pounder, M249 and M240 are FN Minimi and MAG, M9 is a Beretta etc. You can still get rich without procuring garbage, just pay the licensing fee and pocket the rest. Hell, the Stryker is just a worse LAV. You’re welcome 
Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 02:09 on Feb 20, 2022 |
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Feb 20, 2022 02:07
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Mister Bates posted:also, anyone suggesting buying a new combat vehicle from another country without involving US defense contractors at all would probably be laughed out of the room so you oppose funneling tons of public money into anti-public interests what are you, a traitor?
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Feb 20, 2022 02:13
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Frosted Flake posted:Looks like the AGS turret was already kicking around. I think they could have made MGS work if they treated it like a Gun Motor Carriage or those German halftracks, but any design that requires a furry cooling vest is a failure. German halftracks with those HE guns on them were the furry cooling vests of the second world war. Stugs were the functional underwear.
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Feb 20, 2022 03:13
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Ardennes posted:I also wonder about the JATV (the replacement for the Humvee), it make sense in the context of Iraq, uparmored Humvees and MRAPs weren’t handling it, so they developed a new vehicle around the concept. I looked up what this is, and apparently it can’t go faster than 8mph in reverse? that’s funny
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Feb 20, 2022 03:32
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