freebooter posted:

The notion that the American CDC staff based in Beijing (which, according to a quick google, were cut by Trump from 47 down to 17) would have made a pivotal difference when weighed up against, uh, the entire Chinese state health apparatus.

Charles 2 of Spain posted:

Definitely not a fan of giving the cops mask enforcement power, but I reckon a lot of people are going to start doing it regardless.

Discendo Vox posted:

That's one of several activities; there was, for example, a CDC monitoring center in Wuhan, iirc institute that had conspiracies about being the source of the virus, as well as a USAID-based monitoring initiative. There was a whole infrastructure put in place after SARS that got gutted during the Trump admin.

freebooter posted:

OK, but why would you assume that infrastructure was superior to whatever infrastructure the Chinese government itself has in place, in its own country, presumably much more extensive and sophisticated? (We aren't talking about the Congo here.) On top of that, why would you assume that whatever an American observation post might have noticed would have any influence or bearing on domestic Chinese policy? This is peak America-centric thinking.

Discendo Vox posted:

They weren't operating out of some shack next to China's research center; they cofunded the center and the US supplied a large portion of the staff and research funding.

Steen71 posted:

And if I had suggested this to people here pre-Covid, I'm pretty sure you would all have considered it equally ridiculous.

Discendo Vox posted:

That's one of several activities; there was, for example, a CDC monitoring center in Wuhan, iirc at the institute that had conspiracies about being the source of the virus, as well as a USAID-based monitoring initiative. There was a whole infrastructure put in place after SARS that got gutted during the Trump admin.

the holy poopacy posted:

What you describe was largely a part of life in many Southeast Asian population centers long before 2020. What seems outlandish and unreasonable to you is normal and pedestrian to many people.

Smeef posted:

This point is not true. I've lived in the majority of the countries in Southeast Asia and worked significantly in every country in South, Southeast, and East Asia, with the exception of North Korea, Brunei, Bhutan, and Timor-Leste. Before 2020, people wearing surgical masks was not an everyday thing. Yes, I'd occasionally see individuals doing it. It was rare enough that I noticed, common enough that I wasn't wondering "wtf is this person doing." Only exceptions I can think of were years when swidden or wildfires made the air unbreathable, and in my experience wearing a mask made no difference in those cases. I still got awful respiratory infections.

That said, I'm all for people wearing masks when it's the responsible thing to do (e.g., I have a light cold but have to go in public). I personally have learned to recognize that I like wearing a mask on public transportation, too, since another behavior in the region that is unfortunately common is uncovered sneezing and coughing.

the holy poopacy posted:

Fair enough, I had been led to believe it was much more widespread (although still largely a minority.)

The point remains though that it's a negligible imposition that many people already do put up with for work.

freebooter posted:

In other words China also cofounded it and provided most of the staff and research funding.

Even if you want to assume that some plucky American scientists could have rung earlier alarm bells than their Chinese counterparts - and I don't see how they could have done so before people were already presenting with pneumonia in Wuhan hospitals in December 2019 - it's another huge leap to assume this would have made a significant difference in the CCP's response, especially to the point of preventing the virus from escaping the country and thus preventing the pandemic.

droll posted:

Are you trolling? Yes helmets should be mandatory because it prevents head injuries and long term disabilities. I can't stop other riders and drivers from unsafe behavior hurting me. I wear a helmet.

Mellow Seas posted:

I was talking to a friend recently who remembered that after her child was born (~2014), her mother-in-law wore a mask voluntarily when she came to visit because she had a cold. Now, to said M-I-L, masks are Satanic, and when my friend reminds her she wore one once, just to be a decent person, she has no memory of it.

Gio posted:

Seems as though [Covid]'s an important detail.

Raiad posted:

I would certainly hope that helmet wearing would be mandatory if it was possible to spread head injuries by infection.

Steen71 posted:

A big flaming stink posted:

dude why do you keep speaking of wearing a mask like it's this horrible imposition

It's loving easy as poo poo, literally no more difficult than hand washing

Steen71 posted:

You wear a helmet for walking around and driving your car? I find that very hard to believe.

droll posted:

What is this strawman / joke poo poo? This is d&d. Engage or go away.

Fritz the Horse posted:

if you believe someone is not engaging in good faith, please report it.

Steen71 posted:

I don't know which kind of mask you're using, but FFp2 masks (I think they're called KN95s elsewhere?) definitely aren't easy to breathe through - as they shouldn't be. Also I JUST said I'd still use it if I were having symptoms.

Do you work retail?

HazCat posted:

I work in retail. I wear a P100 respirator at work. I wear it for 8 hour shifts, five days a week, and have done since November last year when Australia opened retail to the public. I take it off twice each day when I'm on break outdoors. It's honestly not a big deal.

freebooter posted:

How many of your coworkers agree?

(I personally do think we should continue with indoor masks for both staff and customers outside of eating/drinking scenarios, but can we please not pretend they're totally chill and not an imposition at all. They suck! They just suck less than the alternative!)

StrugglingHoneybun posted:

They don't suck. They're comfy to breathe through and easy to wear.

Rust Martialis posted:

Looking at the drop in ICU and vent cases, my eyes slide right over to dødsfald.

Pingui, how are we on total bed spaces, I mean clearly at some point +50 hospitalized total a day hits a limit....

Rust Martialis posted:

Looking at the drop in ICU and vent cases, my eyes slide right over to dødsfald.

Pingui, how are we on total bed spaces, I mean clearly at some point +50 hospitalized total a day hits a limit....

CSM posted:

Depends, are the hospital figures people who were hospitalized for Covid-19 or people who happened to test positive?

Mellow Seas posted:

I find masks pretty uncomfortable when I have to wear them for hours.

Masks are also undeniably an impediment to human communication. Historically speaking, we like to look at the entire face of the people we are speaking to - it gives important contextual information for their words, it gives social cues, it helps us understand them through passive lip reading (especially people with hearing issues).

It's not realistic to just expect people to wear a mask all the time. Whether it's better to wear a mask or not depends on context (and right now, of course, in the vast majority of the world, the context says "put your drat mask on".)

HazCat posted:

I work in retail. I wear a P100 respirator at work. I wear it for 8 hour shifts, five days a week, and have done since November last year when Australia opened retail to the public. I take it off twice each day when I'm on break outdoors. It's honestly not a big deal.

If you find N95/P2s hard to breath through, I recommend getting some with valves. Masks don't need to be hard to breath through to be effective.

Also re: we don't wear masks at home - I don't wear pants at home because I find pants uncomfortable, but I wear pants in public because that's just a thing that we've agreed is necessary in this society.

freebooter posted:

(I personally do think we should continue with indoor masks for both staff and customers outside of eating/drinking scenarios, but can we please not pretend they're totally chill and not an imposition at all. They suck! They just suck less than the alternative!)

Willa Rogers posted:

There was an essay I read about the illogic of masking rules, and one of them was pretending that eating indoors while maskless is a safe activity.

The virus doesn't stop circulating bc people are shoving food into their mouths, and rather requiring masks while you're walking to your table or to the restroom but relinquishing them once you've sat down with 8 other people is a bizarre twist of logic.

The point being: If we're intent on eradicating opportunities for the virus to flourish that means to stop pretending that the virus takes a break while you're chowing down or getting loaded, which means stop going out to eat indoors, which afaik has not been forbidden in any u.s. city or state over the last year.

(That's setting aside one of my big hairballs about masking rules in restaurants, which is the optic of a masked servant class attending to maskless customers.)

Willa Rogers posted:

There was an essay I read about the illogic of masking rules, and one of them was pretending that eating indoors while maskless is a safe activity.

The virus doesn't stop circulating bc people are shoving food into their mouths, and rather requiring masks while you're walking to your table or to the restroom but relinquishing them once you've sat down with 8 other people is a bizarre twist of logic.

The point being: If we're intent on eradicating opportunities for the virus to flourish that means to stop pretending that the virus takes a break while you're chowing down or getting loaded, which means stop going out to eat indoors, which afaik has not been forbidden in any u.s. city or state over the last year.

(That's setting aside one of my big hairballs about masking rules in restaurants, which is the optic of a masked servant class attending to maskless customers.)

droll posted:

What is this strawman / joke poo poo? This is d&d. Engage or go away.

Steen71 posted:

Hey, why stop there? More than a thousand Danes die from head-injuries every year. Let's make helmet-wearing mandatory.

droll posted:

Are you trolling? Yes helmets should be mandatory because it prevents head injuries and long term disabilities. I can't stop other riders and drivers from unsafe behavior hurting me. I wear a helmet.

Steen71 posted:

I wrote:

You replied:

Apparently you thought I was talking about cycling. I'm sorry I wasn't being more clear about this, but I wasn't talking about cycling. Out of the more than one thousand Danes who die every year from head-injuries, about 1% are cyclists. If people were absolutely serious about preventing head-injuries, then obviously EVERYone - not just cyclists - should be wearing helmets. I am not trolling, I am making a point about how people are perfectly willing to live with the risk of serious injury or death as long as they believe the risk is sufficiently small.

HazCat posted:

If you find N95/P2s hard to breath through, I recommend getting some with valves. Masks don't need to be hard to breath through to be effective.