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Grape posted:*looks sidelong at Chechnya* Chechnya's part of Russia, but obviously has an extremely different political and religious culture from the rest of Russia, let alone Ukraine. There's absolutely no reason to think Ukraine would turn into Chechnya, or that wiping out LGBT is a Russian war aim there. That doesn't excuse the anti-LGBT policies in Chechnya, or anti-LGBT policies short of rounding people up for camps anywhere. I'm just saying why I don't think it's reasonable to expect anti-LGBT pogroms in Ukraine.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:43
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Relevant Tangent posted:bolding mine Yes, I'm aware and I agree. The way LGBTQ+ people are treated in Russia is monstrous. I was skeptical of the intelligence that the ambassador cited in her letter, given its vagueness and the way that vague intelligence leaks have been deployed in the press throughout this crisis. But it would seem that there is at least some truth to the claims about a list. I've read Putin's speech now, and his remarks on the subject strike me as possibly aimed at intimidating Ukrainian legislators into supporting things like the constitutional changes that he has demanded. "You'd better vote how we want you to vote, if you want peace and don't want to end up on the list." But I have no doubt that life for LGBTQ+ people in whatever regions Russia occupies would become much harder, and that is abhorrent to me. I am sorry if what I said came off as denying that harsh reality; that isn't at all what I intended.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:43
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BoldFace posted:https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1495930277469769729 They're trying to reframe Russia openly entering and occupying Donbas and doing no more as a clear win -- note that such an action is no longer an "invasion" because they've always been there, even though it was universally considered an invasion by the US press on Friday -- so it is necessary to present Kyiv as in grave danger.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:44
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Sinteres posted:Almost every country hated gay people until very recently, but most didn't start rounding them up and exterminating them like Nazi Germany, and Russia isn't going to either. Struggling to see what this post means, since that poster is clearly talking about the substantial current differences between being gay in Russia as opposed to most of the NATO countries. This seems pretty dismissive for no good reason.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:44
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BoldFace posted:If this was Chess, then, yes, that would be important. But what kind of a signal does it send to the Ukrainian military if their commander already starts to retreat to the west? I'd rather lose at chess than die, myself. Of course it doesn't look good for your leadership to be fleeing, but drat, what does look good for Ukraine right now? Russian forces are formally moving into Ukraine. If I were there I'd be getting the gently caress out too.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:45
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Jaxyon posted:Struggling to see what this post means, since that poster is clearly talking about the substantial current differences between being gay in Russia as opposed to most of the NATO countries. I'm not dismissive of the idea that Russia is bad toward LGBT people or that LGBT people would be better off living in a number of other places. I just don't think Russia has a kill list for LGBT people in Ukraine, which is what Relevant Tangent was asking Majorian about.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:46
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https://twitter.com/vmsalama/status/1495936549430693889 E: https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1495934411992403969 Moon Slayer fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Feb 22, 2022 |
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Feb 22, 2022 02:47
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Sinteres posted:I'm not dismissive of the idea that Russia is bad toward LGBT people or that LGBT people would be better off living in a number of other places. I just don't think Russia has a kill list for LGBT people in Ukraine, which is what Relevant Tangent was asking Majorian about. Why don't you think that?
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Feb 22, 2022 02:48
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Relevant Tangent posted:Why don't you think that? I feel like I've answered that. We may just have to agree to disagree.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:48
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Incoming sanctions - UK, Canada, EU (limited to recognition) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/uk-impose-sanctions-russia-attack-ukraine-sovereignty https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/1495901816990621696 https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...-february-2022/ Calls for sanctions - France, Poland, Latvia https://www.elysee.fr/emmanuel-macron/2022/02/21/decision-russie-de-reconnaitre-les-regions-separatistes-est-ukraine https://twitter.com/MorawieckiM/status/1495853639692345351 https://twitter.com/edgarsrinkevics/status/1495845350128640000 Austria says that NS2 is in the core package https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/eu-sanctions-package-russia-includes-nord-stream-2-austria-says-2022-02-21/ Grape posted:*looks sidelong at Chechnya* Yeah, I'm with this one. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Feb 22, 2022 |
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Feb 22, 2022 02:49
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Russia will be chairing the UN Security Council urgent meeting which will take place soon. 
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Feb 22, 2022 02:49
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https://twitter.com/joshua_landis/status/1495849421711544328 ...okay, I'm a BIT more in favor of sanctions now than I was this morning.  (kidding, kidding)
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Feb 22, 2022 02:53
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Majorian posted:https://twitter.com/joshua_landis/status/1495849421711544328 Cry me a Jordan River. If the Israelis didn't shrug off Ukraine's desire for an Iron Dome of their own, we wouldn't be in this situation.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:56
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Looking forward to the next 48 hours of international debate on the precise definition of the word 'invasion'.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:56
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BoldFace posted:Looking forward to the next 48 hours of international debate on the precise definition of the word 'invasion'. Our thread can dispatch advisors to the contested argument.
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Feb 22, 2022 02:57
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Majorian posted:https://twitter.com/joshua_landis/status/1495849421711544328 Well now this wasn't something I was expecting. Russia troops over the border into Donbas? Sure. But this?
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Feb 22, 2022 03:00
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https://twitter.com/IMatviyishyn/status/1495922668482277381
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Feb 22, 2022 03:01
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Minenfeld! posted:Well now this wasn't something I was expecting. Russia troops over the border into Donbas? Sure. But this? Some one in the Israeli government must have gotten the reports on Russias plan to genocide a bunch of people in the occupied territories and got excited.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:03
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FWIW that seems like a pretty good speech to me.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:04
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Sinteres posted:I feel like I've answered that. We may just have to agree to disagree. You didn't answer it, you said "They don't have a list of LGBT people." and there was no reason to say that other than your own opinion as far as I can tell.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:04
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BoldFace posted:Looking forward to the next 48 hours of international debate on the precise definition of the word 'invasion'. Hey now, have hope. There's a chance things escalate past ambiguity (or "ambiguity") in less than 48 hours!
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Feb 22, 2022 03:05
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Relevant Tangent posted:You didn't answer it, you said "They don't have a list of LGBT people." and there was no reason to say that other than your own opinion as far as I can tell. Sorry you don't feel that I've adequately addressed the question, but I definitely wrote more than that. I don't believe we're going to agree on this, so let's just hope nothing like that (imo implausibly) extreme scenario comes to pass.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:06
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https://twitter.com/kylieatwood/status/1495940172831244288 question mark
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Feb 22, 2022 03:09
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https://media.un.org/en/webtv UN Security Council open meeting if anyone cares.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:10
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edit: see post above
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Feb 22, 2022 03:11
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Sinteres posted:Sorry you don't feel that I've adequately addressed the question, but I definitely wrote more than that. I don't believe we're going to agree on this, so let's just hope nothing like that (imo implausibly) extreme scenario comes to pass. I read all your posts itt to be extremely generous to you and while you've written a lot of things (many of them risible) you didn't address lgbt stuff at all until you said that list doesn't exist and I'm genuinely curious why you think that list doesn't exist. If it's that the idea of targeting lgbt people in specific is a bridge too far that'd be one thing, but the idea that russia doesn't have a list of targets seems far-fetched.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:11
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Looks like American definition of an invasion is fully met, and they'll go to pound town as soon as Biden gives Scholz a shake over the telephone.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:16
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Conspiratiorist posted:https://media.un.org/en/webtv Real weird seeing Russia run this meeting about Russia's shocking aggression Lots of strong language coming from the speakers I've seen so far, which is encouraging.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:18
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Relevant Tangent posted:I read all your posts itt to be extremely generous to you and while you've written a lot of things (many of them risible) you didn't address lgbt stuff at all until you said that list doesn't exist and I'm genuinely curious why you think that list doesn't exist. If it's that the idea of targeting lgbt people in specific is a bridge too far that'd be one thing, but the idea that russia doesn't have a list of targets seems far-fetched. I'm sure there are people they'd arrest in areas, if any, that come under their occupation over the coming days and weeks, but yeah I don't think they have a list of people to persecute specifically for being LGBT, which isn't to say that nobody would face discrimination, just that the most extreme version of that idea possible doesn't seem likely to me. I didn't address LGBT people before because nobody seemed to think that was a serious possibility until now. If I were gay I'd probably like to gtfo if possible before Russia came into my town, but tbf I'd feel the same way not being gay too, though I'll acknowledge that being gay could reasonably increase the urgency. cinci zoo sniper posted:Looks like American definition of an invasion is fully met, and they'll go to pound town as soon as Biden gives Scholz a shake over the telephone. Washington probably shouldn't say the complete opposite an hour earlier if they're going to pretend to be making big stands on principle. To me this is still premature and gives Russia no incentive to stop where they are.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:19
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coelomate posted:Real weird seeing Russia run this meeting about Russia's shocking aggression Journalists were circulating some rumours that US forced Russia to have this meeting, whatever that means in the context of relevant protocols.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:20
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Can't watch the UNSC but looking forward to the results being a big fat nothing. NATO is going to hold back with purely economic responses and Ukraine is going to be chewed up and be a bleeding geopolitical welt for a decade plus. I'm from Kharkiv Oblast and I say kill'em all!
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Feb 22, 2022 03:20
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Paracausal posted:Can't watch the UNSC but looking forward to the results being a big fat nothing. NATO is going to hold back with purely economic responses and Ukraine is going to be chewed up and be a bleeding geopolitical welt for a decade plus. You realize doing something more than an economic response could doom the entire world, yeah?
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Feb 22, 2022 03:22
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coelomate posted:Lots of strong language coming from the speakers I've seen so far, which is encouraging. That's kinda the UNSC's thing
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Feb 22, 2022 03:22
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Sinteres posted:Washington probably shouldn't say the complete opposite an hour earlier if they're going to pretend to be making big stands on principle. It could be EU-US diplomacy topic, wherein slapping the proxies with sanctions is inconsequential to the relationship with Germany and friends, but (speculating) nuking Russian gas sector is. Or that there's some part of sanctions which is some market access denial thing that only works if implemented by US, EU, possibly other parties.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:22
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Putting the BLAST in Donetsk Oblast
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Feb 22, 2022 03:24
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coelomate posted:Real weird seeing Russia run this meeting about Russia's shocking aggression Doesn't mean anything. Russia has the power to veto any action they could make that'd be of consequence. Consequently, proposals and language used are also made under that understanding.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:25
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russia very proactively goes after lgbtq activists so idk why anyone would think that they wouldn't continue that in seized territory
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Feb 22, 2022 03:27
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Herstory Begins Now posted:russia very proactively goes after lgbtq activists so idk why anyone would think that they wouldn't continue that in seized territory ah but saying they have a list is clearly a step too far
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Feb 22, 2022 03:29
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Our thread can dispatch advisors to the contested argument. Didn't we already punt on the issue when a move from advisors to troops was the explicit trigger and we said we'd decide later? It's actually really interesting to see such a low stakes issue get waffled on to avoid upsetting some people while a major crisis unfolds with the same dynamic in the west trying to not step on anyone's toes until necessary.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:31
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Sinteres posted:You realize doing something more than an economic response could doom the entire world, yeah? Yes? Doesn't mean you can't be happy about the reality that Russia is about to enact a brutal a bloody occupation? I just hope Ukraine makes Putin bleed.
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Feb 22, 2022 03:32
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