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ted hitler hunter posted:Sweden Yeah that is kind of an argument against joining. Call it seflish as gently caress, but we are pretty much integrated in NATO without having signed an agreement that we'll declare war on Russia in case they start loving with Turkey or Romania or something.
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Feb 24, 2022 20:21
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lilljonas posted:Yeah that is kind of an argument against joining. Call it seflish as gently caress, but we are pretty much integrated in NATO without having signed an agreement that we'll declare war on Russia in case they start loving with Turkey or Romania or something. I mean it also means america won't come and bail us out when putin nukes gotland.
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Feb 24, 2022 20:54
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Mymla posted:I mean it also means america won't come and bail us out when putin nukes gotland. If Putin nukes Gotland we're far from where a NATO membership or not matters. Sorry.
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Feb 24, 2022 21:17
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Feliday Melody posted:It shouldn't be a problem. There's 50+ year olds with double bad knees who get in. If you're a nurse you could also join as company nurse. Each medic group has around 5 medics and a nurse. A couple of years ago I got invited to join Hemvärnet as part of a mortar company. Did my conscription in artillery and it sounded fun if it meant firing mortars. Although based on my military experience, it would mostly mean waiting, freezing and not sleeping. Also not compatible with family life, so i skipped it.
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Feb 24, 2022 21:19
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Cardiac posted:A couple of years ago I got invited to join Hemvärnet as part of a mortar company. Did my conscription in artillery and it sounded fun if it meant firing mortars. It's Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday twice a year. And you get 80% of your pay during and then 7000 SEK skattefritt as a bonus yearly. Or Saturday to Tuesday. You're probably right about the standing around freezing part. The grenadier companies. While very useful and devastating (to the enemy). Are not very fun, most of the time. Feliday Melody fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Feb 24, 2022 |
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Feb 24, 2022 21:54
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Feliday Melody posted:It's Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday twice a year. So one day bringing out the equipment, one day deploying it, one day exercise (read waiting) and then one day cleaning and storing the equipment. I guess 1-2 mortar rounds in total will be fired.
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Feb 24, 2022 22:01
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Cardiac posted:So one day bringing out the equipment, one day deploying it, one day exercise (read waiting) and then one day cleaning and storing the equipment. And fika. Don't forget fika.
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Feb 24, 2022 22:10
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Feliday Melody posted:And fika. Don't forget fika. Let me guess, 50% of the time? I joined the FB group for my old regiment and the amount of old timers discussing how the regiment was in the 70-80s are clearly dominating the conversation. Cardiac fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 24, 2022 |
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Feb 24, 2022 22:18
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I had a (ex-peacekeeper) colleague who was in some kind of central staff position at Hemvärnet. They did LARP-style events now and then where they sat in an office and pretended that Russia invaded Skåne, and they had a lot of fika.
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Feb 24, 2022 22:40
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Tesfaye confirms Ukranian refugees will not be shipped to camps in Rwanda.
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Feb 24, 2022 22:54
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SplitSoul posted:Journalists kept asking if the Ukrainian refugees the government wants to take in will be sent to Rwanda. I remember when this first turned up and Belarus was cracking down on protestors. It's not like it was never clear that ultimately SplitSoul posted:Tesfaye confirms Ukranian refugees will not be shipped to camps in Rwanda. But I'm sure it's not because of racism!
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Feb 24, 2022 23:31
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Gedt posted:Cool! Thank you! It is really, really good to have a civilian nursing background. In practice, the safety regulations for military exercises require the presence of a medic or health care personnel on site for live fire exercises (or even target practice on a prepared range), and no one wants to cancel an exercise because their one medic called in sick.
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Feb 25, 2022 05:41
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Cardiac posted:Let me guess, 50% of the time? That's deeply worrisome because Hemvärnet in the 70's and 80s was drunken garbage and most of those people should have been purged by now. They fired something like 90% of Hemvärnet in a process to turn it into a proper fighting entity. Groda posted:It is really, really good to have a civilian nursing background. In practice, the safety regulations for military exercises require the presence of a medic or health care personnel on site for live fire exercises (or even target practice on a prepared range), and no one wants to cancel an exercise because their one medic called in sick. Each company also needs a nurse You have about 5 medics and a nurse in the medic group. Then the Battalion has a doctor. But some nurses who go into Hemvärnet want to be medics instead because they want to deal with trauma and not the aftercare part. During my training, we had an AT-Doctor who wanted to be a medic, not the company nurse or battalion doctor but a medic.
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Feb 25, 2022 07:03
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Feliday Melody posted:Each company also needs a nurse Allegedly you get more training in trauma as a medic than as a doctor if I recall my trainers. On the other hand, if you needed CPR in wartime the solution was “lol, get hosed”. Basic prioritisation was something like “oh he screams, then he is not a prio case since he can scream “. Or it might be so that the doctor accurately realized one got a nice patient blanket as a medic which is super nice when sleeping in the tents.
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Feb 25, 2022 07:33
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Cardiac posted:Allegedly you get more training in trauma as a medic than as a doctor if I recall my trainers. Yes, CPR is specifically not used in wartime because the nearest defibrillator is too far away for it to make a difference. If the heart doesn't beat, then they're a priority 4.
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Feb 25, 2022 07:47
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If the heart does not beat there's nothing to defib.
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Feb 25, 2022 08:22
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thotsky posted:If the heart does not beat there's nothing to defib. Let  tell you about Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.
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Feb 25, 2022 09:56
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Just a matter of time before Sweden starts to sell iron to Putin.
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Feb 25, 2022 11:17
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In the spirit of neutrality, both Russia and Ukraine can use our railways as much as they want.
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Feb 25, 2022 13:00
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https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1497217148267253760 sweden or finland joining nato may have "detrimental military consequences", okay naturally the nato proponents are saying this means now is a great time to join while the russians are busy elsewhere. they're not wrong, but i'm still not convinced joining is a good idea. we're a freeloader yes, but we've gotten away with it for a very long time because of our very favorable strategic situation and i'm not sure if that has changed or will change.
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Feb 25, 2022 15:58
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What are the major downsides of joining?
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Feb 25, 2022 16:02
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Feliday Melody posted:What are the major downsides of joining? We have start being bad at following STANAGs.
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Feb 25, 2022 16:21
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This is why we shoulda gotten nukes man Who would want to even bother with Sweden if we could fart some atomic bombs at them as a response? It'd never be worth it
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Feb 25, 2022 16:33
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Feliday Melody posted:What are the major downsides of joining? potentially having to send citizens to die in some conflict we have nothing do with, lots of pressure to tie ourselves even closer to the american military-industrial complex. aligning ourselves with US foreign policy would be a downside but we mostly already do that anyway, unfortunately. the current situation isn't really good either, we're clearly NATO-aligned and NATO-dependent without having any of the formal guarantees. the thing is, our strategic situation with the baltic sea, finland and the baltic states between us and russia is extremely good. we obviously can't win a war against russia on our own, but the reality is we actually don't need to, because they can't get here all at once. we could win a war against the 76th guards air assault division, for example, with relatively modest military spending. there's been a lot of complaining from NATO proponents about the margin doctrine thinking of the cold war days, but I really don't think it was wrong in practice. there isn't much solidarity in this line of thinking, but geopolitics isn't for the sentimental.
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Feb 25, 2022 16:34
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Feliday Melody posted:What are the major downsides of joining? Ok, say that Putin, after Ukraine, begins to escalate a border beef with Turkey in 2025. Or Romania. This sounds insanely improbable, but so did a full-on invasion of Ukraine in 2021. Now, if we are members of NATO, that would mean that we would be forced to declare war on Russia if it escalated into an open conflict. If we're not members, we could, you know, not fight a war against Russia over Turkey. That's.... kind of a downside not often mentioned by the pro-NATO crowd. You basically don't get all that much more, as Sweden is currently practically interlinked with NATO, EU and Nordic defense networks, while removing options in how to react to global security events. By joining NATO you exchange one target on your back to another. It's not just a "get out of jail" card like some people think, and arguably not being a part of NATO is a better deterrent for Sweden than being a part of it. Sweden's position, geographically and politically, is light years away from Ukraine's. Also we'd probably be forced to spend our hard-earned tax money on stupid boondoggles like the F35. Goddammit I'd be prepared to sacrifice a lot to avoid that poo poo. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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Feb 25, 2022 16:46
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Feliday Melody posted:What are the major downsides of joining? We'd have to start buying the F-35.
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Feb 25, 2022 16:51
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Can't we just like, Like, just get a long man?
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Feb 25, 2022 16:58
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what even IS a country, man? what even ARE borders, maaan
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Feb 25, 2022 16:58
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lilljonas posted:Ok, say that Putin, after Ukraine, begins to escalate a border beef with Turkey in 2025. Or Romania. This sounds insanely improbable, but so did a full-on invasion of Ukraine in 2021. Now, if we are members of NATO, that would mean that we would be forced to declare war on Russia if it escalated into an open conflict. If we're not members, we could, you know, not fight a war against Russia over Turkey. How many times have an article 5 actually been raised by NATO? 9/11? Where incidentally Sweden ended up sending troops anyways? Seems like a non issue to me. And as for the F-35, Gripen serves the same purpose for the Swedish military. The Swedish military exists to pay for Saabs military industrial complex. At least the F-35 would give access to something with better capabilities than the gripen and support from similar western countries.
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Feb 25, 2022 16:59
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lilljonas posted:Ok, say that Putin, after Ukraine, begins to escalate a border beef with Turkey in 2025. Or Romania. This sounds insanely improbable, but so did a full-on invasion of Ukraine in 2021. Now, if we are members of NATO, that would mean that we would be forced to declare war on Russia if it escalated into an open conflict. If we're not members, we could, you know, not fight a war against Russia over Turkey. lilljonas posted:That's.... kind of a downside not often mentioned by the pro-NATO crowd. You basically don't get all that much more, as Sweden is currently practically interlinked with NATO, EU and Nordic defense networks, while removing options in how to react to global security events. By joining NATO you exchange one target on your back to another. It's not just a "get out of jail" card like some people think, and arguably not being a part of NATO is a better deterrent for Sweden than being a part of it. Sweden's position, geographically and politically, is light years away from Ukraine's.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:00
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Collapsing Farts posted:Can't we just like, wanna meet that long man
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Feb 25, 2022 17:01
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Read all the arguments and they're good points. I don't agree with the whole "sending citizens things" We always had more than enough volunteers for UN stuff. If Sweden needs to send troops to defend Eastern Europe. We will have 3 or more volunteers for every available slot. No one will be forced to go.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:06
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A Buttery Pastry posted:A full-on invasion of Ukraine was never insanely improbably after 2014. In any case, you're talking about a WW3 scenario where Sweden would end up getting nuked to hell anyway, just to not be a potential threat to any Russian survivors. Because not being in NATO means that we're not automatically an active enemy if there is a Russia-NATO fight, which means that it's not necessarily the best idea for Russia to pre-emptively seize Stockholm, Åland and Gotland as part of an initial attack. And so on. This is dangerously close to (or is) Clancy chat, but it's not hard to imagine scenarios where you're less likely to end up in an active war as a neutral country, compared to if you're a part of a major military alliance. Rather, it's often kind of a thing. Like in, I dunno... WW2?
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Feb 25, 2022 17:07
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Feliday Melody posted:What are the major downsides of joining? Being part of NATOs aggressive wars is a major one.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:07
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The fact is that we have more leverage outside Nato than in it. Magda Andersson (PM) is very clear that our current line stays, and that being predictable is key to staying out of escalations.This is something I do agree with. Joining nato also means we become a military fiefdom of the USA, completely dependant on the goodwill of an electorate that put trump in the white house.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:08
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That said, I'm curious if Finland will end up joining NATO now. I'm honestly not sure if I believe it would make it more or less reasonable for Sweden to join NATO.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:25
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Cardiac posted:And as for the F-35, Gripen serves the same purpose for the Swedish military. but have you considered the jobs??? Saab and its employees pay taxes in Sweden, Lockheed Martin does not. Also, the cost to the Swedish state for the entire Gripen E program including all of its development costs is still cheaper than what it would cost to buy the equivalent number of F-35's at the current flyaway cost right now. These days people seem to think innovation only happens in VC-funded private companies, but the fact is that until quite recently the state was a major source of funding for corporate R&D programs and took the initiative for many major innovative engineering projects. Companies like ASEA, Ericsson and a lot of other now-acquired-into-oblivion engineering companies would not have been nearly as successful or competitive without the government contracts they got. To be clear, I'm not trying to claim Gripen is actually profitable for the Swedish state or anything like that, but domestic spending on high-tech projects tends to have a lot of spinoff effects that are hard to quantify but shouldn't be ignored.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:31
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lilljonas posted:Because not being in NATO means that we're not automatically an active enemy if there is a Russia-NATO fight, which means that it's not necessarily the best idea for Russia to pre-emptively seize Stockholm, Åland and Gotland as part of an initial attack. And so on. This is dangerously close to (or is) Clancy chat, but it's not hard to imagine scenarios where you're less likely to end up in an active war as a neutral country, compared to if you're a part of a major military alliance. Rather, it's often kind of a thing.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:31
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TheFluff posted:potentially having to send citizens to die in some conflict we have nothing do with, lots of pressure to tie ourselves even closer to the american military-industrial complex. aligning ourselves with US foreign policy would be a downside but we mostly already do that anyway, unfortunately. the current situation isn't really good either, we're clearly NATO-aligned and NATO-dependent without having any of the formal guarantees. I found it interesting Finland has a bigger military bugdet than Ukraine.
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Feb 25, 2022 17:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That's not a deterrent. Also, the whole point would be to seize Gotland before going against NATO. Call it deterrent or not, I don't agree with the calculation that Sweden is automatically less likely to be invaded if they are a NATO member. But I am open to the fact that you can come out with different results of that calculation depending on how you evaluate different factors. I don't think it's an open and shut case that NATO membership = safe, while not in NATO = obvious target, which is that some NATO proponents would like you to believe. His Divine Shadow posted:I found it interesting Finland has a bigger military bugdet than Ukraine. Ukraine is like, very poor compared to Finland. One of the countries that were hit the worst at the end of the Soviet state and never economically climbed back to even 1980's levels of GDP. Finland has a good army. It makes sense that they have a bigger military budget, even if Ukraine spends more % of GDP. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Feb 25, 2022 |
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Feb 25, 2022 17:46
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