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Just Another Lurker posted:It's mixed, 2,500 members from latest info, but if you're a neo nazi from another country that's where you want to go. Ah cool I didn't know Ukraine had compulsory military service before this. Even so, conscription seems like such a violent act to me, idk, far more violent than anything most individual conscripts will do in the course of war. And some of those people being prevented from leaving will have done their service ages ago, they're going to near-enough green, especially in an actual combat situation. On the Azov lot, one thing that had always confused me about fash is their willingness to co-operate with international fash. Surely by definition they would all despise one another, as every nationality obviously thinks they're the ubermensch? NotJustANumber99 posted:Well yes that is exactly what it is but it might actually work. If they slow the invasion down enough that public opinion/money/russian army morale turns against it in Russia then the country might survive. With respect, if I ever had to choose between 'my country' and my life, I'd choose my life every time. Maybe if I saw something worth defending I'd think differently, but in any case stripping people of that choice is a lovely, lovely thing to do. Is Ukraine as an abstract concept worth millions of lives? Hell no. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 17:37
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it's kind of dangerous to talk definitively any more because nothing is certain anymore but i;d be confident you'll never see conscription in the uk again the forces hate the idea, it's politically poisonous, and you'd have sky high avoidance conscript armies are not like professional armies. the original function of the royal marines was principally to stop the enlisted sailors (who were heavily pressganged) from simply killing their officers and fleeing, their guns were as much trained at their own side as the enemy
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Mar 2, 2022 17:38
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ThomasPaine posted:On the Azov lot, one thing that had always confused me about fash is their willingness to co-operate with international fash. Surely by definition they would all despise one another, as every nationality obviously thinks they're the ubermensch?
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Mar 2, 2022 17:40
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I also really cannot see why I would take up arms for a country that frankly, hates me and has offered me nothing but contempt from the moment I was born.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:42
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ThomasPaine posted:With respect, if I ever had to choose between 'my country' and my life, I'd choose my life every time. Yup. Well, my life, and the lives of the people who I am supposed to fight, who I have 100% more in common with than those who sent me to fight them OwlFancier posted:I also really cannot see why I would take up arms for a country that frankly, hates me and has offered me nothing but contempt from the moment I was born. Also this. I owe this shitehole nothing.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:46
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ThomasPaine posted:
I don't really disagree. It is what it is
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Mar 2, 2022 17:46
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There’s a difference between taking up arms to defend the idea of a country in the abstract, and taking up arms to defend your real home and country that’s full of your friends and family and community and would suffer massively in the event of being successfully invaded by a powerful neighbour. I don’t agree with conscription but quite a few Ukrainians I know have stayed behind to fight willingly, and I don’t see why they shouldn’t be given the tools to do so if that’s what they want to do. I admire their bravery.
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Mar 2, 2022 17:55
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Jakabite posted:I don’t agree with conscription but quite a few Ukrainians I know have stayed behind to fight willingly, and I don’t see why they shouldn’t be given the tools to do so if that’s what they want to do. I admire their bravery. And good for them, if they choose to do so. They certainly are brave. I just don't think anyone should be stopped from leaving if that's what they want.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:02
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I would not lift a finger to save the UK but if the day ever comes I will take up arms against perfidious Albion.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:03
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Chuffin' eck. I'm on £68 a month with them fixed 2 years (literally a week before it all went pear shaped). Before all of this we were just about £80 a month for fuel bills. WFH hasn't helped though with Xmas bills just being slightly higher than non winter months for the last year. We're in a new build so things are pretty energy efficient save for a PC running all day. A winter newborn hasn't helped either. Gotta keep the house a stable 21 degrees for him; the tumble dryer has gone from a once a week thing to an every day thing so he's got dry clothes; his steriliser and bottle warmer are also basically mini kettles so I'm sure they're not that energy efficient (not to mention the extra kettle boils for formula and hot water bottles. Biggus Dickus posted:Is that for both G&E? Octopus were pretty upfront about not being best for gas and I found SO Energy were better for me. Both G&E as far as I'm aware. Though I suppose the specific figure is based on my estimated annual usage (which had just been bumped up to £130 under the current price cap). Martin Lewis speaks sense but, well, he's a "public figure" more and I don't think he can outright say what we all know about the energy sector being corrupt from the top down without getting into legal issues. It's maybe a bit too much "hope is a lie" but we've got a corrupt UK government who have no intention of truly policing energy companies and energy companies who are happy to take the piss. I fully expect that come October the cap will rise again because of nebulous "Ukraine" reasons that'll never be fully explained in a way that it can be thoroughly questioned by the wider population.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:03
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OwlFancier posted:I also really cannot see why I would take up arms for a country that frankly, hates me and has offered me nothing but contempt from the moment I was born. You surely have to see the difference between being conscripted to go "liberate" a foreign land that has accidentally found itself on top of some valuable resource that should actually belong to Her Maj, and defending against such a "liberation"? If the French had just come marching up the Channel Tunnel and were currently shelling Canterbury, I'd (after getting my family safely off to my sister's mountain redoubt just outside Stratford-on-Avon) be signing up with the 9th Cockney Very Irregulars and heading off to a last stand at the Blackwall Tunnel. Not for Queen, flag, or even Tubby Issacs' Jellied Eels, but to protect my family, friends, even that neighbour who keeps flicking dogends into my garden. It might even be that I'd be sympathetic to the French reason for the invasion (possibly the abomination that passes for a "croissant" in most supermarkets in this country) but at the point where there are people with guns heading towards people I care about, I'm putting myself in their way. (This sounds rather more chest-beating than it did in my head, but I think the point stands. Nationalism is just a way the ruling classes have attempted to subvert the natural instinct to protect your loved ones by extending that love to a line on a map, it doesn't invalidate that love)
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Mar 2, 2022 18:16
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I don't really know that I would be protecting them from anything, the government is already killing them by inches, and thanks to their hostility I have few of them left, I'm afraid it's going to take more than "we will kill you slower" to offset the joy of watching it all go up in flames. My kin have no future and neither do I, they've made sure of that. So why should I give a poo poo?
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Mar 2, 2022 18:21
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I was literally wondering on my way to work this morning, if this poo poo goes mental which country I would take up arms for. Not the UK that's for drat sure. Maybe Spain? Portugal seems chill but I've never been there.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:28
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Ukraine is corrupt as poo poo but that seems like a good a choice as any at this point.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:30
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OwlFancier posted:I don't really know that I would be protecting them from anything, the government is already killing them by inches, and thanks to their hostility I have few of them left, I'm afraid it's going to take more than "we will kill you slower" to offset the joy of watching it all go up in flames. I hope this doesn't sound patronising but that is an extremely unhealthy worldview and I seriously suggest you try and get some help with it.
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Mar 2, 2022 18:31
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It can be unhealthy in the sense that it is counterproductive to survival but that doesn't stop it being more accurate than the alternative. Like, really, my entire life it has only gotten harder to stay alive, there is no inheritance waiting for me so I can't just wait for someone to die, and even if I could the world I would be living in then is almost certain to be one more hostile to life, with greater scarcity, fewer opportunities for self actualization, and I will be older and sicker than I am now, with more of the people I care about gone to boot. Absent a generalized belief that "the future has to get better" which I do not think is supported by the evidence, I have never heard a counterargument. Not even a good counterargument mind you, literally the only counterargument I have ever heard is that people just don't like that read of the situation and I should therefore stop thinking it. If you want to hold a generalized optimisitc outlook I'm not going to tell you you shouldn't. And if the circumstances of your life have been more fortunate and you do have things you would be willing to fight and die for, then I can hardly tell you you're incorrect. But I cannot personally say I believe in the former and I certainly have not observed the latter. The world we live in necessitates some people for whom those circumstances are true, and a proportion of them will recognize that situation for what it is. I don't think you're being patronizing, I think that it is very normal and on an evolutionary level, necessary for most people to outright dismiss that view of the world, and to have a strong emotional dislike of it as well, for the same reason we are afraid of heights, or bears. It is a useful instinct to have from a personal preservation perspective. It does, however, run into issues when you simply... can't feel that way? When your lived experience simply does not permit an instinctively optimisitic view of the world to the exclusion of other interpretations. And all most people can offer is "get help" in a tone varying from compassionate to patronizing to invective depending on the speaker. I would say, from experience, that there is very little help available as well, even if that were functioning in a fashion other than a thought terminating cliche, which I think it generally does, even when meant compassionately. Mental health resources are virtually non existant and even those that do exist still cannot contend with the actual reality of your life a lot of the time. How do you argue someone out of what is, ultimately, a pretty reasonable read of their own life? You have to do that, of course, because any self examination that ends up with you believing that your life might have negative value has to be medicalized into being unacceptable outside of a few specific situations where that rule is suspended (and even then only sometimes, not so long ago I had someone come up to a colleage and, unprompted, offer that her terminally ill relative was a piece of poo poo because the speaker thought he had killed himself when he was terminally ill, life positivity is still very pervasive in some people, even past the point I think most people ITT would think it quite reasonable that someone should have a right to say "no, enough, I'm done now thank you") Instead, again speaking personally, I have found a more... I guess sustainable viewpoint has come from not instinctively rejecting the idea that life is poo poo and maybe not worth continuing with. I have found my mental state to be a lot more stable since I stopped resisting that idea, honestly. And I am still here, after all. I'm waffling a bit but I guess the point I want to get at is that I really, really do not think it is unreasonable for anyone to think that their life is poo poo and have serious questions about whether it is ever going to get better. I don't think that "help" is actually available or even capable of helping people who have made that assessment in a lot of cases because I think it is probably a quite reasonable assessment a lot of the time. And personally I have found it more useful to find a stable plateau on the other side of that conclusion. Life may not be worth living and it might not get any better, but for the moment I am still here, and it is certainly better for me, at least, to live owning that assessment, rather than being made to feel like it is an unacceptable thing to think. If anything that pressure only makes it harder to deal with. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 18:36
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I think it's philosophically sound to say that the current UK regime is not worth fighting and dying for while acknowledging that other regimes could be worse. e: personally I can imagine alternatives which would be so much worse that I would fight and die for the neoliberal order as we have known it, if that was the choice. I fully acknowledge that it treats some people much worse than me. jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 18:56
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I just got my av changed by, I think, the war thread in D&D, so I am a touch sad at that. I just think the whole thing is tragic. Nothing good is going to come out of it. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 18:59
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They're a grumpy bunch in that thread, yeah.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:02
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OwlFancier posted:It can be unhealthy in the sense that it is counterproductive to survival but that doesn't stop it being more accurate than the alternative. tbh a lot of your posts smack of motivated reasoning from a depressed person, I've seen my own thoughts do the same thing. It's very easy to rationalise why your negative thought processes are actually completely true. But, you are wrong, and imo therapy would be very good for you, so please get help. Challenging these kinds of thought processes is literally the only thing that widely available therapies are good for, but they are good for it, and will improve your life. It has to be your choice since it's a lot of loving work & needs to start from accepting that maybe these thought processes are irrational, but... just throwing a voice on the pile in case it helps it to sink in. They are irrational, there are good things in the world.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:04
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I could see the government instituting a draft, it's an excellent way to thin out the young, who they hate.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:05
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Borrovan posted:It actually isn't more accurate than the alternative. I, a person with chronic depression, know full well that I'm better off alive than dead, despite constant thoughts to the contrary, & even if the end result is the same. I'm sure given a choice as to whether I died or not you would absolutely choose for me not to, which is completely inconsistent with your previous post. I try to consistently err on the side of positivity when dealing with other people but that isn't because I think it is the right thing to do, my better judgement tells me it probably isn't, but it is a practical concession. I have tried therapy and it doesn't help, it only makes things worse. If it works for you and you are happy with the results that is good and I am happy for you, but it has only ever made things worse for me. Does it not at least perhaps strike you as odd that the advice is basically "stop trusting yourself, your ideas have to be wrong, put your faith in what someone else tells you is the right thing to believe until you start to internalize it"? Under any other circumstance I would think you would find that advice suspect, no? You would think they were being inducted into a cult or something? You can see, at least, why I find it difficult to accept. Left to my own devices I am actually quite content most of the time, it is the constraints of the world and society that cause the problems which is why I take a lot of umbrage with them. The world could be one I would like to live in, the world could be one where I am free to pursue things I want to do, but it isn't because the people in charge want me to simply be a tool to generate wealth for them. That also makes me rather reluctant to start thinking that the problem is with me and not the world. Because the world is obviously very unjust and it really doesn't have to be, not physically, it only is because of societal inertia. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 19:15
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I wouldn't fight for the UK per-se but I would fight to keep the Russians out. The UK can treat LGBT+ folk pretty poorly (especially the T) but we would suffer far greater under the Russian regime. And that's worth fighting against for me.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:26
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OwlFancier posted:Does it not at least perhaps strike you as odd that the advice is basically "stop trusting yourself, your ideas have to be wrong, put your faith in what someone else tells you is the right thing to believe until you start to internalize it"?
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Mar 2, 2022 19:28
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OK so the problem is with the world. There are two possibilities here: a. The world is something you can change, so you might as well try b. The world is something you can't change, so you might as well try to change your attitude, because guess what, you're going to be fuckin dead at the end either way And yes, I'm aware both options are easier said than done
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Mar 2, 2022 19:29
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Like what is even the point of saying 'oh no nothing matters so I might as well be a blackpilled sadsack'. Being a blackpilled sadsack does not in fact matter either. This is something I'm saying just as much to myself as I am to any of you.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:33
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Jakabite posted:There’s a difference between taking up arms to defend the idea of a country in the abstract, and taking up arms to defend your real home and country that’s full of your friends and family and community and would suffer massively in the event of being successfully invaded by a powerful neighbour. goddamnedtwisto posted:You surely have to see the difference between being conscripted to go "liberate" a foreign land that has accidentally found itself on top of some valuable resource that should actually belong to Her Maj, and defending against such a "liberation"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHB6j6Tp1IY OwlFancier posted:
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Mar 2, 2022 19:34
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Honestly that just sounds like you had a poo poo therapist. When I had a good one, it wasn't "don't listen to your thoughts listen to me", it was "lol your rationalising sucks git gud n00b". Now I can pretty easily spot when my brain's tricking me & just don't get sucked into counterproductive & irrational thought processes. I'm still depressed tho lol, I just have a job & stuff now. Still, better
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Mar 2, 2022 19:34
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TACD posted:Yeah this central contradiction of “your feelings are valid but also wrong” absolutely winds me up. I don’t want to address / fix my feelings, I want to address the problems in my life that cause those feelings, but therapy has no interest in that (probably because a lot of people have problems that are unfixable or that would require the overthrow of capitalism). I have found a few other people who have expressed something to that effect yeah, and it can be very isolating sometimes when you're just met with a wall of "your feelings cannot be correct, sorry" Again I don't blame people for thinking that because it really feels a lot like most people exist inside this... how to describe it..? A sort of idea-space that has these walls between their normal headspace and the space I and seemingly a significant number of other people, exist in. And the therapeutic answer to this is seemingly just to try and shove as many of us as possible back onto the other side of the wall without ever addressing the reason for why some of us end up thinking differently? Like it doesn't matter why, all that matters is that we stop and get back on the right side of the wall. Like so much of the rhetoric seems to be limited to either getting you to get back into line or to ostracise you, putting you on the other end of the "get help" cliche, which allows the person saying it to distance themselves from the person it is being said to (and this is why you can just as readily spit it at someone as offer it kindly) I do, honestly, hope that over time this will change. Because I really do think it does more harm than good and impedes understanding why people feel the way they do. Dabir posted:
It doesn't necessitate a conspiracy, it just necessitates a lack of interest in understanding people with what are identified as mental problems, on the part of the people tasked with dealing with them. Which, I would hope, would not come as a surprise to you? It's pretty normal. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 19:34
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You are not as complicated and unique as you would apparently like to believe.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:38
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Also considering the whole point of therapy is to teach you to work stuff out by yourself, if what you got from it was "don't listen to yourself & take what I say on faith", it sounds like you might just have been too depressed to engage with your therapy properly Hence the closing of my post before last, it's got to come from you. Worth it in the end though Borrovan fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 19:38
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Dabir posted:You are not as complicated and unique as you would apparently like to believe. I specifically said that I don't think this is unique, and I don't think it is even very complicated? I think it is probably a surprisingly common experience.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:39
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I don't think your mood - or anyone's - is nearly as dependent on externalities as you believe.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:44
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TACD posted:“your feelings are valid but also wrong” It's normal to feel poo poo about world being a gently caress & beyond our power to fix, but it's also very easy to use that to rationalise a bunch of other harmful & irrational thoughts, which is just hurting yourself for no reason. Better to feel slightly less poo poo imo
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Mar 2, 2022 19:47
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I enjoyed reading The Mind is Flat, which I addresses a bunch of things about how a lump of electric suet keeps deceiving itself in determinable ways. It's not a self help book but that's good because those are poo poo, and it prompted a bunch of "nooo you can't just say that most historical psychotherapy is pseudoscience they're already looking for reasons to defund us" "haha electric dumpling go brr" dialog, because flat minds respond better to some kinds of thought process modulators than whatever horseshit Freud and Jung were on.Mega Comrade posted:I wouldn't fight for the UK per-se but I would fight to keep the Russians out. The UK can treat LGBT+ folk pretty poorly (especially the T) but we would suffer far greater under the Russian regime. And that's worth fighting against for me.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:47
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What on earth else would it be more dependent on? Why do people care about the material conditions of their life if not that it's the primary effector of how they feel?
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Mar 2, 2022 19:48
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It is not enough for us to imagine Sisyphus happy, we must make him agree with us.
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Mar 2, 2022 19:49
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Guavanaut posted:I enjoyed reading The Mind is Flat, which I addresses a bunch of things about how a lump of electric suet keeps deceiving itself in determinable ways. It's not a self help book but that's good because those are poo poo, and it prompted a bunch of "nooo you can't just say that most historical psychotherapy is pseudoscience they're already looking for reasons to defund us" "haha electric dumpling go brr" dialog, because flat minds respond better to some kinds of thought process modulators than whatever horseshit Freud and Jung were on. This sounds fascinating, ordered, thanks fellow smoothbrain
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Mar 2, 2022 19:53
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Borrovan posted:Also considering the whole point of therapy is to teach you to work stuff out by yourself, if what you got from it was "don't listen to yourself & take what I say on faith", it sounds like you might just have been too depressed to engage with your therapy properly This is a wall I've been running up against recently, it's frustrating Josef bugman posted:I just got my av changed by, I think, the war thread in D&D, so I am a touch sad at that. I saw the way they talked to you in there, and I was sorry to see it, mate. Bunch of loving bug-eyed jut-jaw yank liberal fucks
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Mar 2, 2022 19:53
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Borrovan posted:Also considering the whole point of therapy is to teach you to work stuff out by yourself, if what you got from it was "don't listen to yourself & take what I say on faith", it sounds like you might just have been too depressed to engage with your therapy properly If you are seeking therapy then by necessity (as you correctly identified) you have to have a sufficient element of doubt in yourself that you think you need to be fixed, or possibly you have been pushed there by other people around you. But again is you correctly identify, in order for it to take, you must lack sufficient confidence in your self assessment to be open to having the interpretation of your therapist inserted in there instead of your own. Or to find their reasoning more compelling than your own, however you want to look at it. The "it" in "it has got to come from you" is a desire to change your thought patterns, which necessarily has to stem either from external pressure or a sufficient lack of confidence in your exsiting assessment that you would be persuaded to think differently. If you are quite confident in yourself then it probably isn't going to take, no, unless someone can present an argument that you find more compelling. I think the major divergence in our interpretations is that you are perhaps starting from the belief, for whatever reason, that the reasoning that leads me to my position is wrong (possibly because the conclusion is abhorrent or possibly because something about it looks wrong to you, I cannot say what is in your head) but from my perspective I don't see anything wrong with it, though I agree that the conclusion is somewhat abhorrent. I would simply call my reluctance to change my position "confidence" which I believe to be borne of the same thing my confidence in any other position would be, it seems perfectly reasonable to me. And that I have yet to be convinced otherwise by argument is simply because I think my argument is the stronger one, I find it more compelling. It is, however, really the same reasoning and the same brain that leads me to agree with left wing positions, the world is bad (because of capitalism) and I would be happier if it were less bad. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Mar 2, 2022 19:58
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