[Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

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Falukorv: Jun 23, 2013; A funny little mouse!

Peggotty posted:

Is that some sort of joke I'm not getting or are you honestly recommending Christopher Clark?

What is the deal with CC? Havent gotten around to read Sleepwalkers yet, but i liked his book on Prussia (Iron Kingdom) well enough for a popular history book. I would be willing to assign more blame on Germany for ww1 than he does but dont know enough about the man aside from being on one side of a controversial historiography surroinding ww1.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

First successful one. That said, it makes sense that the British would not be spearheading this line of research, given that a leap in naval technology would mean having to rebuild their entire navy. Sort of like how America probably wouldn't want to invent an entirely new type of dominant ship type, because it'd devalue its current lead. (The MIC might gently caress with that logic though.)

Brits kind of opened that door themselves with the dreadnoughts.

# ? Mar 2, 2022 16:30

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# ? May 25, 2024 12:25

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

the first dreadnought was a little after the first steam boat

# ? Mar 2, 2022 17:57

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

Dreadnought Willie

# ? Mar 3, 2022 08:07

Peggotty: May 9, 2014

Falukorv posted:

What is the deal with CC? Havent gotten around to read Sleepwalkers yet, but i liked his book on Prussia (Iron Kingdom) well enough for a popular history book. I would be willing to assign more blame on Germany for ww1 than he does but dont know enough about the man aside from being on one side of a controversial historiography surroinding ww1.

The book is ridiculous, he doesn't even try to refute the common understanding about the beginning of WW1, he just completely ignores anything that doesn't support his argument. The book ends up talking in detail about the pre-war international relations in France, Russia, Serbia and Great Britain and just leaves out anything happening in Wien and Berlin. He also ignores the role of the German arms industry and tons of other factors, and most egregiously, he sometimes leaves out the main part of sources he actually uses because they would counteract his argument. It wouldn't be acceptable as a bachelor level essay because it's so wilfully one-sided.

After the book turned out to be extremely popular in Germany (wonder why) he went on making a documentary series for German TV about the 14000 year (yes really) history of "The Germans" and wrote a report for the House of Hohenzollern where he supported their ridiculous claim that they never supported the Nazis. Just a great guy all around.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 09:45

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

Did the Hohenzollerns support the nazis?

# ? Mar 3, 2022 12:50

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Tankbuster posted:

Did the Hohenzollerns support the nazis?

He never credibly or forcefully spoke out against Nazism, and was interested in them insofar as he thought they were useful to his potential return to Germany, and even when that didn't happen, he still praised their conquest of France when it happened.

from "The Kaiser: War Lord of the Second Reich", by Alan Palmer

# ? Mar 3, 2022 13:06

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

I've had goons quote Sleepwalkers at me in a "Serbs had the genocide coming" way. Which generally shapes how I think of that book. Haven't read it.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 13:07

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

I think Sleepwalkers is still useful, but mainly in that academic history often works in a very slow thesis-antithesis-synthesis kind of process, where we start out studying something from a certain point of view, then someone comes along and makes the case that that's wrong and something else is true, but they have to overstate their case to make the point since they're arguing against an established tradition so their conclusions overreach, and then eventually we arrive at an understanding that includes elements of both the incorrect-in-one-way first reactions and the incorrect-in-the-other-way second reactions. Clark probably places too much fault on the Entente and not enough on the Central Powers, but it's still useful as an antithesis to older accounts that say it was all Germany's fault, and thanks to that we can arrive at a synthesis that says everybody involved was a horrible imperial power that was fine with having a big old war, rather than it being all the fault of evil warmongers in one capital while everybody else nobly strove for peace.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 14:44

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Never trust a history book which places the British on the side of good. I mean, just look at them.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 14:50

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Yeah historiography is often a pendulum. I thought Sleepwalkers was fine but I'm not deeply familiar with the arguments at play. I thought some of his arguments about Austro-Hungary were interesting anyway.

my dad posted:

I've had goons quote Sleepwalkers at me in a "Serbs had the genocide coming" way. Which generally shapes how I think of that book. Haven't read it.

The book opens with a description of the overthrow of one of the Serbian kings which is a particularly bloody and brutal affair, maybe that's part of it? I don't feel like he blames the Serbs, but he also doesn't them treat them like they were completely hapless and without any kind of agency.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 14:50

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

The Clark book made me realise that Tito was a hero.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 18:55

R. Mute: Jul 27, 2011

vyelkin posted:

I think Sleepwalkers is still useful, but mainly in that academic history often works in a very slow thesis-antithesis-synthesis kind of process, where we start out studying something from a certain point of view, then someone comes along and makes the case that that's wrong and something else is true, but they have to overstate their case to make the point since they're arguing against an established tradition so their conclusions overreach, and then eventually we arrive at an understanding that includes elements of both the incorrect-in-one-way first reactions and the incorrect-in-the-other-way second reactions. Clark probably places too much fault on the Entente and not enough on the Central Powers, but it's still useful as an antithesis to older accounts that say it was all Germany's fault, and thanks to that we can arrive at a synthesis that says everybody involved was a horrible imperial power that was fine with having a big old war, rather than it being all the fault of evil warmongers in one capital while everybody else nobly strove for peace.

wasn't it published in 2012? popular conception of the war may still be what it always was because historians don't impact society, but i feel like the field moved past the idea that the entente were virtuous saints and the central powers were brutes some time ago.

# ? Mar 3, 2022 19:23

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

R. Mute posted:

wasn't it published in 2012? popular conception of the war may still be what it always was because historians don't impact society, but i feel like the field moved past the idea that the entente were virtuous saints and the central powers were brutes some time ago.

max hastings would like to vigorously disagree with you lol

god i love his tory outrage its so delicious

# ? Mar 3, 2022 19:23

R. Mute: Jul 27, 2011

the english don't count. they're stuck in the 1910's intellectually

# ? Mar 3, 2022 19:37

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

his book on vietnam is my favorite because even he can't argue the west should have won the war or that a PAVN victory wasn't the best outcome

e: like he tries extremely hard to both sides bad the war but every time he brings up a communist atrocity its instantly overshadowed by three committed by ARVN or the US

Raskolnikov38 has issued a correction as of 19:44 on Mar 3, 2022

# ? Mar 3, 2022 19:40

frankenfreak: Feb 16, 2007; I SCORED 85% ON A QUIZ ABOUT MONDAY NIGHT RAW AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY TEXT

#bastionboogerbrigade

gradenko_2000 posted:

He never credibly or forcefully spoke out against Nazism, and was interested in them insofar as he thought they were useful to his potential return to Germany, and even when that didn't happen, he still praised their conquest of France when it happened.

That's just Wilhelm II, though. If you get to the former crown prince — whoof!

e: The role of the former crown prince has actually been the topic of some academic and political debate here. The Hohenzollerns themselves are trying to get a lot of their poo poo back that passed into state ownership. The counterpoint to that is that the Hohenzollerns have aided the nazis too much and can't have their poo poo back because there's laws against giving people who were or helped the nazis their poo poo back. And the crown prince is at the center of that.

e2: Which coincidentally brings us full circle to Clark who authored an opinion paper in favor of the Hohenzollern. Which he lowkey disowns now since he only got sources from the Hohenzollern archives to use and seems uncomfortable to have his name thrown around in conjunction with the implication that the crown prince wasn't that bad.

frankenfreak has issued a correction as of 21:31 on Mar 3, 2022

# ? Mar 3, 2022 21:20

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

various royal properties in europe seized during/after ww2 being returned to pretenders actually makes me more depressed than climate change lol

look how recent this is

https://balkaninsight.com/2020/10/13/bulgarian-ex-tsar-simeon-ii-wins-palace-ownership-case/

# ? Mar 3, 2022 21:34

Peggotty: May 9, 2014

R. Mute posted:

wasn't it published in 2012? popular conception of the war may still be what it always was because historians don't impact society, but i feel like the field moved past the idea that the entente were virtuous saints and the central powers were brutes some time ago.

Yes, he was about 60 years too late for that.

# ? Mar 4, 2022 09:28

Maximo Roboto: Feb 4, 2012

Didn't realize that Tito was to Stalin what Castro was to the CIA

https://historycollection.com/josip-broz-tito-yugoslavian-leader-survived-waves-stalins-assassins-hitlers-best-troops/

# ? Mar 4, 2022 19:54

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Maximo Roboto posted:

Didn't realize that Tito was to Stalin what Castro was to the CIA

https://historycollection.com/josip-broz-tito-yugoslavian-leader-survived-waves-stalins-assassins-hitlers-best-troops/

that headline url missing the 'and' is very funny

# ? Mar 4, 2022 20:02

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

my dad posted:

I've had goons quote Sleepwalkers at me in a "Serbs had the genocide coming" way. Which generally shapes how I think of that book. Haven't read it.

Half of what i've read about Yugoslavia has a pretty obvious anti serb bias.

# ? Mar 6, 2022 17:21

FPyat: Jan 17, 2020

Anyone got any perspective on Churchill by Andrew Roberts? I liked his Napoleon biography, but I read that another one of his books has a lot of Tory takes in it, so I'm a little worried it'll be overly fawning. There's also William Manchester's three-part biography, which I hear is very adoring.

# ? Mar 7, 2022 23:20

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

# ? Mar 9, 2022 05:14

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

rip Big Ben, unable to contemplate the significance of a Red Light District

# ? Mar 9, 2022 11:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

R. Mute posted:

duncan may have evolved in his politics somewhat from first podcasts, but he's still as pig poo poo stupid as he ever was

https://twitter.com/mikeduncan/status/1501261156106657793
https://twitter.com/mikeduncan/status/1501264404402167809

yup

# ? Mar 9, 2022 11:32

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

gradenko_2000 posted:

yup

https://twitter.com/mathewfinch5/status/1501267772189200389

lmao

# ? Mar 9, 2022 11:35

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

i heard some horrifying dystopian report from behind the lines a couple days ago about how russian soldiers are stripping POWs looking for nazi tattoos and my first thought was "oh yeah i remember that day of boot camp, it was day nine after everyone mixed and got over their shared sicknesses. nobody got kicked out because nobody had nazi tattoos"

# ? Mar 9, 2022 11:38

500excf type r: Mar 7, 2013; I'm as annoying as the high-pitched whine of my motorcycle, desperately compensating for the lack of substance in my life.

i say swears online posted:

i heard some horrifying dystopian report from behind the lines a couple days ago about how russian soldiers are stripping POWs looking for nazi tattoos and my first thought was "oh yeah i remember that day of boot camp, it was day nine after everyone mixed and got over their shared sicknesses. nobody got kicked out because nobody had nazi tattoos"

They check you for tattoos at meps when they make you duck walk etc before they ever let you sign the dotted line

# ? Mar 9, 2022 12:09

birdstrike: Oct 30, 2008; i;m gay

500excf type r posted:

They check you for tattoos at meps when they make you duck walk etc before they ever let you sign the dotted line

They also check if your duck walk turns into a goose step

# ? Mar 9, 2022 16:00

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

500excf type r posted:

They check you for tattoos at meps when they make you duck walk etc before they ever let you sign the dotted line

oh interesting, I didn't do that at MEPS, it was week two of basic at ft benning because i remember my drill sergeants grumbling about it. seems like something they should do at MEPS though lol

# ? Mar 9, 2022 20:26

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

birdstrike posted:

They also check if your duck walk turns into a goose step

lol

# ? Mar 9, 2022 20:26

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

AnimeIsTrash posted:

Half of what i've read about Yugoslavia has a pretty obvious anti serb bias.

A bit late on this, but outside of xenophobic inertia of the propaganda campaigns in the past decades, it's generally less anti-Serb bias, and more just generally being completely off the mark about a bunch of stuff. Years ago while I still posted in the military history threads, I brought up bunch of straight up invented poo poo that gets passed on everywhere because it's rarely challenged and confirms preexisting beliefs.

A historical tidbit: Judah Alkalai was an influential proto-Zionist thinker, and a lot of his writing about what he imagined future Israel should be was based off of what he perceived liberal revolutionary Serbia to be. It went on to influence how a lot of other people in Austria etc perceived Serbia... Here's the problem: He was full of poo poo and was basically writing utopian (from a nationalist point of view) fanfics that had little to do with the actually existing Serbia at the time.

Like, something about 19th century Serbia broke a lot of brains in Europe, and we're still reading words that were written using leaking brain goo instead of ink as history. And then people writing later histories went on to quote that, extrapolated unrelated things to Yugoslavia, and round and round we go.

my dad has issued a correction as of 20:53 on Mar 9, 2022

# ? Mar 9, 2022 20:49

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

my dad posted:

A bit late on this, but outside of xenophobic inertia of the propaganda campaigns in the past decades, it's generally less anti-Serb bias, and more just generally being completely off the mark about a bunch of stuff. Years ago while I still posted in the military history threads, I brought up bunch of straight up invented poo poo that gets passed on everywhere because it's rarely challenged and confirms preexisting beliefs.

A historical tidbit: Judah Alkalai was an influential proto-Zionist thinker, and a lot of his writing about what he imagined future Israel should be was based off of what he perceived liberal revolutionary Serbia to be. It went on to influence how a lot of other people in Austria etc perceived Serbia... Here's the problem: He was full of poo poo and was basically writing utopian (from a nationalist point of view) fanfics that had little to do with the actually existing Serbia at the time.

Like, something about 19th century Serbia broke a lot of brains in Europe, and we're still reading words that were written using leaking brain goo instead of ink as history. And then people writing later histories went on to quote that, extrapolated unrelated things to Yugoslavia, and round and round we go.

That doesn't sound too shocking, most of what I found was from western journalists who visited after the war. Do you have any books or articles you'd recommend about Yugoslavia?

# ? Mar 9, 2022 22:04