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That's a problem I find with open ended negotiation games, especially for the first play. It's a game about haggling, so let's do ten minutes of horse trading over every little thing.
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Mar 5, 2022 07:43
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Blamestorm posted:New Angeles I had a lot of fun with the one time I played it and I think it’s solution to this has been the best (haven’t played stationfall). I suspect it’s just too long and conceptually kind of mind bendy for most groups, and I haven’t been able to play it enough to see how it holds up over multiple plays - I suspect some kind of a limited meta would probably develop and that would be interesting to see. I am determined to get it out again but maybe play it with a timer as I think In theory it could be played a lot faster and leaner than what we manage - we had a lot of discussions that really pushed the game length out. I've only played it maybe three or four times to completion and maybe four other times where we quit in the middle, and that was around when it came out, but I remember even once you got a hang of the flow of the game, it felt badly overturned. Like you constantly had to keep these extraneous plates spinning to the degree that the fun parts of the game, ie politicking and wheeling and dealing, trying to figure out who was your rival, etc. ended up taking too much of a back seat. It's a game I want to love but it's too elaborate and way, way too long for how much attention it requires of the players. Even the fun games of it were sort of actively fatiguing.
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Mar 5, 2022 08:06
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I'm just slowly getting over having a kid, having bad jobs, some sort of pandemic and buying a house, and getting back to what matters: board games! My real question is basically "what's the best games of the past 4-5 years that I should play", but that's way too broad. Instead, my old board game friend has a birthday coming up, and I figured he'd get a game. I've been looking at Terraforming Mars, which was on my radar before life happened, and it still seems like a good bet? I'm ideally looking for something that has a strong sense of theme, combined with simple mechanics that still have depth. Does Terraforming Mars have too many fiddly bits, or is pretty smooth? And does the theme shine enough that it's not just moving bits around a board? For comparison, we've played a lot of Pandemic, which is really good in terms of theme and mechanics, but at this point is too obvious because we've played it too much. We've done Mage Knight a few times, which definitely had too many fiddly bits, but was still fun and something we might do again (if I can read up on the rules...). Last time, we played A War of Whispers, which seemed really good in terms of being simple but with a lot of depth from the player interactions. He complained that Tash-Kalar had way too many options, leading to AP on his part though. Traditionally, he's been kinda against worker placement because it's too dry, but he's coming around if the theme is not pasted on and the complexity is not too overwhelming in the first game. So, Terraforming Mars, or something else?
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Mar 5, 2022 08:26
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bagrada posted:Good luck! I hope Player 3 pulled the queen in round 1. Why would you say this? 
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Mar 5, 2022 08:38
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BonHair posted:So, Terraforming Mars, or something else? TfM is not really "thread approved" but it is very, incredibly, wildly popular, so it would be disingenuous of me to fully dismiss it. Most people seem to like it, and despite all scientific evidence to the controversy, goons are people. It is almost certainly the biggest gaming hit in that time period. Based on my single play of it, I can say it's got a manky production and involves drawing from a massive single deck and takes way too long, but the act of converting resources from one is undeniably pleasurable. (As I say this out loud, I wonder if 51st State would be better for me but have that same feel, though I doubt it is thread approved either. The recent crowdfunding campaign put it on my mind again.) We have goon-approved suggestions in the OP as well of which many are quite new. A few ones that I think might mesh with your group: Spirit Island is a cooperative game like pandemic, but considerably more complicated. It's about nature spirits rising against imperialist settlers to get them to leave the island they are despoiling. You team up and use your supernatural powers to do all sorts of cool stuff. Also a big hit, but waaaaay more complicated than Pandemic. (I have not personally played this.*) The Crew or The Crew: Deep Sea are cooperative trick taking games. At the start of each round, the team has a goal, such as "Suzie must win the trick containing the Green 5." There are other complications that I won't spoil, but you have to keep the cards in your hand a secret, so you must infer what the other players are trying to do based on their behavior. It seems weird, and as this game blew up in popularity, lots of people thought, "It couldn't be that good, could it?" Believe the hype, this game is loving terrific. And it's dead simple to play. Concordia or Concordia Venus sound to be around the right weight for that group, even if this game is not exceptionally thematic. It's a game about trading in the Mediterranean during a time of peace in Rome. You spread across creating trading houses to expand your empire, but unlike something like Power Grid where you're blocking your friends, everyone in a town benefits when their region produces. It adds this wonderful push and pull of "I want that two Wine and one Brick, but it will also give Samir a Food. Is that worth it?" It also has an incredibly interesting and opaque scoring where you gain cards to get additional actions which double as points multipliers, but they only multiply what you have on the board, so you need to balance between expansion and cards. It's amazing. Or just get TfM if you think your guy will like it. I'm not your dad and this thread is wrong about loads of stuff. *Okay, technically I playtested this once at Pax East during the summer where I dove back into board games, and it is continually nuts to me that this random game with the adorable little carpentry mushrooms not only got lavishly printed but rose to top ten on BGG.
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Mar 5, 2022 09:31
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TfM is a fun game but lets itself down in a number of places, notably almost everything you can do is based on random card draws and the only way to mitigate that is to play a drafting variant, and this also means that you kind of need to know what all of the cards do in order to play properly, and there's 150+ of them in the base game without expansions. Sometimes games can drag out extremely long if everybody just wants to generate more points and doesn't care about ending the game. A lot of people also complain about the low quality of the artwork. With that all said, there's something about the flow of the game which is usually pretty satisfying even if the core gameplay has problems, and it has a really strong theme going. Concordia is easily in my top 3 games I've ever played, it has incredibly straightforward and easy to remember rules (most of them are literally on the cards) while still managing to give compelling and surprisingly complex gameplay. It's dry as gently caress though, and the gameplay is only loosely connected to the theme (not Castles of Burgundy tier dry, but not far off). If you do get it, the Venus box is a good deal and has some slight differences from the base game which are (as far as I've been able to tell) generally considered to be improvements.
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Mar 5, 2022 10:28
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Magnetic North posted:TfM is not really "thread approved" but it is very, incredibly, wildly popular, so it would be disingenuous of me to fully dismiss it. Most people seem to like it, and despite all scientific evidence to the controversy, goons are people. It is almost certainly the biggest gaming hit in that time period. Azul, Gloomhaven/Jaws and Wingspan could all be contenders for that too. I think Terraforming Mars does a really good job with theme and is mechanically simpler than it looks. Something like Race is absolutely a better game but there are situations where TfM will be easier to get to the table and I can see why some people will prefer it.
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Mar 5, 2022 10:43
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This is exactly why I asked this thread. You guys are usually a bit more analytical about game mechanics, which fits both me and my friend well Random draw of a huge deck is a big turn off for both of us, so dodging that is great. The Crew sounds pretty much perfect honestly, and Concordia sounds pretty good, since we both like thinking in zero sum terms and especially making moves that screw others more than ourselves to get ahead. We actually played Spirit Island, which was a huge hit with both of us, to the point that I think he already bought it.
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Mar 5, 2022 10:55
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BonHair posted:This is exactly why I asked this thread. You guys are usually a bit more analytical about game mechanics, which fits both me and my friend well Random draw of a huge deck is a big turn off for both of us, so dodging that is great. The Crew sounds pretty much perfect honestly, and Concordia sounds pretty good, since we both like thinking in zero sum terms and especially making moves that screw others more than ourselves to get ahead. Well, if that's the case, then the recommendation I removed for fear of it being too complicated was Brass: Birmingham the 'sequel' to the 2007 Martin Wallace game Brass, now reprinted as Brass: Lancashire. I personally have not played it any version of Brass (you may notice a theme here, my group skews light), but I believe Birmingham comes goon approved with absolutely no reservations outside of weight. If you've got a half hour, Rodney's video explains the rules. I realized we didn't talk about player counts, but Brass goes up to 4, The Crew goes up to 5 and regular Concordia goes up to 5 while Concordia Venus contains team-based gameplay for up to 6.
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Mar 5, 2022 11:13
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1st game of Nemesis ended in a massive loving explosion because the whole ship was on fire and broken. Literally ran out of tokens for both lol Highlights include - The Captain rolling FOUR Creeper symbols in a row, followed by a blank while attacking an Adult and wasting all their ammo. - Revealing myself as out to murder one player by using the Decoy item and shifting an Adult into the room they were in, and then closing the doors on them - forcing them to fight 2 Adults at the same time they lived barely - The Soldier wasting all their ammo, punching an adult twice, being trapped and corned for 4 rounds unable to do anything and still not able to kill the intruder  All in all just the right amount of dickishness for the game type that it is. The tone of the game shifted IMMEDIATELY after the first encounter happened and people were forced to choose an objective, and that quiet sense of hesitant cooperation flew out the window with it. Currently seeing if I can line up the same group to play next week. 
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Mar 5, 2022 14:01
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What I was pleasantly surprised by was how good Fast & Furious: Highway Heist was Played the Tank scenario, where you had to launch wrecks into a tank to try and stop it. Ramming cars, performing stunts, leaping on top of other vehicles, all while trying to solve the puzzle of how to do as much damage as possible to this thing before it sped away. We lost in the end, but it was surprisingly challenging for what it was. Was not expecting to like a tie-in game like this - would recommend if you're interested in Thunder Road Vendetta
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Mar 5, 2022 14:16
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FulsomFrank posted:No must haves by any stretch. Viticulture + Tuscany is a perfectly fine MWE. Haven't played it but Space-Biff gave a glowing review to the "new" version of Libertalia if that's something you might be into? Yeah, I had never heard of that and it sounds fun. But alas that one is what my friend is getting. Euphoria, Tapestry and Charterstone all sound fun but I don't know if they fill in any "blanks" at the moment.
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Mar 5, 2022 15:52
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Tapestry is a poorly balanced mess with disjointed mechanics and a weak theme.
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Mar 5, 2022 16:30
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Whatever else you do in Charterstone, nobody play blue, and do NOT use the Automa under any circumstance.
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Mar 5, 2022 16:32
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Infinitum posted:Why would you say this? Lol, good ole Nemesis. I said it because I'm used to planning for my friendlier goal only to have everything go to crap for half the ship so very early that we all shrug and take the corporate goal. Generally we just try to get ourselves out alive while confidently assuming our target will die on their own, but there has been hilarious use of the room that blockades then ejects another room into space. Don't idle in a yellow room without your door demolition card. Glad you had fun. One of my players swears the dice are weighted to the creeper symbol even in Lockdown.
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Mar 5, 2022 16:41
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gschmidl posted:Whatever else you do in Charterstone, nobody play blue, and do NOT use the Automa under any circumstance. More details?
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Mar 5, 2022 22:56
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What I like about Stonemaier is that he uses content creators of color and that he seems to be progressive leaning at least? Yes Tapestry shipped with a balance issue but he's addressed that both in errata and in the latest expansion? Unlike video games where issues can be patched easily, it's not that way with board games. Video games also often track players play, something board games can't do (yet??). I also liked that he put out Pendulum, a niche game that we love, instead of worrying about the number of sales. No he shouldn't have to worry about sales with the popular games he has, but a lot of publishers are too afraid of risk to try much truly new or different. We have played Tapestry with two and it works fine with the errata. Overproduced certainly, but there's no titty mini's in there and that says something yes? Being a tech type person, Charterstone irritated me no end. Felt like I was in a '70's library trying to use the Dewey Decimal system. I like Viticulture, it's cool but games of that complexity aren't long term keeps for me so when I could flip it I did. Libertalia was at DTW but I didn't get a chance to play it. I hated the original (forgot why though) so who knows maybe the new version will fix what I didn't like? Looking forward to playing it someday.
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Mar 5, 2022 23:05
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Mayveena posted:What I like about Stonemaier is that he uses content creators of color and that he seems to be progressive leaning at least? Yes Tapestry shipped with a balance issue but he's addressed that both in errata and in the latest expansion? Unlike video games where issues can be patched easily, it's not that way with board games. Playtesting can't catch everything, but the more a game is playtested, the more gets caught. Too many games are let out the gate with too little playtesting and there are very, very few acceptable excuses for it.
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Mar 5, 2022 23:16
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These descriptions of Nemesis looked great till I looked at the price 
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Mar 5, 2022 23:23
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homullus posted:Playtesting can't catch everything, but the more a game is playtested, the more gets caught. Too many games are let out the gate with too little playtesting and there are very, very few acceptable excuses for it. The main excuse for balance issues in playtesting is that if 1000 people buy your game and 4000 play it, one of them is inevitably going to find something that your group of 20 playtesters did not. Magic the Gathering has always been the poster child for this - while it has hundreds of playtesters which for some time has included a number of pros, it has millions of players.
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Mar 5, 2022 23:24
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Mayveena posted:I like Viticulture, it's cool but games of that complexity aren't long term keeps for me so when I could flip it I did.
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Mar 5, 2022 23:26
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King Burgundy posted:More details? Blue had an unbeatable combo starting by like game 3 and continuing to the end. The automa will screw your game over in multiple ways, but to name the most egregious one would be a massive spoiler.
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Mar 5, 2022 23:27
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Admiralty Flag posted:Quick question...what value, if any, do the expansions to Viticulture add to the game? When playing with my usual opponents I'm usually able to most efficiently get through the whole cycle and win, so anything that shakes it up would be welcome. As I understand it, one expansion is just more visitor cards? (And most of my usual opponents spend too much time messing around with visitor cards so I'd hate to encourage more screwing around with them...) Any thoughts welcome.
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Mar 6, 2022 00:04
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Admiralty Flag posted:Quick question...what value, if any, do the expansions to Viticulture add to the game? When playing with my usual opponents I'm usually able to most efficiently get through the whole cycle and win, so anything that shakes it up would be welcome. As I understand it, one expansion is just more visitor cards? (And most of my usual opponents spend too much time messing around with visitor cards so I'd hate to encourage more screwing around with them...) Any thoughts welcome. Two expansions are just more Visitor cards - the ones with "Visitors" in the name are both meant to replace the original decks. There are also New Visitor and Advanced Visitor modules in Tuscany. Beyond that, Tuscany adds a new board with four seasons instead of two and different bonuses. It also has a small area control game attached. Mamas and Papas is an asymmetric setup module, and there are two modules that add small side boards to the player mat (designed so you can only use one at a time). My favourite module was always the Specialist Workers, though; this lets you spend £1 extra to acquire one of two workers with a unique ability in place of one of your regular workers. There's 20 different abilities in all, ranging from discounts if the worker is used for a certain action to taking an action from a previous season, and figuring out how to best use the combinations adds a lot of variety.
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Mar 6, 2022 00:05
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homullus posted:Playtesting can't catch everything, but the more a game is playtested, the more gets caught. Too many games are let out the gate with too little playtesting and there are very, very few acceptable excuses for it. Stonemier claims alot of playtesting but that really can't be true. No one played Charterstone, Scythe, Tapestry or Viticulture and thought 'yup this is fine'. I could maybe accept viticulture is a design choice but the other 3 are just bad out the box.
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Mar 6, 2022 00:31
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homullus posted:Playtesting can't catch everything, but the more a game is playtested, the more gets caught. Too many games are let out the gate with too little playtesting and there are very, very few acceptable excuses for it. The best thing about Jamie is he actually has quite a good play testing program - but he doesn't use it properly. For example, his own playtestibg data showed the balance problems with tapestry, but he doesn't know how to analyse it effectively or implement the changes into the game.to correct the issues.
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Mar 6, 2022 00:47
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What, one player starting with 45 more points than the other 3 players isn’t an elegant balancing solution?
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Mar 6, 2022 01:16
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The best playtesting I was personally involved with was the custom Tash Kalar client coded by Vlaada that he used to get an incredible amount of stats about the game. I saw a bit of it and it was things like number of draws per faction, how long specific cards were kept in the hand before being played, how often they were discarded etc etc. Tash Kalar didn’t and doesn’t have perfect balance but a lot of effort was made in order to ensure it had at least an approximation of it.
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Mar 6, 2022 01:41
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Play testing is hard from a publisher/designer point of view. The worst ‘play test’ ever was New Coke, that was a multi million dollar disaster. Blizzard releasing Diablo 3 in its original state has to go down as the worst AAA game ever. So if board game publishers blow it sometimes that’s not something I’ll especially hold against them as long as they acknowledge the issue(s) and and fix them as errata or if necessary an expansion.
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Mar 6, 2022 02:59
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Bottom Liner posted:What, one player starting with 45 more points than the other 3 players isn’t an elegant balancing solution? No this is the best part. The timeline is A) tapestry internal play testing B) game release C) BGG notices the game is hugely unbalanced D) BGG collates user statistics on the game being a mess F) Jamie publishes his own stats about the game being a mess that have similar aggregate values to the bgg analysis, but he hadn't done any breakdown or even thought about Like his main graph was showing what % of total games was won by each faction - which showed that the factions were all within 5-6% points of each other. But in a game with over a dozen factions if one is at 10% win rate and one is at 4% that's actually a huge problem. But either he didn't think to look into it, didn't realise that that is actually a huge issue, or just didn't care G) then he releases the very clunky balance patch which demonstrates that he has no idea how to use play test data. Given scythe is similarly hilariously unbalanced, it's hard to tell if he doesn't understand his own data, doesn't have the curiousity to look into it deeply, or just doesn't care Mayveena posted:Play testing is hard from a publisher/designer point of view. The worst ‘play test’ ever was New Coke, that was a multi million dollar disaster. Blizzard releasing Diablo 3 in its original state has to go down as the worst AAA game ever. So if board game publishers blow it sometimes that’s not something I’ll especially hold against them as long as they acknowledge the issue(s) and and fix them as errata or if necessary an expansion. This is what's so weird about Jamie. With new coke, the tests didn't bare out int he real world possibly due to study design or congnitive bias, so the test data didn't align to the real world situation. I can understand getting things very wrong in this situation where the data you have gathered to support your decision making is faulty. Jamie on the other has published his own play test data that's shows he had discovered the problems and had all the required data! And then didn't do anything about it!!! Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Mar 6, 2022 |
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Mar 6, 2022 03:48
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New Coke's testing basically held up, the problem was that they were asking the wrong questions. They successfully developed a more popular flavor than classic Coke and then it turned out no one actually drank Coke because they thought the flavor was good, they drank it because it was an institution. In board game terms, they decided to remake a classic Ameritrash game and rigorously fixed all the balance issues and pain points and then no one wanted to play anymore because the stupid bullshit was the only reason anyone liked it in the first place.
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Mar 6, 2022 04:21
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the holy poopacy posted:New Coke's testing basically held up, the problem was that they were asking the wrong questions. They successfully developed a more popular flavor than classic Coke and then it turned out no one actually drank Coke because they thought the flavor was good, they drank it because it was an institution. People who get mad when I explain that you don't get money from Free Parking.
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Mar 6, 2022 05:30
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Why do so many love Scythe when it's so bad??? I met a ton of people at DTW who love the game, even folks who I really respect. I totally don't get it. However I can't blame Jamie if he doesn't change (much of) what's working so well, the game is super popular.
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Mar 6, 2022 06:58
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MikeCrotch posted:These descriptions of Nemesis looked great till I looked at the price Yeah you're pretty much paying for a bunch of plastic. I reckon a cardboard standee version would be half the price easily
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Mar 6, 2022 07:00
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Mayveena posted:Why do so many love Scythe when it's so bad??? I met a ton of people at DTW who love the game, even folks who I really respect. I totally don't get it. However I can't blame Jamie if he doesn't change (much of) what's working so well, the game is super popular. My impression is that it's a pretty fun game at its core, just held back needlessly by awful faction balance (which is not a dealbreaker for some people, somehow). I've only played it a couple times though, so maybe there are more fundamental issues that I didn't play long enough to pick up on. I know that some people are disappointed that conquest is not more rewarding but I feel that's almost more of a strength than a weakness.
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Mar 6, 2022 07:09
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the holy poopacy posted:My impression is that it's a pretty fun game at its core, just held back needlessly by awful faction balance (which is not a dealbreaker for some people, somehow). I've only played it a couple times though, so maybe there are more fundamental issues that I didn't play long enough to pick up on. I know that some people are disappointed that conquest is not more rewarding but I feel that's almost more of a strength than a weakness. I think a bunch of it is that unless you play repeatedly and competitively you just don't notice the issues. if you sit down for a fun time with a less critical mindset, the game does do a lot of things really well (the turns are very fast, the pieces are very nice, the game has a very visible sense of progression on the board, and it comes to an end pretty quickly). The issues are with things like particular combinations of player boards being busted, but it's easy to play 5+ games of scythe and never see an overpowered or underpowered combination, let alone see it twice. Given the modern gameplay environment, how many people actually play a game 5 times? 10 times? I play my collection pretty heavily and with that said half my games are played less than 5 times.
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Mar 6, 2022 10:05
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I usually think goons are a little too hard on Jamey. It's a weird mix of "successful", "a perception of being self-absorbed" (I won't accuse him of such things, but sometimes his blogs and poo poo are a little off) and "The games are not goon approved". But then again I've only had the chance to play Between Two Cities. One of my friends has Wingspan and we are yet to play it. I'm looking forward to is because BIRB   
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Mar 6, 2022 10:37
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I think a bunch of it is that unless you play repeatedly and competitively you just don't notice the issues. if you sit down for a fun time with a less critical mindset, the game does do a lot of things really well (the turns are very fast, the pieces are very nice, the game has a very visible sense of progression on the board, and it comes to an end pretty quickly). The issues are with things like particular combinations of player boards being busted, but it's easy to play 5+ games of scythe and never see an overpowered or underpowered combination, let alone see it twice. There's only two straight up busted faction/board combos in Scythe, one Rusviet and one Crimean. That's not awful out of 49 possibilities. The Nordics are also a bit weaker than the other factions and Crimea are maybe a little too strong. Overall, though, I've never seen someone completely hosed out of the game just by their starting position; by the time someone gets their sixth star everyone usually has 3 or 4 and is close to a couple more. So as you say, it feels nice and you won't notice the problems if you play to play rather than play to win.
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Mar 6, 2022 10:41
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:I think a bunch of it is that unless you play repeatedly and competitively you just don't notice the issues. if you sit down for a fun time with a less critical mindset, the game does do a lot of things really well (the turns are very fast, the pieces are very nice, the game has a very visible sense of progression on the board, and it comes to an end pretty quickly). The issues are with things like particular combinations of player boards being busted, but it's easy to play 5+ games of scythe and never see an overpowered or underpowered combination, let alone see it twice. The balance issues in Scythe are bad but there are also tactics in the game which are degenerate. Like getting into the middle, which some factions do better than others. But I think a lot of people just don't care. They're around to just play a game for a couple of hours and not mind if they win or lose. I was playing the Transformers Deck Builder the other day. Played it twice now and it's the worst game I've played in a long time. It's a normal deck builder except most cards are unique. Instead of a market row there's a grid of face down cards that you wander around and spend resources to turn over. Sometimes it's a card you can buy, sometimes it's a deception that punches you in the face. All the characters you play have abilities keyed of certain card types, ally, autobot, manoeuvre etc. So if you're Bumblebee you need Allies to work, if you're Optimus Prime you need Autobots. There are 6 Allies in the deck and 12 Autobots. What I'm say is this game is bad very bad. But go on BGG and its all people absolutely loving it. Some people are just very strange and love bad games. One of my strangest playtesting experiences was playtesting the Game of Thrones card game. They sent us all copies of the book to read first and the cards. We built some decks and Lanister were broken as poo poo. The game was almost unplayable. You had 2 decks, your main deck and a deck of plot cards that was maybe 6 cards or something and one went off every turn. One of these killed everyone in play, another one killed all but one person in play for each player etc. So you could play a Lanister deck that just killed everyone all the time, so not only was it very powerful it was brutally unfun to play against. We submitted our notes and the response was 'oh yeah that's fine there are cards in the other half to deal with that'. They hadn't sent us all the cards, and plot twist the other half absolutely did not deal with that.
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Mar 6, 2022 10:51
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Magnetic North posted:I usually think goons are a little too hard on Jamey. It's a weird mix of "successful", "a perception of being self-absorbed" I asked a question about Charterstone once and Jamey told me I was playing it wrong. Not that I had the rules wrong or anything but that I just shouldn't do the good thing because it wasn't really how you were supposed to play the game. That stuck with me as an insight into his design philosophy.
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Mar 6, 2022 10:56
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