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No Wave posted:Is there really anyone who has variable timing for the same attack string? Margit will hold his stick up in the air while you walk circles around him for a comically long amount of time before giving up. There's several enemies with similar go-up-to-you-and-slam attacks that can hold them for a decent range. I don't know of variable timing for attack strings because attack strings seem pretty much arbitrary and based on input reads. It's a two-hit combo if you move out of the way, and it's a five-hit combo if you attack after two hits. I railed on "wait your turn" combat before release, in particular because Sekiro does it better, but in the endgame boss rush segment "your turn" is a concept that might not exist for a good stretch of time. RBA Starblade posted:e: Oh wait, I got it wrong. They're all Tarnished, but still. They don't really feel like they matter especially much. I guess that's a pretty GRRM thing though. The fact that they get dramatically called out in the intro makes them seem like they'd be bosses, but they're just... I guess more famous tarnished? Like Rogier and Nepheli specifically state they lost their guidance but if all the residents of the roundtable are technically on the same path you are they really need to get on the ball.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:23
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Cowcaster posted:horse is too big He really should have had a donkey instead
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Mar 7, 2022 20:24
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I do wish they'd carried over from Sek and had less giant monstrosity bosses and more honorable 1v1 duels. No reason that has to be limited to historical Japan universe
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Mar 7, 2022 20:24
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Mailer posted:Margit will hold his stick up in the air while you walk circles around him for a comically long amount of time before giving up. There's several enemies with similar go-up-to-you-and-slam attacks that can hold them for a decent range. my personal favorite of these is the sword watchdogs which will do instant 90' pivots if you try to avoid it by hugging their non-sword side
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Mar 7, 2022 20:25
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Cowcaster posted:it is my own grand tradition where when a goon looks at a game like elden ring and says "i could have designed this better than from software" i instantaneously disregard everything they have to say It kinda goes hand-in-hand yeah There's this thing people do where they don't like a game and they fantasy redesign it in ways that completely disregard what the game is trying to achieve. Breath of the Wild is actually an interesting example here. I've seen people argue that they should've given you an infinite durability basic weapon early on, but then make the weapons you can get from enemies (the breakable ones) always stronger than it. You'd still want to use them, but you'd never be left struggling for a weapon. The problem with this is that it flips the weapon mechanic on its head entirely. It's pretty clear, at least in the early game in BotW, you're supposed to feel scrappy--like you're getting by with whatever you can find. You're not empowered, you're the underdog. The breakable weapons you find are necessary resources. If you always had a decent fallback sword, now the weapons you find are power-ups, not necessary resources, and it's no longer a system that makes you feel like the underdog. It switches from something that intentionally disempowers the player to something that empowers them. And it's fine if that's more to someone's taste! If you don't like games that add some intentional friction to make you feel like you're scraping by and need to be resourceful, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean it isn't a valid design goal, and going "I can fix this game" by essentially throwing away that goal isn't actually fixing anything. Weapon durability in BotW is also a great example because it's not a perfect mechanic and does have some weird interactions, but there are ways to "fix" it that don't throw away the entire premise and I find it much more interesting to throw around ideas like that.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:25
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Mailer posted:Margit will hold his stick up in the air while you walk circles around him for a comically long amount of time before giving up. There's several enemies with similar go-up-to-you-and-slam attacks that can hold them for a decent range. Hourah Loux, chieftain of the badlands. Dead lady we found next to a more dead guy. Some Dick. And Sir Weirdo, the Ear Lover.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:26
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Tosk posted:I've heard that a lot of catacombs and smaller dungeons are very similar, but is it a really egregious problem that will grate any player's nerves or is it the kind of thing that is probably less noticeable if you put your 150 hours of ER in over the course of say, a month or two instead of 10 days? I'm a chugger completionist and I don't think it's even bothersome here, especially compared to basically every other open world game. Copy+pasted pointless poo poo is my number one open world complaint, I refunded Dying Light 2 because I had already seen most of what they were going to be copy pasting by then. A lot of the smaller dungeon types do have a lot of repeated parts and the bosses are variants of a different pool, but I've felt each dungeon had it's own little gimmick or set of challenges. The ones that were boring were ones I outleveled or were intended as a runner-up to a more advanced version of the gimmick I had already done. I think last night was my first moment of "routine" when I went to a new zone, and I realized how much faster I was advancing through the areas, I found a couple of ruins and I didn't even get off horse to look around, I just circled around to find the set piece that usually has the underground boss or treasure in it. And even then, this time when I kind of thought another blah ruins, it turned out to have a unique miniquest/interaction in it with an old friend I wasn't expecting.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:26
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Breath of the Wild also throws *so many* weapons at you (even if most of them suck) that you're practically never unarmed. And in the event you are you have magic. That complaint always felt weird
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Mar 7, 2022 20:28
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Mailer posted:The fact that they get dramatically called out in the intro makes them seem like they'd be bosses, but they're just... I guess more famous tarnished? Like Rogier and Nepheli specifically state they lost their guidance but if all the residents of the roundtable are technically on the same path you are they really need to get on the ball. What's up with this anyway. Are we all sharing our own instances of the world, when I invade an NPC for Volcano Manor, am I just going into that guy's save and fucknig them up? Do they respawn as we do or are we giving them some kind of true death?
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Mar 7, 2022 20:28
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Cowcaster posted:spoiler if you want but where are the easy ones in liurnia? the first rise i found needs a gesture i don't have well, the one here:  you just hop up around the back and climb the broken wall to the top and jump in, chest is in the usual spot.this one is just the usual hit 3 turtles one:  both you can get quickly when starting. queeb fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Mar 7, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2022 20:29
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I had to look up how to get in there because I didn't want to hurt a turtKhanstant posted:What's up with this anyway. Are we all sharing our own instances of the world, when I invade an NPC for Volcano Manor, am I just going into that guy's save and fucknig them up? Do they respawn as we do or are we giving them some kind of true death? For that matter, is it that no one can die or that they aren't dying right and that's why random enemies are going hollow and losing their minds this time.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:30
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Inzombiac posted:I know there's a quest but with the Dung Eater lol i did the same thing.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:33
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Ranni's quest was ridiculously elaborate. and seems to be the only way to access a whole DLCs worth of zones and bosses
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Mar 7, 2022 20:33
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Tosk posted:I've heard that a lot of catacombs and smaller dungeons are very similar, but is it a really egregious problem that will grate any player's nerves or is it the kind of thing that is probably less noticeable if you put your 150 hours of ER in over the course of say, a month or two instead of 10 days? I actually don't think the catacombs or smaller dungeons are too similar, weirdly. They reuse tilesets and enemy types but there isn't a single one (past Limgrave at least) that doesn't have some sort of twist to it. I really liked the catacomb I think in Liurnia where there are falling blade traps trying to kill you, and you actually have to use one as an elevator by standing on top of it after it falls to progress. I've seen some people suggest getting rid of them and adding like one more mid-sized dungeon per region instead, but I think that would have the side effect of making the open world feel more barren than it does now. DeathChicken posted:Breath of the Wild also throws *so many* weapons at you (even if most of them suck) that you're practically never unarmed. And in the event you are you have magic. That complaint always felt weird The thing that was always hard to argue with was people conflating the weapon durability in BotW with the weapon durability in... well, something like Dark Souls, where you probably have one or two main weapons that you need to remember to keep repaired, but repairing them also doesn't really cost anything meaningful so there's no resource management element to it. I think one of the things with BotW weapons is that people treated finding a weapon like finding a new piece of equipment in an RPG, but because they were always temporary, it felt bad to them that they didn't get to keep their fancy loot. It led to people saying they didn't think finding weapons felt like a reward at all. But weapons aren't equipment--they're resources. And finding more resources in a game with a resource management element is a reward. It's kind of a weird mental switch you have to flip so I understand people finding it jarring, I guess.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:34
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Just when you’re starting to feel the same-iness of the overworld dungeons, you step into Gaol Cave.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:34
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DeathChicken posted:Breath of the Wild also throws *so many* weapons at you (even if most of them suck) that you're practically never unarmed. And in the event you are you have magic. That complaint always felt weird My complaint was never, "Oh I'm all out of weapons, what bad design" My complaint was always, "Cycling through my inventory every encounter isn't fun" and also "Converting gear into what is essentially a consumable isn't fun and I don't feel any semblance of a reward for killing hard things or a sense of excitement from finding a good weapon" Like when you're playing Pokemon and you find a Health Potion in a bush and you throw it on your pile of health potions that maybe you'll use eventually. That's what BOTW did with weapons. They're just consumables you throw into your backpack. That isn't cool or fun or exciting or any other positive word, in my book.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:35
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I don't have a problem with the enemy reuse but it's bad when they just drop two of the same lovely boss you've fought before into a small arena and oops it's the hardest fight in the entire series for melee STR builds unless you want to spec into the broken stuff which will trivialize the rest of the game. Overall I love this game but it definitely needs a couple balance passes especially endgame. That's really my only complaint.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:37
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my complaint with botw weapons was never even "ah life is fleeting, all possessions are ephemeral in the grand scheme of knowledge" durability, it was weapon damage didn't ramp up in parity with enemy hp so while you went from weapons doing 10 points of damage a hit to 60-70 at the end of the game, enemies went from having 300 health to 3000 health in their ramped up variants
Cowcaster fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Mar 7, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2022 20:37
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mistermojo posted:Ranni's quest was ridiculously elaborate. and seems to be the only way to access a whole DLCs worth of zones and bosses You can access it from Deeproot Depths, through a waygate. So the whole thing is simply accessible after Radahn without doing her quest
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Mar 7, 2022 20:38
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Weapons breaking was bad. You'll notice that Elden Ring, a good game, doesn't do that. I mean, I think weapons breaking was bad I hope this becomes the open world game that every open word game gets compared to from now on so I never have to hear about BOTW ever again
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Mar 7, 2022 20:40
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Elden Ring is BOTW if it were a good game instead of just okay
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Mar 7, 2022 20:40
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I love flails. Bleed rules. Flails rule. I do wish I hadn't bothered upgrading the basic-rear end Flail to +6 before I found the Nightrider Flail though. But it's great for my Str\DEX build. I will never get tired of the charging heavy attack on horseback, whirling it around into a massive fuckin uppercut. Two big-bads down and I'm dipping into the north and east on-and-off, level 62, and it's just all so goddamn good. Here's a question: the wiki has quote-text descriptions of enemies. Where are they getting this text? There are some good lore-bits in them, but I'll be hosed if I know where to find them in-game. EDIT: Elden Ring is Better Dragon's Dogma Squiggle fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Mar 7, 2022 |
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Mar 7, 2022 20:41
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Macaluso posted:Weapons breaking was bad. You'll notice that Elden Ring, a good game, doesn't do that. RBA Starblade posted:Elden Ring is BOTW if it were a good game instead of just okay 
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Mar 7, 2022 20:41
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Cowcaster posted:my complaint with botw weapons was never even "ah life is fleeting, all possessions are ephemeral in the grand scheme of knowledge" durability, it was weapon damage didn't ramp up in parity with enemy hp so while you went from weapons doing 10 points of damage to hit to 60-70 at the end of the game enemies went from having 300 health to 3000 health in their ramped up variants Yep, this one I agree with. It meant high-damage weapons became extremely necessary which understandably led to players farming up inventories full of them, which I don't think was really the intended loop. I think this happens at least partially because of the way defense works for Link's armor and the fact that enemies deal the same damage with weapons that Link does. Your defense stat is completely linear--if you take 30 damage (6 hearts) but you have 26 defense, you only took 4 damage (1 heart). That means late-game weapon damage scales up hard so it can keep up with the player's defense (which can get up to like 60+) but then enemy HP also has to scale up really hard to keep up with weapon damage. It's an unfortunate feedback loop, I think, and there are ways that loop could be broken but I'm not a game designer so I'm not even 100% sure I've diagnosed the problem correctly, that's just what makes sense to me from playing way too much BotW.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:42
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elden ring is botw but more focused on combat and botw is elden ring but more focused on adventure and that's okay.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:42
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RBA Starblade posted:Elden Ring is BOTW if it were a good game instead of just okay Elden Ring is a great game to play while we wait for the better game BOTW2
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Mar 7, 2022 20:42
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Weapon durability felt bad in older Souls games because there was no actual gameplay attached to it. I think there was supposed to be in DS2 with durability being much lower across the board (you were probably supposed to need to keep a backup weapon) but that didn't really end up happening. In DS1 and Bloodborne for example, it was just a thing you had to remember to spend a negligible amount of souls/echoes on sometimes. It never really felt like something that mattered, it was just kind of there. Getting rid of it in Elden Ring was absolutely the right decision.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:43
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Gamerofthegame posted:elden ring is botw but more focused on combat and botw is elden ring but more focused on adventure Except there is a million times more adventure in Elden Ring when you do a head to head.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:44
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i mean if we went back to the old "weapon skills cast from durablity" from souls 1 that would end up being an elegant solution for moonveil and hoarfrost spam
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Mar 7, 2022 20:44
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I do miss being able to break people's stuff in pvp just to be a nuisance
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Mar 7, 2022 20:45
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What game had that stupid sword or pike stuck in a rock and it was poo poo all around but if you used it enough and brought the durability low enough it would break and become good
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Mar 7, 2022 20:48
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Side note but I just want to note how happy I was to see the loving basilisks came back in this. Like they're the same stupid fuckers as always, right down to the big fake eyes on their heads. I really wasn't expecting to see a very Dark Souls enemy type just come back completely the same but there they are lol I hate the fuckers but in the way that makes me go "ah these fuckin' guys lmao"
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Mar 7, 2022 20:48
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Mailer posted:The fact that they get dramatically called out in the intro makes them seem like they'd be bosses, but they're just... I guess more famous tarnished? Like Rogier and Nepheli specifically state they lost their guidance but if all the residents of the roundtable are technically on the same path you are they really need to get on the ball. I only just killed Godfrey so maybe this comes up later in the story but you'd figure me being the first guy to kill a boss and get their shard would put me on all of their hit lists. We're all competing for the same thing. Or maybe they're just waiting for me to do all the dirty work and they all figure they can be the ones to kill me and snatch them all before the others do. Maybe this is what the story is, I'm not far enough to know yet.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:48
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sloppy portmanteau posted:So after bashing my head against everyone's favorite, Radhan, for a good 3 hours, I decided to switch from my trusty claymore to a blood ashed uchigatana. I could only get it up to a +13 and even with all-in on strength build he simply melted. I was 1 hit away from killing him on the first try, and got him on the second. I was very puzzled when I fought him after reading all the complaining in this thread and elsewhere. I killed him in my third try, after figuring out arrows and meteor. Turns out powerstancing katanas is pretty much the perfect build for him. Just stand at his legs while he's busy hitting the summons and start doing the anime twirls. He absolutely melts to bleed. He was at like 20% before going into the meteor thing, and this is as a mostly int-focused build. A proper dex build can probably skip that phase altogether.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:49
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Retro Hippy posted:I don't have a problem with the enemy reuse but it's bad when they just drop two of the same lovely boss you've fought before into a small arena and oops it's the hardest fight in the entire series for melee STR builds unless you want to spec into the broken stuff which will trivialize the rest of the game. This is where I'm at. I'm in Consecrated Ground now, and I'm not having as much fun as I was early game because the balance is weird. Even at 110+, getting two shot by trash mobs while trying to go somewhere isn't very fun and is discouraging me from doing all the fun exploring I did early on. It's like they flipped a switch around the capital to turn the back third of the game into a more traditional Souls game. I'm sure some will like that, but it's turned me off a bit. I want to find the other secret areas and finish all the shard people, but I also kind of just want the game to be done so I can see the endings. It wouldn't be an issue at all if I could always summon people, but if I push too much higher, I think it's going to be hard to find anyone for co-op since that's what's always happened to me in Souls games before. I'm already waiting a long time in front of Margott before I get a call, assuming the game doesn't crash in the process right now. Which isn't to say it's a terrible experience since this is probably already my GOTY, but there's definitely a shift towards endgame that will turn off more casual players like me who have relied on just leveling above everything if they don't do some balance stuff. "Go do other stuff and level" is great early on but it's not so great when you're at a point where your level doesn't seem to matter to mobs anymore and you're slowly getting more and more narrow in co-op range.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:49
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Cowcaster posted:i mean if we went back to the old "weapon skills cast from durablity" from souls 1 that would end up being an elegant solution for moonveil and hoarfrost spam
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Mar 7, 2022 20:50
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berenzen posted:You can access it from Deeproot Depths, through a waygate. So the whole thing is simply accessible after Radahn without doing her quest really, even the part that you get to through a portal in her tower after the blade? well thats good then because it was some good stuff
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Mar 7, 2022 20:51
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Axel Serenity posted:Which isn't to say it's a terrible experience since this is probably already my GOTY, but there's definitely a shift towards endgame that will turn off more casual players like me who have relied on just leveling above everything if they don't do some balance stuff. "Go do other stuff and level" is great early on but it's not so great when you're at a point where your level doesn't seem to matter to mobs anymore and you're slowly getting more and more narrow in co-op range. I feel like right now the balance seems to be "go do other stuff and level" for most of the game, and then for the very end, "go find a weapon art that fucks these guys up, leveling won't help you anymore" Endgame area bullshit is a lot more manageable if you have a weapon art like Blasphemous Blade's that just does a 1500+ damage in a huge AoE whenever you press L2. I do wonder if that's the intended balance but it's sorta how it's working out.
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Mar 7, 2022 20:54
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Mailer posted:Margit will hold his stick up in the air while you walk circles around him for a comically long amount of time before giving up. There's several enemies with similar go-up-to-you-and-slam attacks that can hold them for a decent range. Enemies don't do any "input reading" mid-combo, they just adapt based on your range. So they won't keep swinging a 5-hit combo after you roll out of range and let you get free ranged attacks in. Either they'll stop the combo outright (and maybe start up the next attack), or they'll transition into a longer-ranged variant of the combo like a lunging stab for the last hit. Some bosses will also transition from a ranged attack combo into a melee-range one if you roll up close. They also often have combos that are like "sometimes 4 hits, sometimes 5 hits" that they just randomly choose between, so you have to be careful and watch to see if they start up the last hit before going for your attack. The bosses aren't input reading here, they're just picking randomly, but if you don't expect the third hit it'll feel like they predicted and punished you. The only actual input reading is specific moves that they use to punish flask chugging in neutral, and that only happens if they're not already in the middle of an attack. Maybe they use these for spellcasts too? idk
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Mar 7, 2022 20:54
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Volte posted:Would it? You could just stack unlimited repair items as opposed to having a limited number of FP flasks. Having Hoarfrost and Moonveil take like 10x more FP would be the most obvious "solution" but I don't think those things really need solutions. i wasn't considering the existence of repair items a thing, just a "touch grace"
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