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I guess the main difference between Russia and USA for us down here is that none of us suffered though a dictatorship promoted and supported by Russia (except maybe Venezuela?) Also when the USA does what the USA always does, here or elsewhere, there world dont get all riled up like that, noone gets expelled from sports events and such and the mainstream press will mostly publish whatever the american goverment is saying. So is usually just another tuesday, some people say "yeah they should not be doing that. war is bad" and life goes on Im sincerely a bit baffled of how radically Russia was unanimously condemned and isolated Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Mar 3, 2022 |
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Mar 3, 2022 16:10
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Elias_Maluco posted:I guess the main difference between Russia and USA for us down here is that none of us suffered though a dictatorship promoted and supported by Russia (except maybe Venezuela?) Cuba?
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Mar 3, 2022 16:45
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jiggerypokery posted:Cuba? Even Canada still trades with them, it’s why we have the classic story of Americans trying to smuggle cigars back over the border. Also, Cuba was never once as much of a dictatorship post revolution as it was pre revolution.
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Mar 3, 2022 16:58
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Nucleic Acids posted:Even Canada still trades with them, it’s why we have the classic story of Americans trying to smuggle cigars back over the border.
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Mar 3, 2022 17:03
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Grouchio posted:The Castro regime was less authoritarian than the Batista regime preceding it? Do tell more. Considering it brought actual prosperity to the Cuban people despite being hamstrung by an undeclared war by the United States, and has a democratic communist system, it was.
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Mar 3, 2022 17:05
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Noted tankie and Castroist traitor Senator John F Kennedy posted:Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years ... and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state—destroying every individual liberty. Yet our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror. Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista—hailed him as a staunch ally and a good friend—at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections.
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Mar 3, 2022 18:52
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I think the main thing is that the cold war is over and has been over for decades at this point. Countries haven't been trying to align themselves into mutually exclusive power blocs, that hasn't been the way the world works for a while. The old first/second/third world designations are archaic by this point. Without the cold war framework, what's happening is that countries are more free to take events in a vacuum and respond to them accordingly. Also worth noting that while Mexico is playing it safe economically by not issuing sanctions, it's still thrown in with the bulk of countries around the world by politically condemning Russia at the UN. https://news.yahoo.com/141-countries-vote-condemn-russia-171706406.html No latin american countries voted no, and of the 3 abstainers, I understand Cuba and Nicaragua, but I'm not sure of Bolivia's deal. The only thing I could find was something apparently saying that Evo Morales buys into the idea that Ukraine seeking to join NATO was an act of aggression on NATO's part worthy of invading? Weird. https://en.mercopress.com/2022/03/03/bolivian-gov-t-and-evo-do-not-see-ukraine-crisis-the-same-way
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Mar 3, 2022 19:02
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im sincerely a bit baffled of how radically Russia was unanimously condemned and isolated It's because this is the first war since god knows when where no one believes the invaders are correcting some sort of evil. America at least has the good sense to bomb tinpot dictators who no one ever genuinely liked, but the worst you can say about Ukraine is that their democracy is somewhat dysfunctional. No one outside Russia has ever bought into the nazi nuke garbage
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Mar 3, 2022 19:05
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Grouchio posted:The Castro regime was less authoritarian than the Batista regime preceding it? Do tell more. Batista was bad enough that a lot of people who would later go on to be fervently anti-communist supported Castro against him. The US took a lot of refugees from Batista before Castro came along. Although I guess how those people turned against Castro may reflect more on him personally than their feelings on the ideology.
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Mar 3, 2022 19:21
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think the main thing is that the cold war is over and has been over for decades at this point. Countries haven't been trying to align themselves into mutually exclusive power blocs, that hasn't been the way the world works for a while. The old first/second/third world designations are archaic by this point. Without the cold war framework, what's happening is that countries are more free to take events in a vacuum and respond to them accordingly. It doesn't seem that strange considering the United States had him removed from office via a coup and nearly killed if AMLO hadn't gotten him out of Bolivia, and that we continued expanding NATO (an institution that has never once brought anything good to Latin America) past Germany after the cold war ended. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 3, 2022 |
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Mar 3, 2022 19:21
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Elias_Maluco posted:Im sincerely a bit baffled of how radically Russia was unanimously condemned and isolated I think the west has been tripping over its dick for two years with its covid response and an opportunity to look unified and strong against an external threat is hugely appealing.
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Mar 3, 2022 19:45
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the only country with the soft-power and economic connections to get away with this kind of aggression is the US, and even the US sees its reputation seriously suffer when it does something like this. outright invading sovereign countries in europe hasn't been a thing for decades, and even compared to the soviet interventions in '56 and '68 this is harsh. even the US in latin america has mostly shifted to lawfare, elite capture and underhanded tricks to maintain its domination nobody who's weaker than anybody likes this kind of behaviour, and the list of countries which don't much care is very small (india, china, the USA and the EU, basically). when the two latter powers are on the opposite side, you're left with condemnation from just about everybody who doesn't owe you a huge favour
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Mar 3, 2022 20:57
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Nucleic Acids posted:Considering it brought actual prosperity to the Cuban people despite being hamstrung by an undeclared war by the United States, and has a democratic communist system, it was. Actual prosperity is an extremely strong take.
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Mar 3, 2022 23:54
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Grouchio posted:The Castro regime was less authoritarian than the Batista regime preceding it? Do tell more. Are you lost?
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Mar 4, 2022 00:38
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jiggerypokery posted:Actual prosperity is an extremely strong take. The quality of life was demonstrably improved with Castro, at least for a time before the USSR fell.
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Mar 4, 2022 00:42
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It's up now again isn't it? Though they did have an extremely hard decade plus after fall of soviet union and no longer having a nation to sell them oil supplies. Once Chavez came along they had a new trading partner and things improved. Probably why America tried to have him deposed in a coup.
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Mar 4, 2022 01:20
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cuba's in a weird place because the present situation is obviously not sustainable (houses are starting to fall apart) but the only alternative is locked in as incredibly punitive and so they're stuck in a weird sort of limbo standards of living aren't terrible, especially considering the circumstances, but they're also not great
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Mar 4, 2022 01:26
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I saw a documentary of a guy who went to visit them over the decades. You can see they built all this new housing, improved schools and hospitals, when Castro came to power and really improved things for the masses. But then it gets to the 00s the apartments are the same ones built way back and falling apart, the hospitals are stuck using modern tech for the 60s. It really seems the blockade is holding them back. A shame considering even with the short resources they manage to have a world class pharma industry and developed their own covid vaccine for the developing world.
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Mar 4, 2022 01:38
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They've done groundbreaking unconventional cancer research as well thanks to the embargo nonsense
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Mar 4, 2022 04:04
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brugroffil posted:They've done groundbreaking unconventional cancer research as well thanks to the embargo nonsense And they developed their own vaccine like holy gently caress. Marenghi posted:I saw a documentary of a guy who went to visit them over the decades. For anyone that wants to know what documentary this is, it's called Cuba and the Cameraman. It gives a glimpse into the life of people in Cuba although it doesn't go into too much depth about the underlying factors.
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Mar 4, 2022 06:46
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I've always thought the US would, for better or worse, gain more influence in Cuba by dropping sanctions than whatever the idiots responsible for their continuation think they're gaining from keeping them up.
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Mar 4, 2022 15:59
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I've always thought the US would, for better or worse, gain more influence in Cuba by dropping sanctions than whatever the idiots responsible for their continuation think they're gaining from keeping them up. They don't care what the people actually living in Cuba think. Their purpose is to eventually replace the slaves that the gusanos want back.
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Mar 4, 2022 16:26
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I've always thought the US would, for better or worse, gain more influence in Cuba by dropping sanctions than whatever the idiots responsible for their continuation think they're gaining from keeping them up. Any president that drops the sanctions will be tarred and feathered as the one who "surrendered" to the commies. And at this point keeping them up is a tool for inner politics, i.e pleasing the conservative gusano voter bloc in a swing state.
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Mar 4, 2022 17:35
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There isn't actually a foreign policy goal by this point, there's just a vague impression that the embargo is still popular with refugees and children of refugees, who are still somehow considered a crucial political block in national politics for whatever reason, despite Floridian politics having been hosed for decades. And since the US economy is so big and strong, it can just leave the embargo there through political inertia. I don't know if there's much that could even really be done on Cuba's side to normalize relations, although since the embargo affects Cuba way more than it affects the US, it seems like Cuba would have to be the one to initiate negotiations for them to get anywhere.
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Mar 4, 2022 17:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They don't care what the people actually living in Cuba think. Their purpose is to eventually replace the slaves that the gusanos want back. Yes, and they could probably accomplish this so much faster without the sanctions (not that they should be able to at all, but that isn't my point). That's why I called them idiots.
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Mar 4, 2022 18:57
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i do think it's interesting in the seemingly unrelenting march of neoliberal capitalism, the hospitality industry should have had enough influence to end the embargo and push for investment on the island and they clearly do not. the embargo is illogical from a profit standpoint and is therefore untenable long-term
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Mar 4, 2022 20:08
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They don't care what the people actually living in Cuba think. Their purpose is to eventually replace the slaves that the gusanos want back. No matter how far the standard of living would collapse and how any people would be forced into utter destitution.
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Mar 4, 2022 20:38
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Nucleic Acids posted:No matter how far the standard of living would collapse and how any people would be forced into utter destitution. You say that like that's not the absolutely desired outcome. Going full neoliberal kleptocracy IS the goal.
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Mar 5, 2022 05:02
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I feel like this needs to be posted here. https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1500230617404956678?t=y1BAsUoAQjO_6AxpQMCqtA&s=19 https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1500635803797843970 Where could this lead? Will it even go anywhere? Who knows.
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Mar 7, 2022 18:29
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SlothfulCobra posted:I feel like this needs to be posted here. They realized that Maduro is literally exactly the neoliberal kleptocrat that I've said for a long while it is, and that the US actually have no ideological reason to truly oppose him (other than, you know, he's a murderous dictator who regularly jails and assassinates political enemies and civilians, but that's standard fare for the US), since now that PDVSA is bankrupt he'll give US companies concessions anyway? A close friend went back to Venezuela from Chile and described Caracas to me as something completely bizarre. There's nowhere near as many people, everything is in dollars, and whoever has those dollars lives basically like they do in Miami. Anybody who doesn't, is living day to day on CLAP boxes or on whatever money family abroad can spare. There's these bodegones everywhere that just stock American food straight from Florida. Whatever was left of the idea that Venezuela was a socialist country has pretty thoroughly been abandoned.
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Mar 7, 2022 19:46
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But, but the Grayzone said it's a successful socialist country because in Caracas you can buy craft beer in dollars!
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Mar 7, 2022 21:40
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fnox posted:They realized that Maduro is literally exactly the neoliberal kleptocrat that I've said for a long while it is, and that the US actually have no ideological reason to truly oppose him (other than, you know, he's a murderous dictator who regularly jails and assassinates political enemies and civilians, but that's standard fare for the US), since now that PDVSA is bankrupt he'll give US companies concessions anyway? The USA is fine with murderous dictators and autocrats, so it can't be that. I think they just don't trust Maduro at the end of the day, not because of any corruption or violence, but because he's unpredictable. One day he starts picking a fight with Colombia, the other he talks a price drop with Russia or Iran. Other pet US-sphere thugs usually just pile up their millions and jail/torture dissenters. Maduro has regional ambitions. I suspect any deal struck here will implode even faster than the Iran Nuclear Deal as soon as Biden dies/loses. Hell, maybe it gets tossed right after the midterms.
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Mar 7, 2022 22:00
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quarantinethepast posted:But, but the Grayzone said it's a successful socialist country because in Caracas you can buy craft beer in dollars! As a frequent international traveler I literally laughed out loud when I saw that segment. fnox posted:They realized that Maduro is literally exactly the neoliberal kleptocrat that I've said for a long while it is, and that the US actually have no ideological reason to truly oppose him (other than, you know, he's a murderous dictator who regularly jails and assassinates political enemies and civilians, but that's standard fare for the US), since now that PDVSA is bankrupt he'll give US companies concessions anyway? I'm curious fnox, what are your thoughts on Hugo Chavez?
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Mar 7, 2022 22:01
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Sephyr posted:The USA is fine with murderous dictators and autocrats, so it can't be that. He does not have regional ambitions beyond the fact that the entire region, left or right, hates him for creating the largest mass migration in the region's modern history. He's pretty predictable so long as you realize that he's long abandoned any ambitions to be ideologically consistent. Maduro simply wants to cling to power, because that way the Flores family stays at the top, siphoning billions of dollars in oil revenue in such a blatant capacity that it would've made even the worst adeco or copeyano blush. Before the sanctions? They were selling Venezuelan bonds to Goldman Sachs, with huge collaterals. Maduro quietly reprivatized a lot of the oil industry and abandoned a lot of key Chavez economic policies in a, well, pretty predictable move to normalize the economy. We've always known that some of the largest pain points for the Venezuelan economy were its completely deranged monetary policy, and with it gone to allow the dollar to de facto take over, he can drop a lot of the pretences, and focus on keeping his hold to power through escape valves for the nouveau riche. punk rebel ecks posted:I'm curious fnox, what are your thoughts on Hugo Chavez? So I mean, I spent what like, 15 years or more of my life with Chavez being in the spotlight and permanently in my awareness, I'm way overexposed to him, so forgive me if I don't have the reverence for him that a lot of leftists do. Even before his eyes and likeness were plastered on every other corner in Caracas, he was still on TV in some form or another nearly 24/7 and nearly any discussion of the country revolved around him. If you think Trump was exhausting, picture that but just, never ending. Chavez was emblematic of a lot of other Venezuelan leaders. Charismatic, witty, funny. Venezuela has something called "chalequeo", this near constant bullying of everyone around you as a way to sort of level everyone out, keeping everyone humble by making fun of them. Chavez had an uncanny ability to be nearly immune to most attempts to make fun of him (he did get rid of the wart on his face, although considering what he died from, maybe it was cancer after all), and he was able to deftly insult anybody who opposed him, which was enough for him to shut down nearly any detractor. I'm reminded of how he completely shrugged off an attempt from Maria Corina Machado to incite him to a debate by saying "aguila no caza moscas". He had a very distinctive speech and cadence, and was very eloquent and well spoken, and I think it's his wit specifically that made him popular across social strata. Now, as for his actual policy, I don't think "socialism of the 21st century" really meant anything. I've always seen Chavismo as a fundamentally confused ideology, with tons of glaring contradictions, but I think this is by design. Chavez was obviously a populist, that's not even meant to be derisive, that's just an accurate description of how he got elected, he managed to capture disillusioned voters after bipartisanship (referred to in country as "puntofijismo" after the Pact of Punto Fijo) led the country to ruin and to the economic disasters of the 90s. I don't think he was a socialist really. I don't even think he was particularly effective anti-imperialist, seeing how even after his death, the Venezuelan oil industry remained deeply connected to refineries in the US and the US financial system. I think he was just very good at finding the right words for the right audience. For one, I think a lot of people in this forum aren't aware what he actually did do. A lot of the things that people attribute to him, like the nationalization of oil, free education and healthcare, that was actually all there way before him. There were billions of dollars he allocated to public works that never ever completed, things like the Tocoma Dam, the Guarenas Guatire metro and the general expansion of the Caracas Metro. Most of the physicians from Cuba he brought as part of Mision Barrio Adentro didn't actually stay, leaving behind unfinished and unusable infrastructure. Most of the "missions" led to the same result, they bypassed existing, more complicated systems with simpler but more short term solutions. It didn't solve the root of the problems those systems faced, and were largely more expensive to run. Its unsurprising that most of the metrics he managed to reduce completely reverted after a year or two of Maduro's rule. I think the only "mission" still standing is Mision Vivienda, and well if you've heard of Alex Saab, you'd know that it is by far one of the largest sources of embezzled money left in the country. Then there's his most obvious, largest fault, which is the corruption he enabled. I think at some point after the coup, he realized he couldn't play ball with the old money, so he had to replace them with "new money". Bribes got completely out of control as a lot of the wealth extracted from elites of the 4th Republic ended up in the hands of the elites of the 5th. The bolibourgeoise came to dominate the country, and unlike at least some of the old money, they couldn't really claim any sort of merit to their wealth. They simply were friends of Chavez. It created the conditions for someone like Maduro to rise. Corruption was bad before, but it got so much worse with him. I guess one thing I can't fault him on is his insistence on spreading and conserving Venezuelan culture that had for years been overshadowed by foreign influences. In that regard, yeah, Chavez was great, he really did bring a cultural renaissance to the country. He was probably one of the few Venezuelan presidents to actually give a poo poo about indigenous peoples and their rights. Shame about Maduro killing them and selling their land to foreigners though.
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Mar 7, 2022 23:43
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Great write up fnox. Thank you.
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Mar 7, 2022 23:58
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I was listening to an episode of this podcast El Hilo talking about the effect of the Ruso-Ukrainian war on Latin america. There's a few important details to note: - Russia has made important ties with countries throughout the region in terms of vaccines and trade, regardless of ideology, with the leftist Alberto Fernández of Argentina and Bolsonaro of Brazil recently meeting in person with Putin in Russia. This has led to a tepid response by Latin countries to the Russian invasion, with some countries condemning the invasion but not imposing sanctions or breaking off trade. - Venezuela, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Bolivia have developed more intimate relationships with Russia, and some have made statements of public support for Russia's claims to self-defense. This has reaped some benefits for them. Venezuela has received investment, Russian military advisors to train their military, and Russian troops to service military equipment. Bolivia and Russia are collaborating in the construction of nuclear reactors. Nicaragua has a Russian base for satellites. - The sanctions may provide an opportunity for Latin America, for example if oil exporters like Mexico and Venezuela can fill the gap in Russian petroleum or if other countries can provide raw materials like wheat. Latin America could present itself as an alternative provider for resources for Europe and Asia.
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Mar 8, 2022 07:42
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Also that Brazilian politician that made creepy-rear end statements about Ukrainian women, saying "they're easy because they're poor", may be about to lose his job (google translate for English). The founder of do Val's party MBL is not pleased. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Mar 8, 2022 |
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Mar 8, 2022 08:25
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quarantinethepast posted:Also that Brazilian politician that made creepy-rear end statements about Ukrainian women, saying "they're easy because they're poor", may be about to lose his job (google translate for English). Between that and his party colleague Kim Kataguiri openyl defending the creation of a brazilian nazi party last month, the media darlings of the brazilian libertarian renaissance from a few years back have gone mask-off quite fast. Maake no mistake, though. His fans and voters do not care. He lost less followers over this than when he soft-broke with Bolsonaro about a year ago, due to bozo's low popularity numbers. And it's a bit disheartening how they have spent YEARS making GBS threads on and mocking brown people, women and other local punching bags, holding guns and promising to wipe out the libs, while being hailed as 'controversial' new kids on the block, but the second they offend blue-eyed ukrainians pr jewish people the hammer swings down instantly. Not all victims are born equal and all that.
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Mar 8, 2022 13:48
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fnox posted:The bolibourgeoise came to dominate the country, and unlike at least some of the old money, they couldn't really claim any sort of merit to their wealth. Wait what, how can "old money" claim any sort of merit to their wealth, the literal definition of old money is inherited money ie money that came to them because of their genes and their last name. Someone whose money was made in their lifetime (the only money that could be argued to come from 'merit' in some cases) is new money, can't be old money by definition
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Mar 9, 2022 15:46
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Sephyr posted:party colleague Kim Kataguiri I know he takes pride in his revacholian identity but binoclards don't make good fascists
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Mar 9, 2022 20:41
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