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Hieronymous Alloy posted:~ish. Can't really agree with this. A lot of the Russian equipment showing up here is absolutely brand new technology. The T-72B3 variants getting blown up left and right now *are* a T-72 variant, but one with composite armor developed in the 2000-2010's, current generation infrared/NV sensors and fire control systems, and current gen reactive armor slapped all over them. The most common variant getting destroyed and captured is actually the 2016 modernization of this tank, with the newest ERA package and various other improvements. The T-72B3 *is* the new hotness tank meant to serve as the core of Russian armor until whenever the Armata stop breaking down on the parade ground and get built in any sort of useful numbers. Then you've got the T-90A which is a very similar T-72 variant based on upgraded late 90's tech including the loving worthless but super hyped Shtora-1 countermeasure system (which is meant to counter laser beam-riding missiles that are not very common). After that you have the T-80U's which are upgraded 80's tech, and the brand spanking new T-80BVM which is basically the T-72B3 package stuck on a rebuilt T-80B. The old stuff is actually pretty rare to see getting blown up at this point - though it's showing up this week with stuff like the old T-72As! But it turns out the whole top attack concept pioneered by NATO in the 80's is a really good idea that really does defeat a tank designed to protect itself against not-top-attack threats for the simple reason that you cannot heavily armor every part of the tank. You want a tank that isn't just absolutely defenseless against poo poo thrown at it from the front? You want it to be reasonably small and not collapse bridges? You want it to be able to drive off a road and not sink instantly into the topsoil? Well, that poo poo isn't going to have much armor on the sides, rear, or roof, or floor. The warhead that blows through 900mm of steel actually gives no fucks about the super advanced Putonium ERA stuck to the top of a tank when the turret roof under it is only 60mm thick. It gives no fucks about your big IR flashlights stuck to the front of the turret. It definitely gives no fucks about the flimsy sunroof you constructed on top of it all. All of Russian armor advances made in the last 30 years are being handily defeated by the concept of "just go over the armor".
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Mar 11, 2022 05:16
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gay picnic defence posted:Are the tories still refusing to sanction their oligarch donors? Yes and also they call you racist if you act like money has a provenance.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:16
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Deteriorata posted:Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian. I hope this never stops 
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Mar 11, 2022 05:16
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Eric Cantonese posted:I figured during wartime it was because silk and nylon all went to parachutes and other military uses. That's correct. A pair of real nylon stockings in occupied europe in 44 would have been priceless. I even think they included nylon stockings in air force survival kits.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:18
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Deteriorata posted:Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian. You love to see it.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:18
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Deteriorata posted:Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian. I've been using this thread as my source of info because I cannot take American media so thank you for posting this every night. Gives me hope every night as I go off to bed. 
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Mar 11, 2022 05:21
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https://twitter.com/M_Simonyan/status/1501950124146126856?cxt=HHwWkMCrwcTr_9cpAAAA Head of RT with song lyrics: "Tell the truth Europeans. Russians are the new Jews. Throw us in the oven."
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Mar 11, 2022 05:22
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tomapot posted:I've been using this thread as my source of info because I cannot take American media so thank you for posting this every night. Gives me hope every night as I go off to bed. I tried watching some US news streams when the war started, but half the news was about a bear called Hank the Tank. Is that fella still a thing?
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Mar 11, 2022 05:23
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the popes toes posted:https://twitter.com/M_Simonyan/status/1501950124146126856?cxt=HHwWkMCrwcTr_9cpAAAA To those that don't speak Russian: she didn't use "Jews". She used the slur.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:24
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the popes toes posted:https://twitter.com/M_Simonyan/status/1501950124146126856?cxt=HHwWkMCrwcTr_9cpAAAA Ahhh we are at the "compare ourselves to victims of the Holocaust" portion of the chud cycle 
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Mar 11, 2022 05:25
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Trump posted:I tried watching some US news streams when the war started, but half the news was about a bear called Hank the Tank. He turned out to be three bears.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:25
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https://twitter.com/ScottMStedman/status/1502137068486475779 Somewhat concerning.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:26
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Can someone link that tweet that was posted earlier that explained what the Ukraine bio facilities were actually for?
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Mar 11, 2022 05:27
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Nitrousoxide posted:He turned out to be three bears. And Russia turned out to be a drunk skunk sleeping in your trashcan, fitting I suppose
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Mar 11, 2022 05:27
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Trump posted:That's correct. A pair of real nylon stockings in occupied europe in 44 would have been priceless. I even think they included nylon stockings in air force survival kits. It was one of the things they listed in Dr. Strangelove so it's definitely true! 
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Mar 11, 2022 05:28
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Deteriorata posted:Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian. 
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Mar 11, 2022 05:28
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Deteriorata posted:Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian. Best post of the day.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:29
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Xotl posted:The new Polish communist government wanted it as part of the border adjustments post-WWII that gave it most of East Prussia but Stalin put in a claim on it as early as the Tehran conference in 1943 and the Western Allies agreed it could become Soviet territory. At this point changing that would be as legitimate as changing any other elements of the post-WWII border revisions. No one wants to open that can of worms, especially since ethnically the oblast is now 85%+ Russian and Russia wants to keep it. Recognise its independence and help it to reform its economy so that Kaliningrad can one day become a part of EU.  There's already more than twice that many ethnic Russians in the Baltic republics!
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Mar 11, 2022 05:30
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lightrook posted:It was one of the things they listed in Dr. Strangelove so it's definitely true! Ah, that's where my dumbass got it from.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:30
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Trump posted:That's correct. A pair of real nylon stockings in occupied europe in 44 would have been priceless. I even think they included nylon stockings in air force survival kits. Those old timey nylons had a seam that ran along the back side of the leg. And nylons were super prestigious. So if you couldn't afford them, and had a night on the town, you took a makeup pencil and drew a thin straight line down the backs of both your legs. (among the stories my mother tells about those days). So yeah, priceless.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:33
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https://twitter.com/phildstewart/status/1502133579731644423
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Mar 11, 2022 05:33
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Warbadger posted:But it turns out the whole top attack concept pioneered by NATO in the 80's is a really good idea that really does defeat a tank designed to protect itself against not-top-attack threats for the simple reason that you cannot heavily armor every part of the tank. You want a tank that isn't just absolutely defenseless against poo poo thrown at it from the front? You want it to be reasonably small and not collapse bridges? You want it to be able to drive off a road and not sink instantly into the topsoil? Well, that poo poo isn't going to have much armor on the sides, rear, or roof, or floor. The warhead that blows through 900mm of steel actually gives no fucks about the super advanced Putonium ERA stuck to the top of a tank when the turret roof under it is only 60mm thick. It gives no fucks about your big IR flashlights stuck to the front of the turret. It definitely gives no fucks about the flimsy sunroof you constructed on top of it all. All of Russian armor advances made in the last 30 years are being handily defeated by the concept of "just go over the armor". As much as poo poo people gave Eric Shinseki and the Stryker program, it really got to the heart of the matter of the future of armored warfare: what you need out of armor is not something with super thick armor, because, no matter how much armor you stack on something, it's just going to eventually end up getting one-shotted versus a modern guided anti-tank weapon. Instead, you something that provides moderate protection against small arms for infantry screening; light enough that it can go anywhere your infantry go, but especially in that you can put it on a plane and be anywhere in the world within 24 hours, instead of waiting weeks for them to get shipped via oceanic transport; but still has a big gun and/or missiles, because having a big fuckin' 105mm or 120mm direct-fire cannon is enormously useful against a multitude of targets and ATGMs can pop almost all armor via top-down, precision guidance, and tandem warheads. But the most important aspect was it has to work with combined arms, because the greatest anti-tank defense armor can have is dismounted infantry and the best anti-tank weapon an infantry unit can have is other armor.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:34
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Oh this poo poo should be good and stupid My god the Russian government have actually been morons all along
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Mar 11, 2022 05:40
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Yeah I think tanks are obsolete. The theory that you can cover them with infantry seems impossible. All you need is one guy peaking it at maybe a mile away and the missile could be launched behind a rock. I dont think any reasonable amount of infantry can kill the missile target finder quick enough. You arent killing a jav team quick enough.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:42
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the popes toes posted:Those old timey nylons had a seam that ran along the back side of the leg. And nylons were super prestigious. So if you couldn't afford them, and had a night on the town, you took a makeup pencil and drew a thin straight line down the backs of both your legs. (among the stories my mother tells about those days). So yeah, priceless. Why stop with a pencil? 
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Mar 11, 2022 05:48
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the popes toes posted:Those old timey nylons had a seam that ran along the back side of the leg. And nylons were super prestigious. So if you couldn't afford them, and had a night on the town, you took a makeup pencil and drew a thin straight line down the backs of both your legs. (among the stories my mother tells about those days). So yeah, priceless. I have a book somewhere about the occupation of Denmark that has some images of instructions how to do exactly that.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:51
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BoldFace posted:https://twitter.com/ScottMStedman/status/1502137068486475779
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Mar 11, 2022 05:52
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If we’re all sharing our tactilol fart takes, I think the next big iteration that enables MBTs to continue as a thing will be sticking a laser CIWS on top to fry missiles and drones. But really, who the hell knows? What percentage of the tanks UKR is facing actually have functional ERA? The explosive inserts getting sold on the black market is a know issue, and there are twitters full of empty ERA blocks on abandoned Russian takes.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:53
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the popes toes posted:https://twitter.com/M_Simonyan/status/1501950124146126856?cxt=HHwWkMCrwcTr_9cpAAAA I mean, I think that is what the mobile crematoriums were for, wasn't it?
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Mar 11, 2022 05:56
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Natty Ninefingers posted:If we’re all sharing our tactilol fart takes, I think the next big iteration that enables MBTs to continue as a thing will be sticking a laser CIWS on top to fry missiles and drones. As predicted in hit 2000s war simulator Command and Conquer: Generals. There's definitely going to be debate about it, and I can see the argument that Ukraine is a ridiculous exception because of the amount of anti armor weaponry flowing into the country that it couldn't afford on its own.
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Mar 11, 2022 05:58
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Natty Ninefingers posted:If we’re all sharing our tactilol fart takes, I think the next big iteration that enables MBTs to continue as a thing will be sticking a laser CIWS on top to fry missiles and drones. Actually supporting with infantry would make life as an ATGM operator a lot harder as well. You'll never eliminate the threat, but you can mitigate it a lot more than what Russia seems to have done. Trump fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Mar 11, 2022 |
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Mar 11, 2022 06:00
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Small White Dragon posted:I am curious about this, I was trying to search various news sites but all the results seem fairly negative on Ukraine joining the EU quickly. "Quickly" is very relative here. It's a multi-year process. Even expedited, it won't happen before the end of this conflict. Right now it's purely a symbolic gesture to spit in Putin's face. And it's looking to the future. Full access to European markets could help enormously with rebuilding Ukraine. And having open borders with the countries taking in the most refugees will also help with reuniting families.
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Mar 11, 2022 06:02
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Trump posted:Actually supporting with infantry would make life as an ATGM operator a lot harder as well. You'll never eliminate the threat, but you can mitigate it a lot more than what Russia seems to have done. Yeah unless the propaganda's good enough to make someone willingly trade their own life in exchange for one tank infantry screens mean the guy with the ATGM is going to pick their shots very carefully
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Mar 11, 2022 06:10
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Right now it's purely a symbolic gesture to spit in Putin's face. Not sure how concrete it is, but it does affect the negotiations. It pre-emps, or tries to, the demand to not join a western bloc since it's now a fait accompli. I think it strengthen's Ze's hand at the table. It leaves "no NATO" as a point that both sides can agree upon, however shambolic that might be.
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Mar 11, 2022 06:15
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Morrow posted:There's definitely going to be debate about it, and I can see the argument that Ukraine is a ridiculous exception because of the amount of anti armor weaponry flowing into the country that it couldn't afford on its own. If a bunch of Europe are now arming up and assumable going to be stockpiling AT stuff because of this, won't that make the cost for this stuff go down quite a bit? I mean I'm sure they'll also be looking at stuff like portable AA systems, drones, and guided missiles, but I seriously can't see military now not wanting a stock pile just in case their needed, even if this seems to be best case scenario for their use.
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Mar 11, 2022 06:20
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Lead out in cuffs posted:"Quickly" is very relative here. It's a multi-year process. Even expedited, it won't happen before the end of this conflict. The news I'm reading specifically states that Ukraine is NOT getting a fast-track, there's talk of "strengthing bonds and european partnership while Ukraine pursues membership".
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Mar 11, 2022 06:22
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DarklyDreaming posted:Yeah unless the propaganda's good enough to make someone willingly trade their own life in exchange for one tank infantry screens mean the guy with the ATGM is going to pick their shots very carefully The only issue is that it needs to be a massive screen. The optics on the current Javelin work out to 2km which probably means you need to be screening almost that far in every direction from your tank. But there's a newer model in development that has an even longer range, and at that point the tank you are screening is going to be so far from the screen that it might not actually be worth having on the battlefield.
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Mar 11, 2022 06:24
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Alchenar posted:And another one: it looks like that 1st Tank Brigade holding at Chernihiv that I think we all assumed was going to be enveloped and destroyed pretty quickly might instead have wrecked the plan to surround Kiev.  CW assorted combat footage and images of battle aftermath https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1501855973069185026 https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1501898161597595654 https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1501901387113902088 https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1501981839480791054 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1501996642911895559 https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1502003028764807180 https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1502008279173677063 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1502100279428325378 Collated, primary sources yesterday show the largest single-day observed vehicle losses for the Russians in practically every theatre. It looked like the Ukrainians picked these engagements, as they show significant enemy rear element losses such as towed and self-propelled artillery, indicating successful interdiction of viable routes and/or Russian forces being overrun in certain situations, while also having the media apparatus in place to record the combat actions, so all in all it would appear they committed to a general counteroffensive in an effort to break up the suspected impending large Russian force movements. With most of these counterattacks being in the Northern direction, it would seem the Russian force planners looking to take Kyiv got the exact opposite fighting day they were looking for: previously assessed open routes were contested, the encirclement of Chernihiv might've been broken outright, and attempts to approach Kyiv from the East got mulched. It was likely dearly bought, but here Ukraine is showing a level of successful operational and logistical planning that has so far been utterly lacking in the Russian side. It wouldn't be surprising if so given the level of Russian combat losses, but whether or not these engagements will translate to territorial counter-seizures remains to be seen, as the Ukrainian elected strategy so far in the war focuses on degrading Russian combat power via kinetic, logistics, and cultural means, without necessarily prioritizing territory unless it's for key defense of an objective or looking to silence/displace artillery involved in terror strikes. In any case, this was easily the most verifiably successful day of combat for either side and it favors the Ukrainians. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Mar 11, 2022 |
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Mar 11, 2022 06:26
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gay picnic defence posted:The only issue is that it needs to be a massive screen. Thinking to future conflicts, this seems to be the ideal tank conflict and I’m not sure there will be another one anytime soon. China must be taking notes furiously because if they don’t need tanks to attack Taiwan that changes a lot for them. Attack Drones and a squad of guys on ATVs with Javelins, a spotting drone and some riflemen seem like a safer investment right now than tanks. But we’ll see how much of that is just Russian incompetence. I’m sure there’s lots of examples from the Middle East where US infantry were glad to see modern armour support roll in.
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Mar 11, 2022 06:31
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gay picnic defence posted:The only issue is that it needs to be a massive screen. What do you think the effective fire range of an abrams is? This goes out to everyone also discussing how 2km Javelin range is a deal breaker. Orthanc6 posted:Thinking to future conflicts, this seems to be the ideal tank conflict and I’m not sure there will be another one anytime soon.  Holy poo poo, no this is very much not an ideal tank conflict. It's pretty much the worst case scenario. It's THE time in that part of the world where the ground is super lovely to move on because of the mud so you have to stay on roadways, and they are trying to assault and enter/hold urban environments. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Mar 11, 2022 |
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Mar 11, 2022 06:33
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