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Oxyclean posted:Is it unpaid labor by the consumer to have to pick up the groceries and do their own shopping? Like I sort of get how you can view the shift as offloading the labor on the consumer, but it feels like something you can kind of disingenuously stretch to apply to more things too. It is unpaid labor because cashiers, in addition to just scanning the groceries, the cashier can also apply any discounts and coupons, ring up age restricted items such as tobacco, alcohol, and R-rated movies, is generally more efficient at scanning due to practice, and has the ability to handle and modify payments. Also, during the pandemic it's become much more common for stores to offer curbside pickup which means that collecting the items specified by the shopper, and putting them in the shopper's vehicle. Should the store employees not be paid since you don't consider those actions to be labor when the customer does it?
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Mar 13, 2022 20:14
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Oxyclean posted:I don't disagree one bit. Like I said, I just don't like the conclusion "we should keep jobs around for the sake of having jobs" - perhaps it's just a shorthand for the rest of this, but it always kinda comes across to me like admitting we're never going to pull off UBI or taxing the rich, iunno. Like treating symptoms rather then the cause. This is why I tend to roll my eyes when politicians brag about how there's just SO MANY JOBS! Like Jobs(tm) are, on their own, some kind of precious resource. The people working those jobs are naturally unimportant, of course, what matters is the Jobs themselves.
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Mar 13, 2022 20:18
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PeterCat posted:It is unpaid labor because cashiers, in addition to just scanning the groceries, the cashier can also apply any discounts and coupons, ring up age restricted items such as tobacco, alcohol, and R-rated movies, is generally more efficient at scanning due to practice, and has the ability to handle and modify payments. Technically I could be paying somebody to I dunno, brush my teeth, tie my shoelaces... Am I being a scab for not doing so?
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Mar 13, 2022 20:20
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Grocers used to function by you giving them a list of the poo poo you want and then them bringing it to you, so yeah, customer-facing aisles are kind of the OG self-checkout. This also had the side (?) effects of making branding/marketing/packaging a much bigger industry.
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Mar 13, 2022 20:32
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steinrokkan posted:Technically I could be paying somebody to I dunno, brush my teeth, tie my shoelaces... Am I being a scab for not doing so? Are those jobs that millions of people have had for decades? Wanna try again?
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Mar 13, 2022 20:36
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The only reason I find people going to the self checkouts in the grocery stores in my area is because everyone else wants to go to the manned checkouts since the employees know what they're doing better like looking up codes, etc. so those lines are full and the self checkouts are usually for those with smaller amount of items who just want to get out faster. It's like a second option rather than being a preferred choice. And in order to use the self checkouts you need those cards the grocery stores or a costco or sam's gives you. And yes, it is amusing to see the shifting of labor to the consumer by business to save money and having one person do maintenance when things go wrong and people need assistance. Let's open up a can of worms. It's the same thing when restaurants give food to the consumer to cook at their table and charge full price like fondu or hotpot or whatever. Resist! Pay money then I want the chef to cook! I'll cook at home!
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Mar 13, 2022 20:52
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Bottom Liner posted:Are those jobs that millions of people have had for decades? Wanna try again? Some jobs deserve to be destroyed. I love having multiple sets of cheap clothing and not having to be a tenant farmer to feed myself and my family.
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Mar 13, 2022 20:59
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Mellow Seas posted:Grocers used to function by you giving them a list of the poo poo you want and then them bringing it to you, so yeah, customer-facing aisles are kind of the OG self-checkout. This also had the side (?) effects of making branding/marketing/packaging a much bigger industry. Is that why the Beverly Hillbillies were teaching people about the wonders of the supermarket? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yi7B-bSwy4&t=75s
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Mar 13, 2022 21:05
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adhuin posted:Some jobs deserve to be destroyed. This is a pretty wild stretch from what everyone else is talking about.
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Mar 13, 2022 21:06
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Bottom Liner posted:Are those jobs that millions of people have had for decades? Wanna try again? Bring back rag pickers, tinkers and those guys who collected piss from chamber pots for tanners, i guess
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Mar 13, 2022 22:14
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steinrokkan posted:Bring back rag pickers, tinkers and those guys who collected piss from chamber pots for tanners, i guess You’re loving terrible at this.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:18
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Bottom Liner posted:You’re loving terrible at this. So counter their point rather than pretending this is a good response to their posting.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:21
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Bottom Liner posted:You’re loving terrible at this. Thank you for admitting you have no argument In the Conquest of Bread, Kropotkin says that free society focused on individual happiness can't exist as long as we have people who only exist to spend the whole day drilling holes into needles or sorting threads from the refuse pile of a loom and nothing else. because it generates a penny of profit for the factory owner to keep them so meaninglessly employed compared to alternatives. The same applies today to people who spend every day putting bar codes over scanners just because it's marginally more efficient than doing it another way. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 22:30
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steinrokkan posted:Bring back rag pickers, tinkers and those guys who collected piss from chamber pots for tanners, i guess Those jobs have been made obsolete by technology, while the self-checkout doesn't actually change anything other than who is doing the work.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:37
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Sekhmnet posted:Is that why the Beverly Hillbillies were teaching people about the wonders of the supermarket? When the show aired, self-service groceries were an ubiquitous convenience, but still new enough that it made sense backwoods country folk wouldn't have heard of it. In a comedy sense.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:41
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The next step in self-checkouts (already piloted by Amazon) is no checkouts at all. We have sufficient technology to electronically monitor what people are taking out of the store and simply charge them for it. This is the kind of thing that ideally should be celebrated as an awesome breakthrough in convenience, but in a world where millions rely on menial labor to survive, and where the financial benefits will mostly accrue to Literally the Richest Man Alive, it's more complicated.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:47
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steinrokkan posted:Thank you for admitting you have no argument But people are still doing those exact same motions it's just different people. Only less efficiently so more man-hours are wasted on it, it's just more efficient for the owner because he can externalize the labor onto customers who have to do it for free Do you know what self checkout is, are you confusing it with some kind of rfid system that automatically detects and rings up everything in a shopping cart as you wheel it out the door because that's the only way what you're saying makes sense Or do you think kropotkins point was that everyone who buys a sweater should do some ragpicking for the factory owner for free or what VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 22:51
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In a truly socialist society, we could just marvel at and celebrate the ways technological advancement makes our lives easier, instead of it just serving as another multiplier on the gini coefficient.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:51
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PeterCat posted:Those jobs have been made obsolete by technology, while the self-checkout doesn't actually change anything other than who is doing the work. They weren't eliminated by technology, on account all those jobs still prolifically exist outside of the first world. They were eliminated in some settings because the profits they were netting became too marginal to make sense, and because of labour movements improving general standards for workers. Which can happen to lots of other jobs.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:55
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Is part of this discussion an argument for keeping the cashier position over the automation of it? I can't imagine that ever becoming a position that will ever come close to a living wage that arguing for it seems counter productive.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:56
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VitalSigns posted:But people are still doing those exact same motions it's just different people. Only less efficiently so more man-hours are wasted on it, it's just more efficient for the owner because he can externalize the labor onto customers who have to do it for free The point of the argument I referred to is that is socially healthier for the public to share the burden of stupefying meniality rather than to offload it entirely on a separate group of people in the name of efficiency and specialization. Which I agree with.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:57
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Its really only useful as an argument for UBI. Cashier jobs, and most retail jobs in general, are terrible and abusive. It makes more sense to automate the jobs and provide UBI to people who lost those jobs and lets them go do something they actually want to do.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:57
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Is part of this discussion an argument for keeping the cashier position over the automation of it? CommieGIR posted:Its really only useful as an argument for UBI. Cashier jobs, and most retail jobs in general, are terrible and abusive. It makes more sense to automate the jobs and provide UBI to people who lost those jobs and lets them go do something they actually want to do. 
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Mar 13, 2022 23:00
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CommieGIR posted:Its really only useful as an argument for UBI. Cashier jobs, and most retail jobs in general, are terrible and abusive. It makes more sense to automate the jobs and provide UBI to people who lost those jobs and lets them go do something they actually want to do. Absolutely. It's part of a broader fight for emancipation.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:02
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steinrokkan posted:The point of the argument I referred to is that is socially healthier for the public to share the burden of stupefying meniality rather than to offload it entirely on a separate group of people in the name of efficiency and specialization. Which I agree with. Do you think Kropotkin's ideal is what's happening here or are you just yanking my chain? Everyone does a little ragpicking for free instead of for pay and the owner keeps all the profit anyway? Are you going you volunteer to wax the floor at the grocery store for free too to share the burden of stupefying meniality? Sounds like you should
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Mar 13, 2022 23:05
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VitalSigns posted:Do you think Kropotkin's ideal is what's happening here or are you just yanking my chain? Everyone does a little ragpicking for free instead of for pay and the owner keeps all the profit anyway? If everybody checking their groceries helps reduce the number of people whose jobs are tedium, it's worth it over keeping their wages so depressed they are worth less than the cost of the self check out kiosks that would make most of them redundant (which, as always is the only reason "technology", which is just an element for cynical dehumanised profit motive, hasn't displaced them already). And jobs that provide no utility whatsoever and exist only to extract some extremely miniscule remnant of value for the benefit of some capitalist should be obviously abolished entirely by labor action and either reorganized to meet basic standards of dignity (eg. children currently sifting through the garbage of wealthy nations to recover scraps), or recognized as inherently inhumane.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:14
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steinrokkan posted:If everybody checking their groceries helps reduce the number of people whose jobs are tedium, it's worth it over keeping their wages so depressed they are worth less than the cost of the self check out kiosks that would make most of them redundant (which, as always is the only reason "technology", which is just an element for cynical dehumanised profit motive, hasn't displaced them already). And jobs that provide no utility whatsoever and exist only to extract some extremely miniscule remnant of value for the benefit of some capitalist should be obviously abolished entirely by labor action and either reorganized to meet basic standards of dignity (eg. children currently sifting through the garbage of wealthy nations to recover scraps), or recognized as inherently inhumane. But the job still has to be done, checkout is not being abolished, a capitalist is still cynically extracting value from the work, he just doesn't have to actually pay the cost of labor anymore. This isn't like "sifting garbage for scrap metal" which is a job nobody should be doing. It sounds like you think it would be good if Target also made customers spend an hour cleaning the store every trip to eliminate the tedium of paying janitorial staff, is that accurate, or if not can you explain how that would be different. I'd like to see that explanation because right now you're just repeating yourself and not engaging with how the reasoning your offering doesn't fit the reality of what's happening.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:20
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I think you both have a point. To steinrokkan's point, I'm not particularly thrilled when I come across a bathroom attendant, or a full service gas station (except in New Jersey). Ultimately what is going on when a cashier is paid, presuming that the customer could do that labor themselves, is that the presumably wealthy owner is becoming slightly less wealthy and supporting, with varying degrees of sufficiency, the livelihood of a person. If all that labor is shifted to customers, that person has lost their livelihood, and customers have had their lives get a little shittier (as evidenced by all the personal complaints about self-checkouts we've shared here). VS's hypothetical of a customer-cleaned store amplifies this dynamic to make a good point. Now, there are things that can complicate this. If the customers get to save a little bit of money in the form of lower prices for their modest labor, that makes it better. If the person who was doing the menial task has an alternative source of livelihood, then it's better still. If the customer isn't saving any money, and just having it be more of a pain to check out, and the cashier is destitute, then the automation was bad. If the customers save a few bucks and the cashier is well-supported, it was good. It's hard to apply blanket statements about the benefits of automation, outside of perhaps "automation should theoretically always be good, but is often not, because capitalism." \/\/\/ Harold Fjord posted:Self checkout is in no way "automation" Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 23:27
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Self checkout is in no way "automation"
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Mar 13, 2022 23:28
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Harold Fjord posted:Self checkout is in no way "automation" Yes and no? Yes, it makes you do the worst part of being a cashier (which you are already effectively doing by being the one to go in and select your groceries). It does, however, automate or require less people to be manning registers. At most a single person to monitor 8-10 registers and do stuff like ID checks, etc.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:30
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CommieGIR posted:Yes and no? Yes, it makes you do the worst part of being a cashier (which you are already effectively doing by being the one to go in and select your groceries). It requires the exact same amount of people, its just the customer doing free labor instead. Actually it requires the same amount of people plus one or two because there's usually a sad security person questioning every bad decision that lead them to this point.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:32
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CommieGIR posted:Yes and no? Yes, it makes you do the worst part of being a cashier (which you are already effectively doing by being the one to go in and select your groceries). That's not automation though. There's no difference between the consoles except a customer-facing UI instead of an employee-facing one. A roomba automates vacuuming. If I just get 10 customers to vacuum the store while I pay one janitor to supervise and make sure they aren't stealing, that's not automation. I agree with steinrokkan's points on the desirability of automation given an environment of labor organization to ensure the benefits go to the workers and not to a capitalist who just kicks them onto the street, this just aint what's happening here.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:33
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VitalSigns posted:That's not automation though. There's no difference between the consoles except a customer-facing UI instead of an employee-facing one. It automates the entry of the data, which is often manually done by a cashier. It is very much automating large parts normally done by a human, yes where its not automation is making you do the work. But that's work you are already effectively doing because you have to go retrieve the food, put it in your cart, then unload it again, and often bag it yourself in many stores.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:42
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PeterCat posted:Those jobs have been made obsolete by technology, while the self-checkout doesn't actually change anything other than who is doing the work. VitalSigns posted:That's not automation though. There's no difference between the consoles except a customer-facing UI instead of an employee-facing one. Oxyclean fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 23:44
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Maybe 'Consolidation' is a better term than Automation, but it is using machine and customer labor to fully replace paid cashiers. Again, why UBI needs to be a thing: We're only going to see more of this.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:47
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CommieGIR posted:It automates the entry of the data, which is often manually done by a cashier. It is very much automating large parts normally done by a human, yes where its not automation is making you do the work. It doesn't though, you know the cashier has a scanner they use to enter the data right, that isn't just for self-checkout. It just changes who is doing it. This isn't a luddite objection to barcode scanners automating away the process of looking up goods in a price booklet and manually adding up columns and calculating tax.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:48
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VitalSigns posted:It doesn't though, you know the cashier has a scanner they use to enter the data right, that isn't just for self-checkout. It just changes who is doing it. Hence why I posted this: CommieGIR posted:Maybe 'Consolidation' is a better term than Automation, but it is using machine and customer labor to fully replace paid cashiers. Either way it has largely the same effect of automation: Jobs are replaced or lost in favor of other systems that don't require as much human involvement.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:50
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Ultimately we all agree that the main problem is that people are reliant on doing stupid poo poo like "scanning groceries" to eat food and live indoors, and that all employment should be optional and gainful instead of for subsistence.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:51
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CommieGIR posted:Hence why I posted this: Yeah and it doesn't do that. It requires just as much human involvement to ring up a cart of groceries whether it's a paid employee or a customer doing it, actually the latter requires more because a customer is slower and you also need a couple employees there to assist and make sure no one is stealing. It's just less paid labor involvement so the latter is cheaper for the company, that's it. Again if you make the customers run the floor waxer and just have one janitor supervise that's not "less human involvement"
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Mar 14, 2022 00:00
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VitalSigns posted:Again if you make the customers run the floor waxer and just have one janitor supervise that's not "less human involvement" This is a weird way to spin shopping, especially grocery store shopping: you ALREADY go grab the groceries. This just replaces a human helping you checkout. Its not the same as having customers stock things and maintain the store.
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Mar 14, 2022 00:03
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