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goddamnedtwisto posted:So take the next step to join all of the people who've been arguing with you about this and realise that it's *money* that's the problem, not the fact that that money happened to cross a magic line on the way - and that the people pushing the story that it's the fact that it's foreign money that's the problem are the ones who most want you not to realise this. I have... I've been arguing the entire time that just because the only particular story that Carole is being taken to court over isn't the harbinger that will bring about the great revolution doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing that shouldn't be supported. People in this thread are understandably so blackpilled at this point that even the vaguest suggestion of anyone in the press taking the briefest of breaks from being a total oval office might be a nice thing actually is a 3 page argument that I happened to feel like having today. jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 13, 2022 |
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Mar 13, 2022 22:52
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I can't overstate this - when Putin was still in secondary school, the owner of the largest circulation newspaper in this country was *literally plotting a military coup* against Harold Wilson. Foreign money is not the problem, and has never been the problem. Foreign money is a problem. But it’s by no means the only problem or the biggest problem. As you or someone has said, money is the problem, and shining a light on where some of it is coming from and an element of corruption is helpful. Insisting that it’s the only problem or even the main problem isn’t helpful, I agree.
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Mar 13, 2022 22:54
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OwlFancier posted:In case it wasn't obvious enough we bomb cities too. no we dont. we bomb particular little bits of them. or aim to
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Mar 13, 2022 22:55
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goddamnedtwisto posted:https://twitter.com/CouncilCulture/status/1503053867004710916 And with a bit of digging I've discovered the person who dropped it through my door was in fact a Newham councilor because *not even TH Labour councilors* are coming out to help doorknock on the Isle of Dogs. 
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Mar 13, 2022 22:58
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Should have carved them in the side of a canary wharf tower if they wanted them taken seriously.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:05
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jiggerypokery posted:I have... I've been arguing the entire time that just because the only particular story that Carole is being taken to court over isn't the harbinger that will bring about the great revolution doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing that shouldn't be supported. It's not being blackpilled, it's not nihilism, it's recognising that rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic is a pointless endeavour. The problem isn't Russian money, the problem is money. Rich people. It'd be fine Codswallop was arguing that dealing with Russian money in politics as a first step but she's not, she doesn't seem overly concerned about Yanks using their money to push an anti-LGBTQ+ agenda with anti-trans activism as the thin edge of the wedge, or British newspaper owners using their power to influence politics to blaming immigrants for problems caused by the destruction of entire industries courtesy of the economic policies pushed by those newspaper owners, neoliberalism. Part of why I find the whole thing so aggravating is that it takes away agency from a lot of working class people who did vote for Brexit & that's counter-productive. Yes, rich people used propaganda to influence the referendum, indisputably. But they still only won the referendum because of a deep sense of alienation from modern society among a chunk of the working class that left them ripe to listen to nativist narratives, a political spasm of frustration. From where I stand it seems far more important to end that sense of alienation, rediscover a positive sense of community & yeah, class solidarity rather than worrying about "Russian oligarchs". The problem isn't foreign interference in British politics, the problem is rich people's interference in politics all over the globe.
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Mar 13, 2022 23:20
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lol yeah lets stop having money one loving step ahead of you
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Mar 13, 2022 23:47
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i prefer mr sheen myself 
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Mar 14, 2022 00:15
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NotJustANumber99 posted:lol yeah lets stop having money You own a car that costs more than every vehicle I have ever owned, combined. goddamnedtwisto fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 00:28
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goddamnedtwisto posted:You own a car that costs more than every vehicle I have ever owned, combined. like so its pretty obvious where the money went then and nah its leased noone sensible buys a tesla
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Mar 14, 2022 00:34
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NotJustANumber99 posted:like so its pretty obvious where the money went then Just to check... you're aware that there are valid reasons no-one takes you seriously, right?
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Mar 14, 2022 00:42
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kingturnip posted:Just to check... you're aware that there are valid reasons no-one takes you seriously, right? valid to whom?
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Mar 14, 2022 00:44
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kingturnip posted:Just to check... you're aware that there are valid reasons no-one takes you seriously, right? also wtf? who either doesn't take me seriously or alternatively even notices or cares i exist?
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Mar 14, 2022 00:47
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feedmegin posted:This, in particular, is insanely incorrect. Do you have cites? I'll accept correction on this, but I had always been given to believe that Hitler's claims to the Sudetenland and Danzig were based on the territory being historically German, not the people.
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Mar 14, 2022 00:58
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I think the term you might be looking for is "volksdeutsche" which as far as I know is what the nazis called people they considered to be "proper germans" but did not live in germany. And they were deliberately appealed to by the nazis to form the core of various nazi-aligned groups in areas they occupied. Of course nazis being nazis they were loving weird about it and didn't give you a great deal of choice whether or not you wanted to be "re-germanized" or whatever but they did, as far as I know, extend their weird race ideas outside the borders of germany and not purely in a "this is the order we should kill everyone in" sense. Which uh, certainly makes the recent media comments about the white christian european-ness of the ukrainian refugees very normal, very excellent, not at all disturbing. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 01:05
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I had a dream where I was trapped in a room with Keir Starmer and forced to lose political arguments about centrism with him and it was less painful than catching up with this thread today. To add to the discussion. I agree with goddamnedtwisto. Money is the issue. Reporter lady having a heavy slant towards russian money being the only issue and also giving no fucks about others until the leopards came home to eat her face means her credibility and anything that she champions needs to be taken with a huge barrel of salt.
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Mar 14, 2022 01:43
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goddamnedtwisto posted:And with a bit of digging I've discovered the person who dropped it through my door was in fact a Newham councilor because *not even TH Labour councilors* are coming out to help doorknock on the Isle of Dogs. Had lunch with a comrade on Friday and he's still hanging on in the party but he said so many of the foot-sloggers have left now, there's hardly anyone available to do leafletting etc.*He's done a bit because the person standing asked him personally and he reluctantly agreed to do150 leaflets. In his view, the party at the top have to learn a hard lesson about pissing off anyone in the party to the left of Ghengis Khan. On the other hand, there were a handful of leaflets from our Labour county council candidate on a chair in the foyer and quite a few have gone (as in taken to read not binned as there are still a few there) which I'm quite surprised about given the demographics of our flats (mostly old ladies in their 80s). They are in fact the only leaflets that have appeared from anyone. However, this is tory town or so called 'independents' (who all seem to be former tories who had a row with other local tories). *and of those hanging on in the hopes of getting a chance to vote for a more left NEC / LOTO, they've all pledged to do sod all. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 02:04
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Jedit posted:Do you have cites? I'll accept correction on this, but I had always been given to believe that Hitler's claims to the Sudetenland and Danzig were based on the territory being historically German, not the people. This isn't obscure really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksdeutsche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_ins_Reich https://www.jstor.org/stable/260679
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Mar 14, 2022 02:14
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Having been a tenant in the UK, China, Brazil and Hong Kong, the UK is the only one where the state gave me any reliable rights against my landlord, weak though they were. If you really want to see “hostile to renters”, try Hong Kong, where for 150 years every meaningful precedent-setting judicial decision and every piece of legislation has weirdly favoured property developers over landlords and landlords over tenants (my favourite example was upholding the rule that apartments should be priced by “gross area”, including theoretical spaces not actually part of the flat, which was only set aside after the GFC, but you can also see eg the decision to flat out ignore zoning restrictions in the New Territories). Even the UK can’t match that record. The UK is *more* hostile to renters than it was in the 1970s and so long as Tory/Tory-lite governments remain in power it will continue getting worse, but that’s a different point. It is still in objective terms a lot less unfair than it could be. Or plenty of space for “improvement”, as Sunak would probably see it.
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Mar 14, 2022 03:18
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goddamnedtwisto posted:So take the next step to join all of the people who've been arguing with you about this and realise that it's *money* that's the problem, not the fact that that money happened to cross a magic line on the way - and that the people pushing the story that it's the fact that it's foreign money that's the problem are the ones who most want you not to realise this. Yeah there's a bunch of massively corrupt shits in government and they take money from any oval office who's offering it. It does so happen that Russia created loads of massively corrupt and massively rich shits of their own in the 90s during Russian privatisation, and so lots of dodgy money flows our way from Russia... but it's far from the only place dodgy money comes from and you can't point to everything wrong in Britain and every malign influence and scream "RUSSIA DID THIS!". Yes Russian oligarchs are bad and they do wield a lot of influence in the UK and they do buy off British politicians... but it's not like the corrupt British politicians actually give a poo poo where specifically the money comes from. To think of it another way, if you "solve" the "Russia problem", somebody else would step in to fill the gap and be handing bungs to British politicians to do awful things (and indeed, people from other places also do that already), and you solve basically nothing. If you solve the "money can influence politics against the best interests of the people" problem, then you solve most of the problems. Russian oligarchs wouldn't be able to do poo poo to our democracy if our democracy weren't stuffed to the brim with self-serving pieces of utter poo poo. It's a systemic issue and if anybody thinks the problem is solved with "well we need to replace Putin with somebody different!" or whatever then they have brain worms. Cadwalladr's a joke and won't learn anything, ever.
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Mar 14, 2022 06:16
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I think the idea that there is some magic bullet that will solve everything once we just kick out Russian money is deeply alluring not just because it appeals to a liberal sense of good and evil/a basically just system with a few bad actors/etc. but because
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Mar 14, 2022 06:53
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WhatEvil posted:Yeah there's a bunch of massively corrupt shits in government and they take money from any oval office who's offering it. It does so happen that Russia created loads of massively corrupt and massively rich shits of their own in the 90s during Russian privatisation, and so lots of dodgy money flows our way from Russia... but it's far from the only place dodgy money comes from and you can't point to everything wrong in Britain and every malign influence and scream "RUSSIA DID THIS!". Yes Russian oligarchs are bad and they do wield a lot of influence in the UK and they do buy off British politicians... but it's not like the corrupt British politicians actually give a poo poo where specifically the money comes from. Yeah, this nicely clarifies a big part of the point I was making, one of those things that's so obvious in my own head that maybe I forget to say it out loud - the outrage should be against the people who are *taking* the bribes, considerably more so than those giving them, not even for moral reasons but for simple practical reasons. The Tory party chairman whose name is currently escaping me, whose entire job is basically to be the bag man for dodgy money, is far more easily reached by our laws than the people stuffing the plain brown envelopes. While we're at it, the brass-plate companies that are used for channeling the money are the real reason the worst people in the world are so intent on influencing our politics, and cutting them off at the knees could be done tomorrow rather than spending years trying to lift the veil on where that money's coming from.
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Mar 14, 2022 08:26
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Yeah, this nicely clarifies a big part of the point I was making, one of those things that's so obvious in my own head that maybe I forget to say it out loud - the outrage should be against the people who are *taking* the bribes, considerably more so than those giving them, not even for moral reasons but for simple practical reasons. The Tory party chairman whose name is currently escaping me, whose entire job is basically to be the bag man for dodgy money, is far more easily reached by our laws than the people stuffing the plain brown envelopes. Oliver Dowden?
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Mar 14, 2022 08:59
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HopperUK posted:This isn't obscure really. Thanks for the info, but I'm no closer to why you think this is a counter-argument. Heim ins Reich was an invitation offered to the Volksdeutsche in countries targeted for invasion to not have war made on them.
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Mar 14, 2022 09:41
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Yeah, this nicely clarifies a big part of the point I was making, one of those things that's so obvious in my own head that maybe I forget to say it out loud - the outrage should be against the people who are *taking* the bribes, considerably more so than those giving them, not even for moral reasons but for simple practical reasons. The Tory party chairman whose name is currently escaping me, whose entire job is basically to be the bag man for dodgy money, is far more easily reached by our laws than the people stuffing the plain brown envelopes. I think a big part of the problem in the last few pages is not saying the things that are so obvious in my own head that maybe I forgot to say them out loud. Lungboy posted:Oliver Dowden? It's Ben Elliot specifically that runs a company that provides things like limos, gets restaurant tables, hotel bookings, all that poo poo for rich people. Literally exists to be the governments starbucks tip jar. e: not getting into something again jiggerypokery fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Mar 14, 2022 |
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Mar 14, 2022 09:42
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Nice https://twitter.com/resist_london/status/1503276264144224257
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Mar 14, 2022 10:09
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forkboy84 posted:It's not being blackpilled, it's not nihilism, it's recognising that rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic is a pointless endeavour. The problem isn't Russian money, the problem is money. Rich people. It'd be fine Codswallop was arguing that dealing with Russian money in politics as a first step but she's not, she doesn't seem overly concerned about Yanks using their money to push an anti-LGBTQ+ agenda with anti-trans activism as the thin edge of the wedge, or British newspaper owners using their power to influence politics to blaming immigrants for problems caused by the destruction of entire industries courtesy of the economic policies pushed by those newspaper owners, neoliberalism. Yup, this is where I'm at too
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Mar 14, 2022 10:38
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Barry Foster posted:Yup, this is where I'm at too I don't disagree with any of that either except to add that who the rich people are and what they want to do with their influence does matter.
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Mar 14, 2022 10:53
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Why does them being Russian matter? Really, why? Why is a foreign government corrupting our democracy somehow more offensive than a British native doing it?
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Mar 14, 2022 10:55
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I conisder myself reasonably aware of UK politics, but thanks to the weird thread discussion today I found out about a military plot against Harold Wilson? Where can inread more than on Wikipedia about it. I would never have though Wilson was so dangerous to the establishment at the time. Its fascinating.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:00
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The Saviour posted:I conisder myself reasonably aware of UK politics, but thanks to the weird thread discussion today I found out about a military plot against Harold Wilson? Where can inread more than on Wikipedia about it. People were absolutely convinced he was a Soviet agent. There's a BBC documentary which is still on Youtube, The Plot Against Harold Wilson.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:11
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forkboy84 posted:Why does them being Russian matter? Really, why? Why is a foreign government corrupting our democracy somehow more offensive than a British native doing it? The reason I think it matters isn't borne of some psudo-racist ruso-phobia. It's not about who is more offensive. In 2022 "Russian influence" means Putin. He literally is the state. The types of things Putin wants to achieve determines the particular "british native" he is willing to support and further empower and the types of real consequences that has on lives of people they have power over. It's really tedious to have to make the point that no matter how bad it is, there is no floor to how much worse it could get.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:20
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I'm not disagreeing with most of everyone's points, but to totally dismiss Russia's influence over the Brexit vote is disingenuous to say the least. I'm of the belief that we would have narrowly voted to have remained within the EU had Russian troll farms, with their microtargeted ads and untold millions in dark money, had not become involved.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:22
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I'm of the belief that our openly pro Brexit mainstream press pushing for it since we first joined had more of an effect than Granny being on facebook.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:26
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fuctifino posted:I'm not disagreeing with most of everyone's points, but to totally dismiss Russia's influence over the Brexit vote is disingenuous to say the least. I'm of the belief that we would have narrowly voted to have remained within the EU had Russian troll farms, with their microtargeted ads and untold millions in dark money, had not become involved. But as I and others have pointed out, why is that more worthy of attention than whatever produced the other 45% of the support?
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Mar 14, 2022 11:26
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OwlFancier posted:But as I and others have pointed out, why is that more worthy of attention than whatever produced the other 45% of the support? The fact that Brexit actually happened does matter as well. The fact that the Putin regime was willing to take risks to make it happen is important AS WELL.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:30
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On the other hand, if the UK sensibles had actually seriously engaged with the debate (from at least when the referendum was confirmed) and actually spelled out to people what the tangible benefits of the EU membership were it might have been a different story. People were certainly duped by misinfo but that doesn't excuse the fact that the 'remain with the pretty good status quo' option somehow still only got 46% in England. Scotland has the same lovely right wing press and returned 62% in favour of the status quo, what happened here, it can't all be blamed on Russia?
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Mar 14, 2022 11:32
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OwlFancier posted:But as I and others have pointed out, why is that more worthy of attention than whatever produced the other 45% of the support? When someone is standing on a cliff and falls off it, we ask why they were standing there. When someone is standing on a cliff and is pushed off it, we do not.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:33
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OwlFancier posted:But as I and others have pointed out, why is that more worthy of attention than whatever produced the other 45% of the support? Of course it all should be under the spotlight, but the fact that we would probably still be in the EU were it not for Russian interference and complicit Russian assets in the UK is an important point, especially when Russia is this heavily in the news. But I also agree that the destructive and criminal UK establishment also needs to be exposed and hung out to dry.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:35
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Jedit posted:When someone is standing on a cliff and falls off it, we ask why they were standing there. When someone is standing on a cliff and is pushed off it, we do not. I think the better analogy would be a succession of governments pushing the country towards the cliff and then going "WHY DID RUSSIA DO THIS" when it falls off.
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Mar 14, 2022 11:36
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