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feedmegin posted:I mean you cant miss them but the old Hanseatic buildings on the seafront in Bergen are thread-relevant and worth a look. Oslo has a fortress, I've never been there myself but it might be worth a look. Thanks, I'd heard about Bryggen, the UNESCO waterfront, but didn't know if it was interesting or just tourist bait. Drakhoran posted:I think the stereotypical tourist activity in Bergen is taking the funicular up to Fløyen for a panoramic view of the city. I guess the Oslo equivalent would be the top of the Holmenkollen ski jump. Both cities have old fortifications, Bergenhus and Akershus respectively. Akershus is also home to Forsvarsmuseet. Thank you! It's cool that the Bergenhus is free. It sounds like it's also an active military base? That link says the military police have authority there. Tias posted:Bergen also has some hidden gems with regards to museums. The Hanseatic History Museum ought to be worth a trip. There's also the "Theta Museum" about the Norwegian resistance, though I haven't been. Thanks, I didn't realize there were so many museum's by Bryggen. It's practically surrounded.
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Feb 20, 2022 06:32
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Vitruvian Manic posted:A sword is a great mix between a stabbing and bludgeoning weapon with added/optional defensive capabilities. And they can be developed and min/maxed along any of those lines. A gladius, katana, epee, Saber, scimitar, bastard and claymore are all pretty different weapons despite all being "swords" Can't fool me. They’re all the same, it’s just that nobody knows how to pronounce "sword".
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Feb 20, 2022 20:02
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You can also use them to cut.
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Feb 20, 2022 20:09
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Zopotantor posted:Can't fool me. They’re all the same, it’s just that nobody knows how to pronounce "sword". How do you pronounce it?
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Feb 20, 2022 20:41
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"Sword".
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Feb 21, 2022 14:23
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LLSix posted:
Akershus Fortress is also an active military base. I was there when I was first drafted. There's also the Medieval Park. Ekeberg also have some historical sites. It also have some really cool sculptures:  (the buttplug gnome isn't even among the top ten weirdest sculptures in the park).
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Feb 25, 2022 19:57
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Zereth posted:"Sword". That doesn’t mean anything unless you spell it out phonetically. It’s pronounced s-w-o-r-d
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Feb 26, 2022 02:29
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A weird question maybe, but this thread seems the right place to ask: Does anyone have good recommendations for accurate maps showing the insides of pyramids, complete with a measure of scale? I would like to recreate some of them as maps in classic games, but am having trouble finding layouts that don't give me a headache.
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Mar 9, 2022 14:15
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The expedition to find the endurance succeeded: https://twitter.com/thehistoryguy/status/1501452764131598342?s=20&t=hqsx0M7436HY1_2mHTHGMA
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Mar 9, 2022 14:57
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Dante posted:The expedition to find the endurance succeeded:
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Mar 9, 2022 15:07
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Dante posted:The expedition to find the endurance succeeded: Already infinitely more successful than Shackleton's expedition itself
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Mar 9, 2022 15:46
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Endurance, indeed. Seeing modern day photos of the ship so intact is really cool.
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Mar 9, 2022 21:57
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Sobatchja Morda posted:A weird question maybe, but this thread seems the right place to ask: It's not exactly a map, but there the Harvard Digital Giza project has interactive 3D models of the Giza pyramids (including the insides) that might help with that: http://giza.fas.harvard.edu/giza3d/.
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Mar 9, 2022 22:00
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CrypticFox posted:It's not exactly a map, but there the Harvard Digital Giza project has interactive 3D models of the Giza pyramids (including the insides) that might help with that: http://giza.fas.harvard.edu/giza3d/. Ooooh, that's the good stuff!
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Mar 9, 2022 23:00
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Movies and TV documentaries need to show ancient rome with blonde haired, blue eyed slaves, because that's what they had. The main booty from war was slaves, And the Romans defeated northern european tribes the most during the imperial period that movies and TV focus on.
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Mar 14, 2022 23:46
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I decided to make my way through the Bible sometime last year and there's been something I've been wondering about for a while. So one of the groups Jesus gets criticized for hanging around with is tax collectors; they're lumped together with sinners as people who are no good. I think I know the basics of how taxation worked in Roman times: the state would hire contractors to collect taxes, the contractors would pay the state what the state desired, and any taxes they collected beyond that was their profit. What I'm specifically wondering if there are any sources on why tax collectors were specifically despised. Obviously everybody hates paying taxes and that's part of it, especially in an occupied territory like Judea, but were they low-status because of that or was it usually people of low status who became tax collectors? It seems from the gospels at least that the tax collectors were hired from the local population. Was this an Uber-like model where collectors passed most of their profit on to the higher-ups in Rome, or were individual collectors getting rich?
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Mar 15, 2022 02:26
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ChocNitty posted:Movies and TV documentaries need to show ancient rome with blonde haired, blue eyed slaves, because that's what they had. Not all northern Europeans are Aryan stereotypes. Not even close.
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Mar 15, 2022 02:34
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Not all northern Europeans are Aryan stereotypes. Not even close. Not even close to all Roman slaves were from Northern Europe either, even during the imperial era.
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Mar 15, 2022 02:38
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Rochallor posted:I decided to make my way through the Bible sometime last year and there's been something I've been wondering about for a while. So one of the groups Jesus gets criticized for hanging around with is tax collectors; they're lumped together with sinners as people who are no good. I think I know the basics of how taxation worked in Roman times: the state would hire contractors to collect taxes, the contractors would pay the state what the state desired, and any taxes they collected beyond that was their profit. What I'm specifically wondering if there are any sources on why tax collectors were specifically despised. Obviously everybody hates paying taxes and that's part of it, especially in an occupied territory like Judea, but were they low-status because of that or was it usually people of low status who became tax collectors? It seems from the gospels at least that the tax collectors were hired from the local population. Was this an Uber-like model where collectors passed most of their profit on to the higher-ups in Rome, or were individual collectors getting rich? They were hated for two main reasons: they were collaborators with the occupying enemy, and they preyed on the poor and defenseless while letting the rich and powerful slide.
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Mar 15, 2022 02:40
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Were 'tax collectors' the people who actually owned the tax contracts, or the people they sent door-to-door to force people to pay up? Because the second group obviously don't get to keep the take.
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Mar 15, 2022 02:44
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Rochallor posted:I decided to make my way through the Bible sometime last year and there's been something I've been wondering about for a while. So one of the groups Jesus gets criticized for hanging around with is tax collectors; they're lumped together with sinners as people who are no good. I think I know the basics of how taxation worked in Roman times: the state would hire contractors to collect taxes, the contractors would pay the state what the state desired, and any taxes they collected beyond that was their profit. What I'm specifically wondering if there are any sources on why tax collectors were specifically despised. Obviously everybody hates paying taxes and that's part of it, especially in an occupied territory like Judea, but were they low-status because of that or was it usually people of low status who became tax collectors? It seems from the gospels at least that the tax collectors were hired from the local population. Was this an Uber-like model where collectors passed most of their profit on to the higher-ups in Rome, or were individual collectors getting rich? well so you're kind of missing a step here rome farms contracts out for tax collection, yes, but rarely to individual tax collectors. generally the elite of the province will take on the contracts, and then they hire agents to do the tax collection. so the actual man on the ground badgering people for taxes may or may not be low status, but they're representatives of elites who are collaborating with the romans. also, the whole "tax for profit" thing really encourages brutality and abuse; there is no "tax rate", so essentially the taxes are whatever you can bully people into giving up without having them rise up in revolt. also, historically speaking the jewish priesthood disapproved of taxes; obviously, a king's got to raise a bit of money, but y'know, most of those goods really ought to be headed for the temple instead. even worse that the romans are now getting a cut, not just the king! so it's only natural that these fellows that are taking the temple's rightful due are sinful Jazerus fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Mar 15, 2022 02:54
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Taxation in the time of the Roman Empire was really more like extortion. Essentially what happened is that the Senate would say "we need X amount in taxes in order to pay for the legions this year" and each governor was required to provide a certain amount of that total (although I might be thinking of the tributum specifically). Beyond the total sum they needed to supply, there were no rules. Governors would often allow the upper class members of the provincial natives to bid on the right to collect taxes, which was lucrative for both parties. The governor got however much money he was telling the collectors they had to give him (which was definitely more than he needed to send to Rome), plus the money the collectors paid in order for the right to collect taxes. The collectors gambled on being able to skim off the top in order to make a profit and also got to suck up to the governor for privileges or maybe even citizenship. Tax collectors were often accompanied by muscle/thugs or even Roman auxiliary troops in some areas. Urban settlements were also a lot easier to tax people in so collectors could be particularly vicious and ruthless there because it was easier to keep track of people, and Judea was one of the more developed provinces.
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Mar 15, 2022 03:11
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This sounds like it would make 'murder the tax collector'a viable strategy. The governor already has his money so he's not going to send the army after you.
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Mar 15, 2022 03:18
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Well if you're murdering the tax collector that's either a Roman citizen or someone connected to the local political elite. In both cases, they are going to look into what happened to the guy who was supposed to bring them money. In rural areas it was a lot harder to tax people though. In Egypt (for example) there were tribes that would just gently caress off into the desert when it was tax time, which aggravated the Romans so much that sometimes they actually did send the army after them.
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Mar 15, 2022 04:12
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also, unlike the taxes of a modern state, there wasn't even any pretense that it was being invested back into your community. It was all being siphoned off to italy
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Mar 15, 2022 04:28
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Travel was notoriously dangerous, even in the Roman Empire. Collecting taxes involved a lot of travel. Even taxing urban areas, you still have to transport the taxes all the way back to Rome (at least the fraction that's being sent all the way up the chain) and they could "go missing" anywhere along that route. I'm an amateur and don't know of any scholarship either way, but I'd expect that the local Roman elites wouldn't start getting concerned about what happened to their tax collecting goons until the second or third one went missing in the same area. Assuming they even knew which area they were headed to next before they disappeared. There are several Roman generals who got famous for putting down pirate fleets. Which tells us both that Romans would send the army out if things get bad enough, and also that things did get bad enough to need an army with surprising frequency.
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Mar 15, 2022 05:13
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Piracy was a problem in the Mediterranean before Rome became a naval power, so it didn't really affect the Romans because their conquests and provinces were generally land based and nearby. Rome became a naval power and the hegemon of the Mediterranean after it defeated Carthage, the Seleucids, and other successor states, and they stamped out organized piracy relatively quickly after gaining control of the Mediterranean. All of this was during the Republic too. By the time of the Roman Empire, large organized pirate bases/fleets like the Cilicians were essentially a thing of the past.
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Mar 15, 2022 05:58
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Taxation in the time of the Roman Empire was really more like extortion. Essentially what happened is that the Senate would say "we need X amount in taxes in order to pay for the legions this year" and each governor was required to provide a certain amount of that total (although I might be thinking of the tributum specifically). Beyond the total sum they needed to supply, there were no rules. Governors would often allow the upper class members of the provincial natives to bid on the right to collect taxes, which was lucrative for both parties. The governor got however much money he was telling the collectors they had to give him (which was definitely more than he needed to send to Rome), plus the money the collectors paid in order for the right to collect taxes. The collectors gambled on being able to skim off the top in order to make a profit and also got to suck up to the governor for privileges or maybe even citizenship. Tax collectors were often accompanied by muscle/thugs or even Roman auxiliary troops in some areas. Urban settlements were also a lot easier to tax people in so collectors could be particularly vicious and ruthless there because it was easier to keep track of people, and Judea was one of the more developed provinces. Everything I know about Roman tax collection I got from Asterix.
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Mar 15, 2022 20:34
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Tax farms were ludicrous and it would be highly embarrassing if any nation kept that kind of taxation system around into the early modern era.
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Mar 15, 2022 23:03
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Azza Bamboo posted:Tax farms were ludicrous and it would be highly embarrassing if any nation kept that kind of taxation system around into the early modern era.   ?
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Mar 15, 2022 23:11
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were there any sort of restrictions like tax laws or some other laws, or could the tax guys just loot at sword point
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Mar 15, 2022 23:23
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ChubbyChecker posted:were there any sort of restrictions like tax laws or some other laws, or could the tax guys just loot at sword point For one, the state won't necessarily back you (because they already got their cut, and not spending state resources on collection is the whole point of the endeavor), so pushing the locals too hard means they might grab their pitchforks and other sharp farm implements. Or, the taxees could appeal to the state and be like 'get your tax collectors under control or we will revolt, and then you will have to spend a bunch if money putting us down.' But you know, a mob protection racket rarely needs to gun down the people they're shaking down. For one, dead people cant pay up the next time you go through looking to cash out. Also, in most cases there was a theoretical tax rate that was set by the state and not the tax farmers, it's just the state was just passing off the costs of administering that tax. So it wasn't a free pass to steal everything the peasants owned.
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Mar 15, 2022 23:40
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You absolutely could go down for corruption including extortion of taxes - and we have Cicero's prosecution of the magistrate Verres to prove it. Someone more familiar with it can probably point to where the juicy bits are. Thing is, as I understand it, it is a court of public (aristocratic) opinion sort of deal and Verres' crime is making too many powerful enemies with his behaviour. If you were extorted it was on you to sue the governor yourself or complain to your patron.
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Mar 15, 2022 23:47
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Rome was also funded by estates directly owned by the emperor And booty. Can’t forget booty.
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Mar 15, 2022 23:50
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Strategic Tea posted:You absolutely could go down for corruption including extortion of taxes - and we have Cicero's prosecution of the magistrate Verres to prove it. Someone more familiar with it can probably point to where the juicy bits are. yes, there was an understanding that you wouldn't push things far enough to endanger roman control of the province. the figure the governor asks the contracted tax collectors to collect should be a "reasonable" amount above what the state asked for, and the figure the collectors actually collect should be a "reasonable" amount above that, but no more. however, these rates are not set by law, but rather depend on local customs around how much you can realistically get people to fork over.
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Mar 16, 2022 00:27
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euphronius posted:Rome was also funded by estates directly owned by the emperor I wish my tax burden was just booty. Who says Rome was archaic?!
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Mar 16, 2022 00:40
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I believe tax collecting was a risky venture and equestrians would form corporations to share the initial capital (to pay to the state) as well as the risk if their bid turned out to be too aggressive. If I recall correctly, bailing out tax collectors was part of Marius' platform generally favoring plebeian equestrians
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Mar 16, 2022 01:25
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Everything I know about Roman tax collectors is from when a teacher saw I was the shortest boy in the class and made me play Zacchaeus in a school play.
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Mar 16, 2022 01:41
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How frequently did tax contracts change hands? Did you want to pillage as much as you could hecause next year is someone else's problem, or would it be you again next year so you want to leave them enough to prosper and keep paying tax?
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Mar 16, 2022 01:55
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Wait what? I know nothing about how the French collect taxes but surely in TYOOL 2022 they don’t use publicans. Or is this some sort of double ?
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Mar 16, 2022 14:50
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