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New strip Love how confused Roy is
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Mar 17, 2022 01:14
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 07:28 |
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I love characters acting reasonably and sensibly from their own perspective generating conflict with others doing the same. It is one of the best strengths of this comic
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Mar 17, 2022 01:30
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ikanreed posted:I love characters acting reasonably and sensibly from their own perspective generating conflict with others doing the same.
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Mar 17, 2022 01:46
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I love how lost Roy is in all this. He makes a perfectly good point, but he doesn't have all the information we have to understand Serini's problems better. But it's slowly getting there.
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Mar 17, 2022 08:45
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It is nice of Rich to spend two months doing a comic to bring Roy to speed with what we already know.
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Mar 17, 2022 10:59
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They really need to get to 'the gods are going to blow up the world dipshit'
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Mar 17, 2022 11:03
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MikeJF posted:They really need to get to 'the gods are going to blow up the world dipshit' Yeah beating around the bush like they do is a little frustrating, but theres no real reason for serini to believe them about it is there?
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Mar 17, 2022 11:20
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ZearothK posted:It is nice of Rich to spend two months doing a comic to bring Roy to speed with what we already know. Yeah it is not exactly charging along rn
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Mar 17, 2022 12:40
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mandatory lesbian posted:Yeah beating around the bush like they do is a little frustrating, but theres no real reason for serini to believe them about it is there? She's an epic rogue, I assume her sense-bullshit-ometer is off the scales? Like maybe Haley could bluff her but if all of the order seem to be telling the truth it's probably true. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 13:35
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Not if she assumes Roy has some bullshit "get away witn lying to the rogue" feat. It wouldn't be the first time.quote:Redcloak: But which is more believable: that a powerful order of paladins—directly empowered by your gods to defend the very fabric of the universe—would deliberately ignore the status of 4 out of 5 locations that could threaten it? Strip 546. 548 comfirms that Redcloak wasn't fully convinced until after saying this.
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Mar 17, 2022 14:14
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It also would require her to be willing to be convinced she was not doing the correct thing
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Mar 17, 2022 14:26
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Gnoman posted:Not if she assumes Roy has some bullshit "get away witn lying to the rogue" feat. It wouldn't be the first time. True. But she largely doesn't seem to think they're liars, just dumbasses. It's worth mentioning, at least.
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Mar 17, 2022 14:50
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MikeJF posted:They really need to get to 'the gods are going to blow up the world dipshit' Honestly not sure that would even work on Serini. Her whole purpose in life is protecting the gates. If the gods destroy and remake the world to stop Redcloak, well, job well done, protected hers all the way to the end.
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Mar 17, 2022 16:41
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Honestly not sure that would even work on Serini. Her whole purpose in life is protecting the gates. If the gods destroy and remake the world to stop Redcloak, well, job well done, protected hers all the way to the end. Nah the entire idea is that she feels like Xylon can't be beaten so it's better to let him have the gate for a while rather than risking it getting destroyed and the world ending. She doesn't know that the gods are going to pull the plug on the world anyways if Xylon wins
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Mar 17, 2022 18:25
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I guess another strategy for preserving the world in that case could be to assist Xykon to seize control of the gates and use the Snarl to kill the gods while the godsmoot is still deadlocked, but you would have to be an extremely short-sighted and spiteful halfling to do that. Come to think of it, I think Serini probably has more allies we haven't seen yet that might get in the way of further explanations.
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Mar 17, 2022 18:50
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Dr Pepper posted:Nah the entire idea is that she feels like Xylon can't be beaten so it's better to let him have the gate for a while rather than risking it getting destroyed and the world ending. Serini is part of the original adventuring team and presumably knows everything that the gods know about the Snarl. If the Snarl escapes, the world doesn't just end, it's unmade. Even the gods destroying it to re-bind the Snarl would still result in many souls being consigned to oblivion. The gods blowing everything up just kills everyone and sends them to their respective afterlives (this is the entire point of Hel's gambit, all the dwarves who die this way will go to her because of the wager she made). It's a distinctly preferable fate, and plus, Serini's mission is to protect the Gates from being destroyed, not save the world. If the world ends with her Gate still standing, that's a W.
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Mar 17, 2022 18:56
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Serini is part of the original adventuring team and presumably knows everything that the gods know about the Snarl. If the Snarl escapes, the world doesn't just end, it's unmade. Even the gods destroying it to re-bind the Snarl would still result in many souls being consigned to oblivion. The gods blowing everything up just kills everyone and sends them to their respective afterlives (this is the entire point of Hel's gambit, all the dwarves who die this way will go to her because of the wager she made). It's a distinctly preferable fate, and plus, Serini's mission is to protect the Gates from being destroyed, not save the world. If the world ends with her Gate still standing, that's a W. Serini doesn't know about the millions of worlds that came before, right?
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Mar 17, 2022 20:54
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I'm pretty sure Serini knows about as much as The Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard. Probably not up to speed on the Godsmoot, definitely none of the poo poo only Durkon was told. E: v also important Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 17, 2022 |
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Mar 17, 2022 21:00
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…and nothing at all about the world-within-the-rift, which only the oots crew know about.
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Mar 17, 2022 21:44
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Serini is part of the original adventuring team and presumably knows everything that the gods know about the Snarl. If the Snarl escapes, the world doesn't just end, it's unmade. Even the gods destroying it to re-bind the Snarl would still result in many souls being consigned to oblivion. The gods blowing everything up just kills everyone and sends them to their respective afterlives (this is the entire point of Hel's gambit, all the dwarves who die this way will go to her because of the wager she made). It's a distinctly preferable fate, and plus, Serini's mission is to protect the Gates from being destroyed, not save the world. If the world ends with her Gate still standing, that's a W. I was under the impression that if the Gods destroy the world, all the souls will be safe. They'll have time to gather up all the souls then gather back up the fragments of Creation and use them to once again ensnare the Snarl.
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Mar 17, 2022 21:48
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Sky Shadowing posted:I was under the impression that if the Gods destroy the world, all the souls will be safe. They'll have time to gather up all the souls then gather back up the fragments of Creation and use them to once again ensnare the Snarl. The souls are ‘safe’, though as things stand the dwarves will (nearly) all end up going to Hel, and the dark one isn’t expected to survive, so the chance to build a permanent prison for the snarl would be lost.
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Mar 17, 2022 22:20
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DoctorTristan posted:The souls are ‘safe’, though as things stand the dwarves will (nearly) all end up going to Hel, and the dark one isn’t expected to survive, so the chance to build a permanent prison for the snarl would be lost. Yeah, the gods who think they can have another new god rise are honestly some of the cruelest gods thinking about how the Dark One actually came into being
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Mar 17, 2022 23:02
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Regardless of the fate of everybody's eternal souls, everybody in the world dying and being destroyed so the world has to begin anew is still bad. Better than everybody going into oblivion and there being no universe forevermore, which is what Redcloak's plan will bring, but still bad.
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Mar 18, 2022 00:58
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MikeJF posted:She's an epic rogue, I assume her sense-bullshit-ometer is off the scales? Like maybe Haley could bluff her but if all of the order seem to be telling the truth it's probably true. Okay but consider rich writes them like real people instead of stat blocks
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Mar 18, 2022 01:03
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There was also that thing with Haley's dad where his paranoia left him unable to believe her about Elan, and the fact that she was trying to tell him the truth instead of bluffing meant that it was even harder to convince him. Expert lying doesn't help with truth telling.
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Mar 18, 2022 01:16
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Dr Pepper posted:Nah the entire idea is that she feels like Xylon can't be beaten so it's better to let him have the gate for a while rather than risking it getting destroyed and the world ending. Given that it's been brought up repeatedly at this point, it seems like the core problem is that Serini thinks that beating Xykon is impossible. She feels that a fight with Xykon only has two possible outcomes: Xykon killing everyone who challenges him, or the Gate being destroyed as a side effect of the fight. It doesn't help that she knows quite well that both the paladins and the Order have failed to beat Xykon and been willing to destroy the Gates in order to keep them from villains. Even if they tell her about the gods being ready to destroy the world to keep Redcloak away from the Gate, she won't believe them easily. Not just because distrust is practically a rogue class feature in OOTS, but because she can't accept it. Her whole approach here is informed by the fact that she knows she can't take Xykon, and she's pretty drat sure there's no one else out there who can either. Everything else is just reasoning backwards from that to come up with a solution where she can tell herself she's defending the Gates without getting herself killed by Xykon. She needs it to be okay for Xykon to take the Gate, because she's concluded from the start that defeating Xykon is impossible.
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Mar 18, 2022 03:13
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I wonder if Kraagor being a dwarf and all the dwarves getting turbo hosed by Hel has any part in convincing Serini. Yes, she is brutally logical, but I think getting her to help the Order will involve getting some feelings shoved into her perfect equation.
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Mar 18, 2022 03:28
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Kraagor himself won't be caught in the Hel deal, though, he's either already in Valhalla or dissolved by the Snarl. (Probably the latter?)
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Mar 18, 2022 03:53
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he got sealed in there alive and pulled a Durkon on the Snarl. That's Oops All Dwarves World on the other side of the rift
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Mar 18, 2022 06:26
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Vizuyos posted:Given that it's been brought up repeatedly at this point, it seems like the core problem is that Serini thinks that beating Xykon is impossible. She feels that a fight with Xykon only has two possible outcomes: Xykon killing everyone who challenges him, or the Gate being destroyed as a side effect of the fight. It doesn't help that she knows quite well that both the paladins and the Order have failed to beat Xykon and been willing to destroy the Gates in order to keep them from villains. Convincing Sirini really is an important warm-up to winning over Redcloak, considering how badly that went the first go round. Just in this case its about breaking through despair rather than pride.
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Mar 18, 2022 08:10
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thighlandertwo posted:Convincing Sirini really is an important warm-up to winning over Redcloak, considering how badly that went the first go round. Just in this case its about breaking through despair rather than pride. Oh, good catch
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Mar 18, 2022 08:20
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Is there any in-universe reason to think that Serini is wrong in her assessment of Xykons strength? Given his history, it seems like a reasonable belief to me. We the readers know that because Xykon is the villain in a story, the OotS will beat him in the end, but the characters themselves can’t rely on that (other than Elan and his dad, of course)
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Mar 18, 2022 10:25
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Zetetica posted:Is there any in-universe reason to think that Serini is wrong in her assessment of Xykons strength? Given his history, it seems like a reasonable belief to me. Kinda sorta. Like, Xykon has been beaten before in this comic. Twice! He’s clearly not unstoppable. In a vacuum he should win against the Order but fights do not happen in a vacuum.
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Mar 18, 2022 11:05
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Captain Oblivious posted:Kinda sorta. Like, Xykon has been beaten before in this comic. Twice! He’s clearly not unstoppable. He was also comprehensively beaten right before he became a lich. Like, so thoroughly beaten that if it wasn't for Redcloak, there was no conceivable way for him to turn things around. He's just been phenomenally lucky that a) he had a deus ex machina, b) the guy trying to kill him didn't understand lich rules. c) Miko really, really sucked.
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Mar 18, 2022 12:53
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Zetetica posted:Is there any in-universe reason to think that Serini is wrong in her assessment of Xykons strength? Given his history, it seems like a reasonable belief to me. The Order beat him at the Dungeon of Dorukan, but hopefully Serini wasn't scrying on that, because knowing exactly why that particular Gate was destroyed would be an extremely negative mark against the Order's trustworthiness. Other than that, the only time the Order has managed to clash with Xykon in any meaningful way was at Azure City, where Xykon effortlessly swept through all the living defenders, including both the Order of the Stick and the entire Sapphire Guard. Soon Kim's legion of ghost-paladins did kick Xykon's rear end pretty hard, but they're gone now because (once again) someone destroyed the Gate when they didn't need to, and Serini pretty clearly doesn't think she has anything on that level. There's also the fact that the Order wrecked Girard's Gate because they'd gotten their asses kicked hard enough by the Linear Guild Featuring Tarquin that they didn't think they could even defend the Gate from the Guild, let alone from Xykon. Even though Roy's been generally confident about their chances of taking on Xykon, they couldn't even reliably handle Tarquin and friends, who were strong but definitely not on Xykon's level.
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Mar 18, 2022 14:38
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Vizuyos posted:The Order beat him at the Dungeon of Dorukan, but hopefully Serini wasn't scrying on that, because knowing exactly why that particular Gate was destroyed would be an extremely negative mark against the Order's trustworthiness. Azure City had a few disadvantages for the Order, though. 1) It wasn't a "party goes into the dungeon to kick something's rear end", but a full-scale siege with multiple fronts and the Order divided. This would be proper Order vs Evil. 2) It wasn't "Order vs. Team Evil", it was Xykon vs Roy, in a situation where Roy had plentiful disadvantages such as "not having a zombie dragon" and "not being able to fly". While Team Evil might be doing some Batman-level prepping right now (even if that is out of characater), the advantages are not likely to be as insanely stacked as Azure City. 3) It was largely low-level paladins directly guarding the gate, who are no match for an already-epic wizard.
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Mar 18, 2022 14:56
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Xykon can barely be bothered to remember that Roy exists. No way he has any specific planning for the order of the stick. But the order is planning for xykon very specifically. It will make sense when they win. I like how team evil represents the kind of power gaming that works to establish raw personal power. An epic level sorcerer lich who made synergistic magic items. A very high level cleric with an artifact. Some broken monster from a poorly thought out splat book. Meanwhile everyone in the order of the stick feels like a character made mainly to have fun.
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Mar 18, 2022 15:35
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Xykon’s biggest strength, other than his absurd raw power level, is people underestimating him. He absolutely has a Batman gambit he’ll pull out when he appears to be losing, and the Order will deserve their victory when, unlike everyone who posed a threat to Xykon in the past, they planned for that.
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Mar 18, 2022 15:44
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Xykon’s biggest strength, other than his absurd raw power level, is people underestimating him. He absolutely has a Batman gambit he’ll pull out when he appears to be losing, and the Order will deserve their victory when, unlike everyone who posed a threat to Xykon in the past, they planned for that.
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Mar 18, 2022 15:47
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| # ? Jun 8, 2024 07:28 |
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Zulily and GDE make good and correct points, and another reason to think the Order can/will in fact beat Xykon is the preview of Roy's puissance vs evil undead spellcasters we saw when he took on Durkula (as someone observed long ago upthread).
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Mar 18, 2022 16:55
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