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Mar 18, 2022 16:02
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For those keeping score at home here’s the stances we’ve got from Ted Rall; Military aid to Ukraine: Bad General aid to Ukraine: Bad Sanctions on Russia: Bad Doing nothing so Ted Rall can keep getting paid: Good
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Mar 18, 2022 16:04
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Churchill's role in defeating a fascist dictator, perhaps? Somehow I don't think they would extend the same comparison to the leader of the country that played a much larger role in defeating the nazis 
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Mar 18, 2022 16:15
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Ted is right that sanctions harm the common people and only indirectly affect the choices of their leaders through the pain inflicted on them. He’s also right about democrats not caring about people and US imperialism. He’s wrong about everything else.
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Mar 18, 2022 16:16
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Fister Roboto posted:Somehow I don't think they would extend the same comparison to the leader of the country that played a much larger role in defeating the nazis Germany?
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Mar 18, 2022 17:16
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I AM GRANDO posted:Ted is right that sanctions harm the common people and only indirectly affect the choices of their leaders through the pain inflicted on them. He’s also right about democrats not caring about people and US imperialism. He’s wrong about everything else. https://twitter.com/clickhole/status/1129144515120566273
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Mar 18, 2022 17:17
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Hunt11 posted:He became PM after Norway was invaded and during the battle of France. And happily his first act as PM was to sack the guy who was in charge of the defense of Norway: First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill
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Mar 18, 2022 17:30
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Raised By Birds posted:Nick Anderson This global map of pornhub searches reveals an interesting trend. I would have expected the top result in America to be "Hentai (Biden's Fault)" or "Step Sister (Biden's Fault)".
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Mar 18, 2022 17:46
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I know next to nothing about Biden and hentai but im like 99% sure the first didn't cause the second.
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Mar 18, 2022 17:50
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I'm starting to turn on Gorrell. He's not good, but he continues to top himself. It's incredible how he can so actively make no effort. That takes effort. Also, seeing the outright propaganda coming out of Rall is uncomfortable. It's important it keeps getting posted. I don't think we have any other blatant propaganda and it's good to use as a point of comparison I find, even if it's incredibly incompetent.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:01
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This whole thread is propaganda. There’s very little in any of these cartoons that hasn’t been workshopped by a press office somewhere, even if the cartoonists only receive it through a fox news broadcast.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:23
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The thing about Gorrell is yeah, he is extremely low effort and just does it and is done with his daily assignment. But what the hell is his editor doing? Are thry just like "yeah, whatever, no one looks at this poo poo anyways" and approves it?
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Mar 18, 2022 18:36
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100YrsofAttitude posted:I'm starting to turn on Gorrell. He's not good, but he continues to top himself. It's incredible how he can so actively make no effort. That takes effort. It's important to remember that Rall has always, always been propaganda, for as long as the thread has been around. There are no good Ralls. It's just that in this moment, he's not as effective in targeting his audience, which is demographically close to this forum. I AM GRANDO posted:This whole thread is propaganda. There’s very little in any of these cartoons that hasn’t been workshopped by a press office somewhere, even if the cartoonists only receive it through a fox news broadcast. There is a very significant qualitative difference between direct, state-funded misinformation and disruption programming and the vast majority of the stuff in this thread.
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Mar 18, 2022 18:44
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Discendo Vox posted:There is a very significant qualitative difference between direct, state-funded misinformation and disruption programming and the vast majority of the stuff in this thread. I'm sceptical of the idea that the fact that propaganda is being produced by a state with malicious intentions makes it intrinsically worse than the same being produced by private organisations.
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Mar 18, 2022 19:00
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seiferguy posted:The thing about Gorrell is yeah, he is extremely low effort and just does it and is done with his daily assignment. I mean, if I was an editor for a political cartoonist I'd have the exact same attitude. The only two things they probably care about are 1) is it porn? (this is why Muir doesn't get published in papers) and 2) does it say things I agree with? As long as it pushes right wing views they don't give a gently caress what it looks like.
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Mar 18, 2022 19:02
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 Guardian:  "Steve Bell on the sacking of 800 British crew by P&O Ferries – The ferry operator has axed the jobs of 800 British seafarers after stopping all its sailings and planning to use cheaper agency staff to crew its ships" After Géricault. Telegraph:  Traitors, scum and patriots: was this Putin's most Stalin-esque speech to date? Matt:  Independent:  Ukraine theatre hit by airstrike where hundreds were sheltering had ‘children’ written on pavement in Russian Times:  Ukraine crisis provides opportunity for Conservatives to roll back ‘wokery’, says Jacob Rees-Mogg Evening Standard:  BBC Comic Relief 2022: History of Red Nose Day, hosts, what is the schedule and how to get involved?
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Mar 18, 2022 19:08
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Trapezium Dave posted:First Dog on the Moon: Disappearing into flood water and floating in a tent: the incredible survival stories of pets
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Mar 18, 2022 19:12
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Discendo Vox posted:He’s still a Sputnik contractor at least as of two days ago: It does mention that Russia Today was scuppered and that he is now a freelance contractor for Sputnik, but I hit my quota of reading Ted Rall words before figuring out if the former affected his bottom line or if he holds the positon he's always held.
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Mar 18, 2022 19:25
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Vagabong posted:I'm sceptical of the idea that the fact that propaganda is being produced by a state with malicious intentions makes it intrinsically worse than the same being produced by private organisations. Michael Ramirez isn't writing things to deceive people, and he's not doing on behalf of a larger organization than his newspaper, and at most, guessing at what Sheldon Adelson prefers on a given subject. This doesn't make his beliefs less reprehensible, but they're not part of a programmatic effort to poo poo up democratic discourse. Zulily Zoetrope posted:It does mention that Russia Today was scuppered and that he is now a freelance contractor for Sputnik, but I hit my quota of reading Ted Rall words before figuring out if the former affected his bottom line or if he holds the positon he's always held. There's also plenty of ways that Russian and other state propaganda is run through less public means; there are a number of "independent" news sites with opaque funding that seem to only re-mediate their messaging. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Mar 18, 2022 |
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Mar 18, 2022 19:31
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Discendo Vox posted:Michael Ramirez isn't writing things to deceive people,
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Mar 18, 2022 19:32
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Terrible Opinions posted:oh come on now, not even Ramirez is stupid enough to believe all the things he draws. He does in fact believe the things he says, stupid, ideologically blinded or otherwise. I think perhaps people are taking the "marching orders" jokes much too literally; a lot of the politoonists use the same jokes, but it's because they're hacks writing to a short deadline who are marinating in the same general media ecosystem, not because they're getting orders from above. At most, their beliefs are coming from a broadly similar set of sources and are mediated, but they're not uniform. For example, Ramirez is notable for holding clearly distinct opinions among the morass of right wing political cartoonists that align him with older paleoconservative, interventionist viewpoints. This has been consistent as he's worked for completely different newspapers, owned by different people, over the years.
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Mar 18, 2022 19:39
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 Ben Garrison posted:DEATH AND TAXES, CAN YOU ESCAPE? It’s also such a contradictory rant. These guys learned they don’t have to pay taxes…but got sent to jail. But the IRS is a chaotic mess and you’re likely to not go to jail! Except for those guys that got sent jail. I think the lightning strike damaged his brain.
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Mar 18, 2022 19:53
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Pants Donkey posted:
This is the second one promoting the same sovcit scam; it's likely paid promotion, and it's likely paying off.
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Mar 18, 2022 19:59
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Pants Donkey posted:
this is borderline AGC since the IRS is understaffed, underfunded, and rarely goes after the types who complain the loudest about it
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Mar 18, 2022 20:01
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I think its presumptuous to assume that the cartoonists in this thread (outside of Rall) always believe fully in the arguments they forward in their cartoons, over say, aiming to further their own political goals by muddying the waters on an issue or other means of portraying their subject deceptively.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:03
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Discendo Vox posted:He does in fact believe the things he says, stupid, ideologically blinded or otherwise. I think perhaps people are taking the "marching orders" jokes much too literally; a lot of the politoonists use the same jokes, but it's because they're hacks writing to a short deadline who are marinating in the same general media ecosystem, not because they're getting orders from above. At most, their beliefs are coming from a broadly similar set of sources and are mediated, but they're not uniform. The media ecosystem that forms their worldview is the source of their orders. I think a lot of the cartoonists we see have loose relationships with truth and sincerity, such that they approach their work as crafting a win for their side or forwarding a narrative that they think of as serving the interests of their team as they understand it. I don’t think it’s possible to say whether or not Ramirez or anyone else in this thread genuinely believes a claim they make, because they work backward from the conclusion they want and construct the claim to serve that conclusion. McCoy wants abortion banned because he wants to hurt democrats and feel like he’s winning: from there, he searches out a claim that serves those interests, like having a well-dressed black woman calmly say that Margaret Sanger was into eugenics and thus white people who support abortion rights are in favor of black genocide. Does he believe any of those claims? To him, their truth or falsehood don’t matter because they’re tools for his specific end. I guess I don’t see how the above process is any different from propaganda. It’s true that nobody is paying him directly to spread lies about abortion, but there are definitely millionaires pumping money into orgs and publications that keep him fed and drawing because he serves the interests of those millionaires. Ted Rall would probably tell you that he genuinely believes everything he writes, and I doubt there’s a political officer assigned to him making sure he’s working from an approved list of talking points. They like him because he slings poo poo, same as the Mercers liking McCoy and Ramirez for the poo poo they sling.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:23
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Discendo Vox posted:For example, Ramirez is notable for holding clearly distinct opinions among the morass of right wing political cartoonists that align him with older paleoconservative, interventionist viewpoints. This has been consistent as he's worked for completely different newspapers, owned by different people, over the years. Ramirez has been one of the most consistently pro-vaccine right wing cartoonists in the thread, even when every right wing media source was going anti-vax. He also really hates the Trump worship from the right; he'll make cartoons defending Trump if the Dems are saying he's bad, but overall he was still fairly critical of Trump and has made cartoons saying the Republicans need to be respectable again. Hell, Ramirez is (I think) the only right wing cartoonist who straight up said that "Stop the Steal" was bullshit. Al Goodwyn is another fairly pro-vaccine cartoonist, and (I remember this because I was shocked by it) the only right wing cartoonist to say "Uh, gifts don't matter, Jesus is what's important about Christmas" when all the other right wing cartoonists were going "CHRISTMAS IS RUINED BECAUSE PRESENTS WILL BE DELIVERED LATE." Vagabong posted:I think its presumptuous to assume that the cartoonists in this thread (outside of Rall) always believe fully in the arguments they forward in their cartoons, over say, aiming to further their own political goals by muddying the waters on an issue or other means of portraying their subject deceptively. I think Pat Cross is another one that we can say fully believes the arguments he puts forth in his cartoons, because as was pointed out the other day, while other right wing cartoonists are going "We're just protecting kids from child sex traffickers!" about Desantis' anti-LGBT bill, Pat Cross was the one going "Yeah gay people are disgusting garbage and kids shouldn't be allowed to learn they exist."
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Mar 18, 2022 20:26
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There's no law that says you have to pay your taxes! They don't want you to know that you can stop paying tax and they can't harm a hair on your head, that's why they work so hard to suppress the truth by convicting all these tax protesters for tax evasion and putting them away for years and years.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:35
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I AM GRANDO posted:The media ecosystem that forms their worldview is the source of their orders. Because by this definition of propaganda, everything posted in any argument on SA is propaganda, because you can't prove definitively the sincerity of those making the arguments. You're requiring an (imputed) level of detachment for non-propaganda persuasive communication that can't be proven, ever, or simply assigning propaganda status to all persuasive communication. All media is not propaganda. Additionally, Ramirez, and the ecosystem of political cartoonists aren't paid by a "millionaires pumping money into orgs and publications"; it's not some unidentifiable bloc; it's not programmatic, it's not coordinated, and it's certainly not controlled by a government with a systemic agenda. We have specific information. Ramirez is paid by a syndicate and directly by the Las Vegas Review-Journal, which is owned by Sheldon Adelson. He's had the same positions when he was writing for other outlets, including those not owned by rich assholes. I AM GRANDO posted:Ted Rall would probably tell you that he genuinely believes everything he writes, and I doubt there’s a political officer assigned to him making sure he’s working from an approved list of talking points. They like him because he slings poo poo, same as the Mercers liking McCoy and Ramirez for the poo poo they sling. Ted Rall has an editor working for Sputnik who is in fact going to be working from a set of talking points. Noncompliant journalists get, under the best circumstances, fired. The state-operated program with the sole goal of promoting falsehoods, benefitting Russia's leaders and disrupting democratic discourse is not the same as a profit-motivated newspaper, however ideologically hosed up it may be. Rall is part of a single, cohesive state entity with specific, malign goals. Like, the whole reason 100YrsofAttitude posted about Rall was because, especially now, the difference is especially explicit. If you still feel the need to equivocate between RT and other outlets, then you need to reckon with why that is, and who benefits from your relativism about the intentions and sources of all news media.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:46
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All these organizations that were openly flaunting their tax fraud and then got hit for tax fraud were run by conservatives, and if that isn't evidence of conspiracy against the right, I don't know what is. Unrelatedly, according to my sponsors, it is actually cool and legal to commit tax fraud, go ahead and do it. Tell your friends!
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Mar 18, 2022 20:50
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Only a matter of time before Garrison went full sovcit. Also "Ice Cream Joe", really? That thing everyone hates and has negative associations with, ice cream.
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Mar 18, 2022 20:52
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Of course Rall believes everything he writes. It's because everything he writes can be traced back to how people don't respect noted genius Ted Rall, and the many impediments to his genius created by people solely out to get him because they don't recognize the genius of Ted Rall. This can even be linked to his tepid "gotcha" whataboutisms which are of course just examples of the genius of Ted Rall.
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Mar 18, 2022 21:16
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Discendo Vox posted:Because by this definition of propaganda, everything posted in any argument on SA is propaganda, because you can't prove definitively the sincerity of those making the arguments. You're requiring an (imputed) level of detachment for non-propaganda persuasive communication that can't be proven, ever, or simply assigning propaganda status to all persuasive communication. All media is not propaganda. I don’t think you can know what a person does or doesn’t believe, but you can test their output for consistency and notice, for example, that they often put a dick and balls on Michelle Obama or repeat other easily falsifiable untrue things for years. What is the definition of propagandist that we’re working with here? Does it come down to working directly for a state office that specifically strategizes about the interests of that state? What is at stake in that distinction? You don’t have to write the answer out, but it would be useful if we’re going to get anywhere. I don’t think it’s any rehabilitation or defense of Rall to call Stone Toss or The Tuttle Twins propaganda. Is Ted Rall uniquely dangerous, as compared to Stone Toss, Ben Garrison, or The The Tuttle Twins? What constitutes the danger? I guess I have to admit that I don’t think he poses any unique danger, or any danger at all. What am I missing? It doesn’t seem like relativism to me.
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Mar 18, 2022 21:47
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I AM GRANDO posted:I don’t think you can know what a person does or doesn’t believe, but you can test their output for consistency and notice, for example, that they often put a dick and balls on Michelle Obama or repeat other easily falsifiable untrue things for years. You are separating Rall from the state institution and the goals and agentic power he operates on behalf of, which exists purely for the purpose of misrepresentation and disruption. The Russian state is different in its motivations and abilities than Sheldon Adelson. At the same time, you're combining all conservative political cartoonists into an undifferentiated and shared deceptive mass. As Twelve by Pies also describes, that's just not accurate to how these people or their backers function. Stonetoss is at least a better example for knowingly operating in some degree of bad faith; however, none of the three you've shifted to is part of an institutional force equivalent to a government; neither operates at the behest of a programmatic goal of making the target audience believe things that their leaders know to be false, or to embrace epistemic relativism. They, too, are working in service of an entity that is a) much, much smaller in scale and b) ultimately trying to get their audience to share their own beliefs. But there's a reason you've had to shift to a recruiter for hate groups, a mercenary nutjob and a state-level libertarian grift; this is already separated from the news media apparatus, with the explicit goals of accurately conveying the news and, you know, making a profit doing so. Again, if you still feel the need to equivocate between these entities and their motivations, then you need to reckon with why that is, and who benefits from your relativism about the intentions and sources of information.
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Mar 18, 2022 22:11
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Discendo Vox posted:You are separating Rall from the state institution and the goals and agentic power he operates on behalf of, which exists purely for the purpose of misrepresentation and disruption. The Russian state is different in its motivations and abilities than Sheldon Adelson. At the same time, you're combining all conservative political cartoonists into an undifferentiated and shared deceptive mass. As Twelve by Pies also describes, that's just not accurate to how these people or their backers function. Are you accusing me of something? How can we tell if someone is operating in bad faith? I’m asking you to clarify your terms so that I can understand the distinctions you’re making, but you respond by telling me that I’m shifting around in defense of some particular argument that you won’t identify directly. What’s going on here? We might end up disagreeing and we might have incompatible premises, but that doesn’t mean that either of us is being dishonest. I’m asking you those questions because I’m trying to find the points of distinction you’re assuming, not because I’m trying to invalidate your argument by asserting there is no difference between Ted Rall and other cartoonists. I’m asking for clarification on what the difference is. How do you define propaganda and why does the distinction matter? Nome of those are rhetorical questions—I’m not asserting that the distinction doesn’t matter by asking what it is.
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Mar 18, 2022 22:30
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Again, Rall is working for a state actor that has the explicit programmatic goal of spreading things it knows and believes are lies and disrupting civic discourse. None of your other examples in news media or elsewhere do that; they believe what they say and promote their own beliefs or accordant beliefs, even if they say it dishonestly, and they are not part of anything like a cohesive operation, and they do not possess the power of a state. One of the primary operating goals of the line of propaganda which Russia in particular uses is to get people to equivocate about the validity and intentions of sources of information, to stop making distinctions between them and select based on what feels ideologically appealing, because it accelerates the destruction of civic discourse and makes the targets easier to manipulate. By failing to distinguish between RT and the New York Times, or between Russia and the Sulzberger family, you are demonstrating that this approach has been at least partially effective in its goals. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Mar 18, 2022 |
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Mar 18, 2022 22:43
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Lord Hydronium posted:Only a matter of time before Garrison went full sovcit. Wait was he not full sovcit before?
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Mar 18, 2022 22:51
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 Rowe:  Broelman:  Australian PM’s department drops widely mocked ‘phallic’ women’s network logo (Guardian) This is the logo that they dropped:  Moir:  Dyson:  Clive Palmer, owner of the United Australia Party (far right wing minor party about anti-vax and freedom freedom freedom) and mining billionaire who wants to rebuild the Titanic. He's a presence in the upcoming election because he's bankrolling about a zillion ads in every format. Warren Brown:  Leak, Son of Leak:  Knight:  This is the famous photo where the previous Australian of the Year Grace Tame did not smile for the photo with Scott Morrison due to his lack of action on dealing with the parliamentary culture towards women, except with opposition leader Anthony Albanese instead. Leunig: 
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Mar 18, 2022 23:02
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Discendo Vox posted:Again, Rall is working for a state actor that has the explicit programmatic goal of spreading things it knows and believes are lies and disrupting civic discourse. None of your other examples in news media or elsewhere do that; they believe what they say and promote their own beliefs or accordant beliefs, even if they say it dishonestly, and they are not part of anything like a cohesive operation, and they do not possess the power of a state. You feel that Russian propaganda is a legitimate threat to civic discourse in the United States because it is calculated for that purpose, while other cartoonists who do not take orders from a propaganda office are not legitimate threats to civic discourse because they are not self-aware agents deliberately delivering a message they themselves do not believe? Do you feel that the serious problems Americans have distinguishing truth from falsehood or the strong preference many Americans have to consume media that affirm their ideological preferences would go away or become manageable if Russian propaganda disappeared? I have to state directly that I don’t believe that, that I believe our serious problems follow naturally, probably inevitably from the state of discourse among Americans alone, from their susceptibility to bad reasoning, from their poor educations, from their extreme atomization and anome, from having to live in a nakedly materialistic and profoundly stupid culture that cannot relieve their suffering or give them anything worth living for. I don’t know how you would prove that Russian propaganda has accelerated any of that, but I am open to reading the arguments. What do you propose as an alternative to this epistemic relativism, and is there any version of the above that you would entertain as reasonable? One concern I will voice with your argument is that it seems to have a very high degree of epistemic closure, such that one can’t challenge your premises without becoming open to dismissal on the basis that anyone who disagrees has been compromised by Russian propaganda. Is it possible to disagree with you in a way you will acknowledge as legitimate- that is, is your position falsifiable?
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Mar 18, 2022 23:05
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Ted Rall has to be among the least effective propagandists who have ever lived and no amount of Russian money behind him will make his terribly drawn "America bad" worse than any of the poo poo we regularly see in this thread demonising trans people, to give just one example.
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Mar 19, 2022 00:58
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