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Everyone woke up one morning to the news that yes, Russia actually is that lovely. This is not to say that there weren't a whole lot of capitalists happy to do business with the war-mongering, homophobic authoritarians all this time, some who are still having a hard time quitting him (either because they're secretly the ideal or... money, really), or that the capitalists won't go back to that trough when it's deemed safe to do so. But some claws got dug into leftists who should have known better, too.
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Mar 19, 2022 20:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:oh absolutely! Is there a successful incidence of that happening before that you can cite
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Mar 19, 2022 20:52
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Is there a successful incidence of that happening before that you can cite apartheid South Africa? Though I'm hardly an expert on that history and they weren't single handedly responsible for ending apartheid. Also not an invasion.
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Mar 19, 2022 21:01
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Depends how you feel about Juche I guess The current sanctions against Russia are far heavier than anything imposed on anyone in a very long time, so it's a bit of a test case.
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Mar 19, 2022 21:02
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Fritz the Horse posted:apartheid South Africa? Though I'm hardly an expert on that history and they weren't single handedly responsible for ending apartheid. Also not an invasion. Doesn't really answer his question (sa wasnt starting foreign wars of aggression) though it is an example of sanctions happening and then democratic regime change happening afterwards
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Mar 19, 2022 21:08
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Fritz the Horse posted:apartheid South Africa? Though I'm hardly an expert on that history and they weren't single handedly responsible for ending apartheid. Also not an invasion. There's some academic disagreement on this. Mandela and other leaders of the opposition think it's so, but also many folks cite Mandela and the opposition being far more responsible. TheIncredulousHulk posted:I do find it extremely weird that a terrible but relatively unremarkable imperial crime is suddenly world-shattering in a situation where the victims are white for once. I've never seen anybody accused of being, say, a bin Salmanist collaborator for shrugging off the genocide in Yemen we've been party to since Obama as unfortunate but unpreventable and maybe we'll get to doing something about it in the future but right now is a no-go I agree that the racial politics of this are pretty obvious. Apparently it's not horseback cops with whips when the refugees are white.
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Mar 19, 2022 21:41
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:I do find it extremely weird that a terrible but relatively unremarkable imperial crime is suddenly world-shattering in a situation where the victims are white for once. I've never seen anybody accused of being, say, a bin Salmanist collaborator for shrugging off the genocide in Yemen we've been party to since Obama as unfortunate but unpreventable and maybe we'll get to doing something about it in the future but right now is a no-go I don't think the majority on this forum is going to disagree that bin Salman and Saudi Arabia shouldn't also be sanctioned and ostracized, but its just weird how DSA is picking such an odd take on Russian aggression. Nobody here is going to argue we shouldn't be telling the Saudis to gently caress off with their horrid issues on Yemen and that the US should be siding with Yemen in this. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Mar 19, 2022 |
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Mar 19, 2022 21:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Doesn't really answer his question (sa wasnt starting foreign wars of aggression) though it is an example of sanctions happening and then democratic regime change happening afterwards Angola, Zambia and Namibia count for these purposes, I think.
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Mar 19, 2022 22:05
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I honestly can't give a poo poo what powerless orgs like DSA or internet tankies think when they have no ability to enact change and the people with real power have even more monstrous beliefs. I think any leftists overly concerned about the moral crimes of the powerless should evaluate why they are so bothered by it when it has no effect on the material world and there are far worse people who do have an effect on things.
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Mar 19, 2022 |
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Mar 19, 2022 22:27
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Fritz the Horse posted:apartheid South Africa? Though I'm hardly an expert on that history and they weren't single handedly responsible for ending apartheid. Also not an invasion. Someone linked me this paper on the subject earlier.
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Mar 19, 2022 23:02
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Jaxyon posted:There's some academic disagreement on this. Mandela and other leaders of the opposition think it's so, but also many folks cite Mandela and the opposition being far more responsible. The CBP never whipped anyone, even the guy who took those photos says so. https://www.kxan.com/news/texas/photographer-behind-controversial-migrant-photos-claims-agents-werent-whipping-anyone/ Paul Ratje posted:The photographs, which were taken Sunday, appear to show agents on horses with whips in hand. The photos caused outrage, as they appear to show Border Patrol agents whipping migrants from certain angles. But photographer Paul Ratje said he and his colleagues never saw agents whipping anyone.
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Mar 19, 2022 23:36
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PeterCat posted:The CBP never whipped anyone, even the guy who took those photos says so. Ah, "vigorously using their reigns while chasing down refugees on horseback, in pursuit of policy that violates both US and international law" My mistake  edit: https://twitter.com/johnholman100/status/1439948289680363527 But I stand corrected, no whipping here. Do you think whipping was central to the point of my post? Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 19, 2022 |
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Mar 19, 2022 23:39
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CommieGIR posted:I don't think the majority on this forum is going to disagree that bin Salman and Saudi Arabia shouldn't also be sanctioned and ostracized, but its just weird how DSA is picking such an odd take on Russian aggression. We're like a page removed from someone More Convenient Seasoning about Palestine dude. "I don't disagree Saudi is bad" is a worthless sentiment and nobody cares. It's not a line in the sand for anybody but Ukraine is expected to be or else you're a Putin stooge. You yourself just posted about the horror of Russian warcrimes and how they prove it's impossible to negotiate with Russia despite those being not remotely unusual by the crimes of empires We've had people in this very thread argue that Desert Storm was good, actually, and that's a war that featured the Highway of Death, deliberate destruction of water sanitation plants, and a shelter for women and children being bombed so heavily that rescuers had to wade through a layer of grease on the floor only to find the remains of the families hiding there had been fused together None of that is a line in the sand for left-liberals but even before Russia invaded, it was seen as a unique aggression that must be stopped at all costs. Do you honestly think we'd be having the same conversation about it if the victims were brown? Come on, dude
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Mar 20, 2022 00:05
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Jaxyon posted:Ah, "vigorously using their reigns while chasing down refugees on horseback, in pursuit of policy that violates both US and international law" You're the one who mentioned "horseback cops with whips." It's media deception and you're continuing to spread it. It's Ok though, the administration fixed the policy by taking away the horses. But I notice you don't mention VP Harris who has been put in charge of the SouthWest Border. PeterCat fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 00:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:I honestly can't give a poo poo what powerless orgs like DSA or internet tankies think when they have no ability to enact change and the people with real power have even more monstrous beliefs. I think any leftists overly concerned about the moral crimes of the powerless should evaluate why they are so bothered by it when it has no effect on the material world and there are far worse people who do have an effect on things. I think it's less that they are powerless and more that they serve the exact role their powerful masters insist on. They did their job.
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Mar 20, 2022 00:27
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RBA Starblade posted:I think it's less that they are powerless and more that they serve the exact role their powerful masters insist on. They did their job. Could I request clarity here, are you implying that the DSA is somehow funded by the Russian state?
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Mar 20, 2022 00:29
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:We're like a page removed from someone More Convenient Seasoning about Palestine dude. "I don't disagree Saudi is bad" is a worthless sentiment and nobody cares. It's not a line in the sand for anybody but Ukraine is expected to be or else you're a Putin stooge. You yourself just posted about the horror of Russian warcrimes and how they prove it's impossible to negotiate with Russia despite those being not remotely unusual by the crimes of empires And we were wrong when we did it, but somehow we're back at "Two wrongs make some sort of right" logic that makes no god damned sense. And the DSA pretending its logical to argue that Russia is both willing and able to negotiate in good faith is what we're discussing, and whether leftists are also outraged about Yemen and Desert Storm (they most likely are, even if pushing the Iraqi's out of the UAE was also good). This seems incredibly nitpicky.
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Mar 20, 2022 00:32
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CommieGIR posted:And we were wrong when we did it, but somehow we're back at "Two wrongs make some sort of right" logic that makes no god damned sense. Do you consider the US willing and able to negotiate in good faith despite its century-long list of imperial crimes? If so, why? And what makes the war in Ukraine, something that will not touch US soil, unique enough that it's on par with 9/11 or the 2008 crash, as was claimed? The context of the discussion that the DSA even came up in is that forums poster How are u stated that he finds the Palestinian genocide troublesome, but not so troublesome that he's unwilling to withdraw his support from a political party that actively funds Israel and will defend it viciously, but feels that Ukraine is a line in the sand, and other posters agreed that yes, harm reduction rationale should not apply to the Russian invasion of Ukraine despite it being pretty unremarkable in the field of imperial violence. Would you personally vote for a politician who took an non-interventionist stance on it or is that a dealbreaker for you?
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Mar 20, 2022 00:48
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RBA Starblade posted:I think it's less that they are powerless and more that they serve the exact role their powerful masters insist on. They did their job. Who are their powerful masters?
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Mar 20, 2022 01:12
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There's the options we have, and the ones we need. The things we can do, vs what we need to do. I know, duh, but many of the arguments here are us swirling in one pool or another. I just had a heated discussion with my father, where we agreed that a certain fierce appetite for change and even sacrifice is needed amongst the people of the usa/world for the needle to budge enough. However, he wouldn't engage the frustrating topic of how we do that. Of how passionate likeminded forward thinking people are stymied and shut down at every junction if they lack overwhelming support. The way the status quo coalesces to protect itself, eschewing the supposed "choice" our vote symbolizes... and the way we are programmed to these "choices" from birth. Yknow, as soon as you start accruing debt. I asked him to apply his ideals to me, shall I vote harder, dedicate all my free time to political canvassing, do something reactive and destructive*? His answer seemed to be that I need to wait. *a rhetorical conversational device of course, I want to make things better The inertia and trajectory of this world dominating machine that we built, are born into, and have sole responsibility over (individually as living humans) has become mostly inured to change from regular people, or even the power of individual companies and nations. I guess I'm saying I've been reading listening and seeing people (who arguably devote more time to this world than most) bitterly fight for so long, maybe the obstacles set against us are just an incredible burden on even the most dedicated sincere individuals. The rigorous discussions do help shape and inform at least! BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 01:26
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PeterCat posted:You're the one who mentioned "horseback cops with whips." OK, "horseback cops without whips". My mistake. That doesn't really make it much less awful. Now, how does that change my point? quote:It's Ok though, the administration fixed the policy by taking away the horses. But I notice you don't mention VP Harris who has been put in charge of the SouthWest Border. Yes I didn't mention her. Why would that matter?
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Mar 20, 2022 01:32
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Gumball Gumption posted:Who are their powerful masters? Podcasters.
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Mar 20, 2022 03:00
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It's lol that Democrats are still looking at the struggling left and going "Who's funding them?!" as if literally the only reason anyone could not be giving the Democratic Party their rightful fealty is because they're paid to.
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Mar 20, 2022 03:24
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CommieGIR posted:And we were wrong when we did it, but somehow we're back at "Two wrongs make some sort of right" logic that makes no god damned sense.
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Mar 20, 2022 03:36
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if it turns out the real powerful masters of the DSA were inside us all along I'm going to be very disappointed
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Mar 20, 2022 04:30
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Nanomashoes posted:Podcasters. Big Podcast is shelling out millions upon millions of dollars in lobbying cash to make it okay for Felix Biederman to have a katana
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Mar 20, 2022 05:19
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's lol that Democrats are still looking at the struggling left and going "Who's funding them?!" as if literally the only reason anyone could not be giving the Democratic Party their rightful fealty is because they're paid to. Is that the only reason to support imperialism? I wonder.
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Mar 20, 2022 05:47
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RBA Starblade posted:Is that the only reason to support imperialism? I wonder. The boys on the Russian front lines are remembering there are communist reading groups all across America supporting them and they smile and know it's worth it.
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Mar 20, 2022 06:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Depends how you feel about Juche I guess I think there's reasons to be concerned that if the sanctions become too destructive, that they will have precedent in the impact of the Treaty of Versailles on Germany which obviously led to something much more darker and desperate down the road. In much the same way that Putin violated his promise that his actions would only defend the Donbass and Crimea, so too has the West violated its promise that the sanctions would only impact the oligarchs, and it's hard not to feel like this would only lead to worsened conditions on both fronts, more nationalism in Ukraine in response to the invasion (so much for denazification, but that was never the goal) and more nationalism in Russia (so much for pressuring Putin out of power, but that also was never the goal). I don't feel the DSA getting cold feet about just how credible economic punishment will be is all that unrealistic. It does leave open the question of what the West should do, but at the same time, there are plenty of conflicts the West and explicitly America feel no interest in intervening in whatsoever. Which conflicts are so irredeemable that they require an intervention of some kind, and which are to be ignored? If the United Nations had more collective authority, it'd be a moot point, but there's so much unilateral agency used that it feels like there's no world authority, only a team of rival bullies accusing the other of being the "real" bad guy.
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Mar 20, 2022 06:03
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I dont think its fair to compare the Ukraine war with either Yemen or Palestine. By all accounts Russia's offensive is untenable and certainly isn't going to turn into a decade long low intensity genocide like Palestine or Yemen. Even looking at Donbas after the take over its not great but still not on the same level. I also think its a bit of a moot point because DSA has no influence or canidates on that level of policy making, its the dumbest kind of purity politics.
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Mar 20, 2022 06:12
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Jaxyon posted:There's some academic disagreement on this. Mandela and other leaders of the opposition think it's so, but also many folks cite Mandela and the opposition being far more responsible. PeterCat posted:The CBP never whipped anyone, even the guy who took those photos says so. PeterCat posted:You're the one who mentioned "horseback cops with whips." Hang on, Jayxon didn't say they whipped them. He said they were horseback cops with whips, which is also what the article says. Or am I misunderstanding something? quote:“I’ve never seen them whip anyone,” Ratje said. “He was swinging it, but it can be misconstrued when you’re looking at the picture.”
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Mar 20, 2022 06:17
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RBA Starblade posted:Is that the only reason to support imperialism? I wonder. remember back when liberals were trembling in fear of a fascist takeover of Washington DC, and how many of those same people have gone from certainty that collaborating with fascists at home or abroad constitutes high treason, to proclaiming unwillingness to arm fascists abroad an indicator of treasonous intent? imagine that the same latitude such people extend to the term 'fascism' - one second the ultimate enemy that must be fought for fear it will topple all, the next a distasteful-but-welcome ally in a patriotic struggle against a geopolitical rival - was extended to other concepts by other people. with this in mind, you can understand that when 'sometimes you just gotta arm the nazis' is not only on the table but actively being supported by broad swathes of the public, there will be people responding 'no, in fact, my ideology holds that just about any option is better than arming nazis.' while it we cannot rule out the existence of your shadowy manipulator working their dread will through the DSA's messaging arm, my angle is both significantly more likely, AND saves us valuable time and effort imagining the remote castle where this mastermind is even now developing their next bizarrely poor-return-on-investment plot.
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Mar 20, 2022 08:17
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RBA Starblade posted:Is that the only reason to support imperialism? I wonder. Can you answer the question I asked please. Who do you believe is "behind" this? Do you possess any proof of this, or is it just you saying "it must be like this". I'm interested to know. Thank you.
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Mar 20, 2022 10:04
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:remember back when liberals were trembling in fear of a fascist takeover of Washington DC, and how many of those same people have gone from certainty that collaborating with fascists at home or abroad constitutes high treason, to proclaiming unwillingness to arm fascists abroad an indicator of treasonous intent? Ignoring all context and flattening everything down to "Ah-ha! Nazis! Both sides bad same-same!" does not make a strong argument, most especially when one side of that argument is regurgitated propaganda used as a laughably thin bullshit casus belli from a nation currently performing a ground invasion killing tens of thousands on all sides. Azov has been losing power and representation in the political process as people have been voting them out of office and not being receptive to their message. Meanwhile domestic American fascists did a little bit of a fucky wucky you may remember on January 6th and are rapidly ascendant because one of two major political parties is outright supporting them and calling for the destruction of the democratic process. Turns out context matters.
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Mar 20, 2022 13:26
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:remember back when liberals were trembling in fear of a fascist takeover of Washington DC, and how many of those same people have gone from certainty that collaborating with fascists at home or abroad constitutes high treason, to proclaiming unwillingness to arm fascists abroad an indicator of treasonous intent? You are right, Americans shouldn't have armed the Soviets in WWII because by supporting Stalin they also supported his raging anti-Semitism, and that's immoral.
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Mar 20, 2022 13:31
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steinrokkan posted:You are right, Americans shouldn't have armed the Soviets in WWII because by supporting Stalin they also supported his raging anti-Semitism, and that's immoral. Far more reason to feel bad allying with Winston Churchill, to be honest.
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Mar 20, 2022 14:03
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Probably Magic posted:Far more reason to feel bad allying with Winston Churchill, to be honest. Churchill was bad, but lets not get carried away. Stalin was worse. Not only in terms of death and misery to the Soviet people; he also allied with Hitler for quite a while there in return for part of Poland.
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Mar 20, 2022 14:24
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Sarcastr0 posted:Churchill was bad, but lets not get carried away. Stalin was worse. Ask the Indians about Churchill.
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Mar 20, 2022 14:33
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Ask the Indians about Churchill.
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Mar 20, 2022 14:35
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Sarcastr0 posted:Churchill was bad, but lets not get carried away. Stalin was worse. Are we forgetting about Indians or are they not included in the definition of "people" or what's going on
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Mar 20, 2022 14:41
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