|
Very good points! However, I meant specifically people being so fervently on Team Eren and Team Danaerys, then being shocked when the narrative goes "these guys are killing a shitton of people, maybe they shouldn't be unconditionally applauded." A lot of people seem really into the idea of big righteous slaughters like that, especially if done for what's presented as the right reasons, and I'd legit be curious on breakdowns of what leads to those sorts of fandoms.
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 20:56 |
|
|
The issues with both is imo execution. There isnt anything wrong with Jon putting Daenerys down but it all happening because she heard bells is insane. Similarly Eren going bad is fine but there was so much that was off, most notably the bizarre confirmation that he killed 80 percent (!!!) of the people on the planet in a speech bubble and how poorly done Armin brokering peace was. The most violent rejections of the AoT ending tend to come from betrayed Erehisu true believers tho. So it's a special case. No Wave fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Mar 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2022 16:21
|
|
|
The Bee posted:Very good points! However, I meant specifically people being so fervently on Team Eren and Team Danaerys, then being shocked when the narrative goes "these guys are killing a shitton of people, maybe they shouldn't be unconditionally applauded." A lot of people seem really into the idea of big righteous slaughters like that, especially if done for what's presented as the right reasons, and I'd legit be curious on breakdowns of what leads to those sorts of fandoms. I think it doesn't really help that both series are considered to have pretty bad/awful endings overall, relative to what came before
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2022 16:32
|
|
|
Staltran posted:Both of those examples both fit the established characterization and served the story, though. Yeah, I wasn't saying they were bad examples. I was responding to the idea that viewers want righteous murder, when I feel they want to be shocked/caught off guard/have their expectations defied. The examples I provided were very much examples of murders that weren't righteous; they were also meant to demonstrate how the "shock value" escalates, separate from a judgement of whether or not it does it well. Many adult shows rely on ever-escalating violence to produce that "holy poo poo that just happened" feeling, and the story often suffers because of it. We see what happens when you have one (outrageous violence) without the other (good writing) in the final season of Game of Thrones, but it happens to a lot of works that operate off increasing those kinds of stakes. Dexter is one example. Sons of Anarchy is arguably another (I wouldn't disagree with anyone who thinks the show was trash even in season one). Breaking Bad is a good counter example--it is less about the body count and more about the evolution of the main character and what he is willing to do. Edit: Dangit, new replies covered some of my point. Prowler fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Mar 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2022 17:31
|
|
|
I turned off episode 25 because it was so deadly boring. Bits like that are fine in manga because they can be read at a good clip, but making an entire episode of people sitting around the campfire with extremely limited animation is so tiresome to watch. Its probably a way for the production to catch its breath and prepare for some big animation setpieces at the end of the season but its hard to watch. Just shots of one face and then another, no time/budget to but in any body or face acting in the actual animation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2022 20:59
|
|
|
Ccs posted:I turned off episode 25 because it was so deadly boring. Bits like that are fine in manga because they can be read at a good clip, but making an entire episode of people sitting around the campfire with extremely limited animation is so tiresome to watch. Its probably a way for the production to catch its breath and prepare for some big animation setpieces at the end of the season but its hard to watch. Just shots of one face and then another, no time/budget to but in any body or face acting in the actual animation. That’s literally how that chapter went. What did you want them animate exactly when adapting it? There’s not much wriggle room when the material literally has them sit around a campfire talking for the entire chapter. It’s not like in Death Note where you can have dramatic flourishes while the character talks, it would completely throw off the tone of the scene and make it feel very silly or overdramatic, undercutting the very important discussions they were having Asuron fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Mar 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 00:41
|
|
|
I think a significant factor in all this is that this is Isayama's first serialised manga (and happened to become one of the biggest) so he hasn't had much experience on that front; keep in mind also that most mangaka are very well practised in keeping their manga ongoing every week/month, and that even experienced ones are very out of practise regarding conclusions. Expecting a first-timer to not have difficulty with their first ending, even when it's a global phenomenon and even with the support of editors, is a long shot.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 00:52
|
|
|
Asuron posted:That’s literally how that chapter went. What did you want them animate exactly when adapting it? There’s not much wriggle room when the material literally has them sit around a campfire talking for the entire chapter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 01:43
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:I think it doesn't really help that both series are considered to have pretty bad/awful endings overall, relative to what came before Game of Thrones ending was so bad the franchise essentially disappeared from popular discussion, even just discussing about how bad the last couple seasons were, within weeks. Attack on Titan's ending is only being compared to GoT's in echo chambers such as this thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 03:24
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:Game of Thrones ending was so bad the franchise essentially disappeared from popular discussion, even just discussing about how bad the last couple seasons were, within weeks. Half the people watching AoT haven't seen the ending so let's hold our horses until they actually get to it lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 06:29
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:Half the people watching AoT haven't seen the ending so let's hold our horses until they actually get to it lol Attack on Titan fans who hate the ending are speculating on if the anime will have a different ending, writing fan comics, and getting into arguments about the themes with people who like the ending. Game of Thrones fans who hate the ending are mostly trying to forget the show exists. There's pretty visible differences in the reaction. (And that's from a guy who still thinks the base version of 139 is an abysmal failure on every level that comes across as more of an insult to the editorial staff than a coherent followup to 138. The bonus pages are good, though.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 06:53
|
|
|
The United States posted:This animated adaptation cut a whole lot of talky bits and entire scenes from previous arcs, let's not pretend it has to get extremely faithful to the manga now It’s not about them animating it faithfully… the question was what did they want them to animate for that moment that would match the standard they were setting. It was a serious discussion with all the characters airing out their grievances and was really important to the story to justify why they would work together. Other parts i didn’t like being cut was understandable because it didn’t break the flow of the story but cutting this would have. So again i ask, what would you have added animation wise to a episode based on a chapter where they all sat around talking about their feelings without undercutting the mood of the scene?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 08:19
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Attack on Titan fans who hate the ending are speculating on if the anime will have a different ending, writing fan comics, and getting into arguments about the themes with people who like the ending. I'm not sure how much of that is from any fundamental difference in the series or fanbases and how much of that is the anime take on the AoT ending is coming pretty soon after the conclusion of the manga while the book take on the GoT ending is decades away.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 11:16
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:Attack on Titan fans who hate the ending are speculating on if the anime will have a different ending, writing fan comics, and getting into arguments about the themes with people who like the ending. You do know that GoT is a book series too right? And all that same stuff is still happening since the series is unfinished
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 14:39
|
|
|
i ended up skipping ahead last night and read the ending of the manga. not really a huge fan of the marvel-esque insane action piece to tie it all up for a series that i thought was going the route of 'yeah different forms of fighting are not going to get us out of this hole' the bits with eren toward the end were pretty neat tho.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 16:01
|
|
|
If only Isayama never saw Guardians of the Galaxy
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 16:04
|
|
|
Asuron posted:So again i ask, what would you have added animation wise to a episode based on a chapter where they all sat around talking about their feelings without undercutting the mood of the scene? If the episode wasn't about saving resources for later in the season there's a ton of subtle face acting they could have done. It doesn't need to be acting broad body movements. Anyway I thought it was a boring episode, and maybe even more facial animation wouldn't have saved it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 16:21
|
|
|
Ccs posted:If the episode wasn't about saving resources for later in the season there's a ton of subtle face acting they could have done. It doesn't need to be acting broad body movements. It was super boring, but I think really it's just I'm burnt out on this. I'll just go back when it's all done and see what's what.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2022 16:32
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:I'm not sure how much of that is from any fundamental difference in the series or fanbases and how much of that is the anime take on the AoT ending is coming pretty soon after the conclusion of the manga while the book take on the GoT ending is decades away. If you go deep enough into the weeds like that, then there's no two cases of anything that can be compared. Even small differences will get leaned on as "proof" that the comparison is invalid, which is extra weird here since the argument is that GoT and AoT had very different responses to the ending. At any rate, the core audience for Attack on Titan seemed to be less pissed at the ending than the Game of Thrones audience. Final volume sold over a million copies in less than two weeks in Japan, with high ratings on Amazon Japan.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 00:32
|
|
|
chiasaur11 posted:If you go deep enough into the weeds like that, then there's no two cases of anything that can be compared. Even small differences will get leaned on as "proof" that the comparison is invalid, which is extra weird here since the argument is that GoT and AoT had very different responses to the ending. In the case of AoT, I remember people in this thread mostly being disappointed, and barring some hubbub about the extra panels that were added later, discussion mostly died. Maybe things were different outside these forums (and they certainly were with fans of the anime who didn't follow the manga) but from my perspective that's very similar to how GoT was received. What changed was that the final* season of the anime came out, and that prompted discussion again. If the final book of GoT comes out, I expect it'll probably do the same for that fandom.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 00:52
|
|
|
When a work ends people tend to not talk about it as much as when it was ongoing, generally.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 01:37
|
|
|
I actually liked the talky bits in the last two episodes! All of them sitting down and hashing out their issues is the exact type of thing I'm a sucker for and I always really liked the callback to Marco
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2022 03:10
|
|
|
I think the biggest differences are: 1. When GoT ended, every single person hated it. When AoT ended, it was generally well received in Japan. It was generally hated in the thread but opinions went towards neutral after the bonus pages. 2. GoT had sucked for years; whereas, AoT was only bad towards the end. Which feeds into: 3. GoT ending literally ruined the rest of the show. I don’t think any fan would go back and rewatch it ever again, or at least not for 10+ years. Whereas, generally most people would agree that even with the ending, AoT is one of the greatest anime created and they might still recommend it to people or rewatch it to see things they missed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 14:49
|
|
|
i can't say i "hated" the end but there sure are a lot of strange writing choices in it. i think isayama trusted that his story was strong enough to stand without eren being a POV character all that much in the end and it was a poor gamble. i was fascinated by what was going on with eren, so to remove him from the story for a good portion of the last few chapters felt disappointing, and if he wanted to go full hog on the strange metaphysical stuff then i think we needed to breathe in that a little longer than we were given
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 15:03
|
|
|
Yeah even before the extra pages came out, I thought AoT was still a great series overall even if the ending sucked and that was annoying.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 15:03
|
|
|
Kitiara posted:I think the biggest differences are: I see what you did there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2022 16:19
|
|
|
GoT's being bad for years is a pretty big distinction. AoT's biggest issue is how sloppy and rushed the execution of the ending starting from around the Rumbling. Also, i think there were like countless satisfying scenarios that fans envisioned GoT could've gone and they went with one of the lamest and least satisfying ones in one of the most rushed ways possible. AoT had maybe a handful of ways it could've ended up, mostly revolving around when Eren gets thwarted if at all, and how bleak it was going to conclude for that universe, with maybe slight hope thrown in. Isayama was likely never going to flesh out a satisfying epilogue for most of the cast either way. I get why people want to compare the two, but GoT is a failure levels beyond AoT.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 17:01
|
|
|
Only the last 18 chapters of AoT were kinda lame with some stinkers thrown in there the first 121 are still great and are worth reading despite the last arc. GoT had three great seasons then a slow decline for the rest of the series and then a dogshit ending.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 17:11
|
|
|
Usually I'm a little depressed when a series I have been following for as long as I followed AoT ends, but the AoT wind down and ending was bad enough that I just stopped caring by the time the final pages ran.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 18:13
|
|
|
I wish the ending had gone a different direction, but I was satisfied all the way through and every post-basement chapter was a gem.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2022 20:53
|
|
|
Speaking of GoT, it feels like ASOIAF readers have finally turned against George. I think his latest blog post broke their stash of hopium.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 04:19
|
|
|
Anime is continuing to do a great job elevating the material. I thought the port chapters were pretty bleh in the manga, the anime has done a great job really giving them some great kinetic motion and emotional umpf.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 04:21
|
|
|
The biggest problem with AoT's ending is the Mikasa-Ymir relation. If there were one or two more chapters to expand their parallels with eachother it would be a fine ending, and I'm hoping the anime addresses this. That said, it's way too harsh to compare AoT to GoT's ending. AoT has a sloppy ending but GoT never have one. GRRM putting book 6 on indefinite hiatus and the tv series having the white walkers die with no purpose shows he hasn't even considered how the story could possibly end. Season 8's failure is popularly attributed to D&D, but the real problem is their show's ending is based on books that will never exist. GRRM hasn't given a loving thought to ASOIAF since A Dance with Dragons. He wrote himself into a hole after killing off everybody in A Storm of Swords, then floundered with introducing new characters in the incredibly boring A Feast for Crows. He ended A Dance with Dragons with the long-awaited war about to begin and some small appetizers of how Bran and the white walkers could possibly tie into Daenerys' plot. But really, he had no idea how the story could possibly end and couldn't give a gently caress as long as the HBO royalties were flooding in. D&D realized this at season 8 and decided to end the show as quickly as possible rather than waste their careers ghost-writing the ending for an obese madman's trainwreck of a series.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 05:54
|
|
|
people should just read more books/manga. then they won't be so emotionally invested in one series. you see this with harry potter fans too. when news broke about berserk ending abruptly, a series i've loved and followed 20+ years, i just felt "oh well". i'm really excited to see chainsawman (another bloody series like berserk and aot) animated, for example
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 07:13
|
|
|
Sub Harrison posted:The biggest problem with AoT's ending is the Mikasa-Ymir relation. If there were one or two more chapters to expand their parallels with eachother it would be a fine ending, and I'm hoping the anime addresses this. This is just nonsense lol. Do you really think GRRM's original 3-book plan just had "???Ending???" pencilled in? And hardly "everybody" dies in ASOS. Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark (got rezzed at the end of the book), Sandor Clegane fakeout, Balon Greyjoy, Jeor Mormont? Only one of those is a POV character, and Mormont and Balon basically existed to die. Plus just lmao if you think the Red Wedding wasn't planned from the start. GRRM's problem isn't that he had no plan, it's that he let the books bloat out of control instead of sticking to it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 10:48
|
|
|
Sub Harrison posted:The biggest problem with AoT's ending is the Mikasa-Ymir relation. If there were one or two more chapters to expand their parallels with eachother it would be a fine ending, and I'm hoping the anime addresses this.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 12:10
|
|
|
Staltran posted:This is just nonsense lol. Do you really think GRRM's original 3-book plan just had "???Ending???" pencilled in? And hardly "everybody" dies in ASOS. Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark (got rezzed at the end of the book), Sandor Clegane fakeout, Balon Greyjoy, Jeor Mormont? Only one of those is a POV character, and Mormont and Balon basically existed to die. Plus just lmao if you think the Red Wedding wasn't planned from the start. GRRM's problem isn't that he had no plan, it's that he let the books bloat out of control instead of sticking to it. I do believe he had a some plan, but that didint cover all the details and that he never had a clear, complete, idea of what to do with them ice zombies. And than that plan got broken anyway since he didint followed it and so he decides to go wondering with the story in every direction after book 3 and it became really hard to find the way back to what was left of that plan again (which is why he is not writing anymore) Didint GRRM said himself once that he dont plan everything beforehand and prefers to let the story lead him or something? Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Mar 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 12:17
|
|
|
Having a plan from like 30 years ago barely matters any more outside of technical debates because the level of bloat is indicative that he can't stick to any meaningful plan. He's likely so easily distracted and chasing interesting new ideas that his plan is ever changing anyway. People being hyperbolic about his failing work productivity has been the norm for awhile now, I'm a bit surprised to see people sticking up for him on any level at this point. Disappointment in season 8 and subsequently GRRM was probably the last unifying event we've had in the world.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 13:30
|
|
|
Teek posted:Anime is continuing to do a great job elevating the material. I thought the port chapters were pretty bleh in the manga, the anime has done a great job really giving them some great kinetic motion and emotional umpf. Agreed. I thought the chapters between the rumbling and the ending were a complete bore fest. So much that watching the anime feels brand new because I can’t remember any of the manga material. Yet I’m pretty sure I’ll remember the latest badass episode in the future. Even the conversation around the fire, having the voice acting and the animation really helps. And not having to wait a whole month for a chapter where nothing advances is also a massive plus.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 13:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 20:56 |
|
|
Sub Harrison posted:The biggest problem with AoT's ending is the Mikasa-Ymir relation. If there were one or two more chapters to expand their parallels with eachother it would be a fine ending, and I'm hoping the anime addresses this. Nah dude. He wrote himself into a corner where he knows where he has to have the characters go, but can't get them there because: A) He didn't do a timeskip, so the characters aren't where he needs them to be for the story and now many of them are too young to do the things he needs them to do. B) There are too many things he left open that require immediate resolution to before you can move time forward significantly, but you can't do that in a satisfactory way with where the characters are all currently placed and he knows that, so he put it off because he has no idea how to resolve the problem. It's actually pretty famously referred to as the Mereenese Knot. That's why he can do all these spinoff books and collaborations. It's not because he's lazy or doesn't want to write, he just doesn't know how to get his story where he needs because of a problem he introduced by not doing the timeskip he initially planned.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2022 14:03
|
|