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PST posted:Thread is worth reading I'm just hardening my heart against seeing all these cool people do work for Wizards, guess you gotta pay the bill. Still hope I get to see non-WotC work from them. MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, this is simply not how English works. Thinking about it, the reverse also isn’t true: we don’t say The Ohio or The Quebec. If it wasn't clear, I mean using "Ukraine" instead of "The Ukraine" is a way of respecting a different distinction in the original languages, so I agree with them and not with your original argument about this being "linguistic bullshit".
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Mar 22, 2022 16:56
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I can strongly reccommend Game Wizards, which gets more into the drama and is explicitly about how Gygax and the Blumes burned TSR to the ground. It's also not a sides-taker, so unlike some articles which parrot the "Lorraine Williams is a BITCH and STOLE his company" this one does a pretty decent job of presenting multiple perspectives and had me re-think LW a small bit.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:03
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If it wasn't clear, I mean using "Ukraine" instead of "The Ukraine" is a way of respecting a different distinction in the original languages, so I agree with them and not with your original argument about this being "linguistic bullshit". …but is? It’s a distinction that exists in the original language but not in English?
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Mar 22, 2022 17:06
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English is truly the worst language
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Mar 22, 2022 17:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Still hope I get to see non-WotC work from them.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:08
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, this is simply not how English works. Thinking about it, the reverse also isn’t true: we don’t say The Ohio or The Quebec. Cause you don't use it for official administrative sub-parts of a country. You use it for nebulous defined geographical sub-regions, e.g. the Appalachians, the Highlands, the Ozarks, the Great Plains, or the South and the North. It's actually a lot worse than what you're talking about because standard English doesn't let you put the definite article in front of names : you can call someone "Henry" or whatever, but you can't call them "the Henry" without it sounding intensely weird. You're not only being insensitive to what Ukrainians want to be called for very good reasons of respect and national sovereignty, but you're fighting for a distinction that makes them not even sound like a state or a province, just a vague region. Finally, if we're being just slightly pedantic, it's worth mentioning that Netherlands is the preferred name for the country and not synonymous with Holland (which is a proper sub-part of The Netherlands), Dutch people are just generally too polite to make a big stink about it.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:…but is? It’s a distinction that exists in the original language but not in English? Is this post in English?
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Mar 22, 2022 17:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:…but is? It’s a distinction that exists in the original language but not in English? Do you respect peoples pronouns or do you also just complain that it doesn't make sense and do whatever you want anyways? The only reason "The Ukraine" sounds right to you is because you've heard it often enough that it's lodged in your brain, as that's how it was referred to before the collapse of the soviet union and it had a lot of cultural momentum prior to that point which still has not petered out. We don't say "The France" because no one has ever called it that. We say "France". And the country of Ukraine is asking to be referred to as Ukraine.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, this is simply not how English works. Thinking about it, the reverse also isn’t true: we don’t say The Ohio or The Quebec. We do say "The Midwest" or "The East Coast" to refer to regions. If one of these regions became independent and asked us please call them "Midwest," why not do so? Again, why is it hard to call people what they ask to be called?
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Mar 22, 2022 17:15
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homullus posted:I hope this and that there are further WotC products by still other PoCs. Having one such book is groundbreaking, but doing one largely symbolic groundbreaking thing and then returning to the status quo is pretty much the playbook. Yeah, it's a good first step. Now what comes next.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:16
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MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, this is simply not how English works. Thinking about it, the reverse also isn’t true: we don’t say The Ohio or The Quebec.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:16
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Kurieg posted:Do you respect peoples pronouns or do you also just complain that it doesn't make sense and do whatever you want anyways? For that matter we've stopped doing it with a lot of formerly colonized or occupied countries--we generally say Congo now rather than "the Congo," Sudan instead of "the Sudan," etc. It's not a universal English rule of grammar that using a definite article makes something not independent, and no one is saying that it is, but in the specific context of Ukraine (and quite a few other sovereign countries that used to be colonized or occupied), it does indeed carry connotations of ownership by7 another power.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:26
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homullus posted:I hope this and that there are further WotC products by still other PoCs. Having one such book is groundbreaking, but doing one largely symbolic groundbreaking thing and then returning to the status quo is pretty much the playbook. Yeah, and it also kind of draws attention to just how long it's taken TSR/WotC to release a product produced exclusively by PoC. GimpInBlack posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine As MonsieurChoc continues to insist on dying on the dumbest hill ever, I just want to go back and highlight this point again because I think it's both very well conveyed and demonstrates that referring to Ukraine in the way its citizens request is not only the proper thing to do from a general, ethical perspective but is also supported by internal linguistic logic. You don't refer to a country as "The [something}" unless that country's official name is a statement that contains "The" in front of it. People don't call it "The Spain" or "The Canada".
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Mar 22, 2022 17:27
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While we're on the subject it's Kyiv, not Kiev. Kiev is the russian way of saying it.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:28
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Kurieg posted:While we're on the subject it's Kyiv, not Kiev. Kiev is the russian way of saying it. indeed. I guess not everyone would know, but Ukrainian is a separate language. Russian was superimposed on Ukraine for a while, but large numbers never stopped speaking Ukrainian.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:37
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Kurieg posted:Do you respect peoples pronouns or do you also just complain that it doesn't make sense and do whatever you want anyways? I respect people's pronouns, it makes both linguistic and social sense. It's the right way to do it. And I'm insulted that you'd imply I'm a transphobe/TERF.
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Mar 22, 2022 17:41
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MonsieurChoc posted:I respect people's pronouns, it makes both linguistic and social sense. It's the right way to do it. And I'm insulted that you'd imply I'm a transphobe/TERF. Then why are you still complaining about not wanting to call a country the proper name as determined by its own citizens?
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Mar 22, 2022 17:43
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It's a similar issue. People are saying "please stop calling me that, it no longer applies and has bad associations."
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Mar 22, 2022 17:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:I respect people's pronouns, it makes both linguistic and social sense. It's the right way to do it. And I'm insulted that you'd imply I'm a transphobe/TERF. Then be better and stop saying that Russia's attempts to unperson an entire nation are "linguistic bullshit" and "freedom fries levels of dumb".
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Mar 22, 2022 17:46
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KingKalamari posted:Yeah, and it also kind of draws attention to just how long it's taken TSR/WotC to release a product produced exclusively by PoC. It also bums me out that this was announced on the exact one-year anniversary of Graeme Barber's posts about his adventure for Candlekeep being rewritten.
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Mar 22, 2022 18:07
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MonsieurChoc posted:I respect people's pronouns, it makes both linguistic and social sense. It's the right way to do it. And I'm insulted that you'd imply I'm a transphobe/TERF.
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Mar 22, 2022 20:55
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GimpInBlack posted:For that matter we've stopped doing it with a lot of formerly colonized or occupied countries--we generally say Congo now rather than "the Congo," Sudan instead of "the Sudan," etc. It's not a universal English rule of grammar that using a definite article makes something not independent, and no one is saying that it is, but in the specific context of Ukraine (and quite a few other sovereign countries that used to be colonized or occupied), it does indeed carry connotations of ownership by7 another power. Also worth noting here that "the Gambia" retains the definite article at the request of the state (in part to avoid confusion with Zambia, apparently), which distinguishes it from most of these other post-imperial cases.
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Mar 22, 2022 21:02
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Kurieg posted:Then be better and stop saying that Russia's attempts to unperson an entire nation are "linguistic bullshit" and "freedom fries levels of dumb". Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Mar 22, 2022 |
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Mar 22, 2022 21:10
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Calling it "Ukraine" instead of україни is already an unacceptable degree of WESTERN CHAUVANISM and furthermore,
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Mar 22, 2022 21:28
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Halloween Jack posted:Nations aren't people. Please stop using this language to be an insufferable dorkwad about what someone calls Ukraine. groups of people are still people and have considerable say in what they're called though, right?
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Mar 22, 2022 21:30
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If you have a friend named Ukraine and you call them The Ukraine and they ask you not to, by all means stop doing that
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Mar 22, 2022 21:36
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Warthur posted:Absolutely - it definitely seems like the late Gygax days were dark times for the company (among other things, their main bank dialled back their line of credit, which was about as stark a vote of no-confidence in current leadership as they could make short of cutting it off entirely), and if Lorraine or someone like her hadn't stepped in to push him out then the company would have been toast. Also, pretty much everything Lorraine gets criticised for is essentially something which was already present in TSR when she took over - even her Buck Rogers poo poo was just her exercising the sort of nepotism which the Blumes had been masterful at, and it at least led to sellable product (unlike some of the Blumes' less sensible decisions). I was absolutely gobsmacked at the "We need a BA in our company, this is hard." "Okay, lets send my niece to business school, fully paying her tuition, books, materials, lodgings, and transport while also telling two TSR employees we won't be honoring their stock options (and that they can eat poo poo) and choosing to eat two lawsuits over paying them what they were owed" revelation. And yeah, Williams seems to have been somewhat nonplussed at first by the fact that Gary was both drawing 120k a year, didn't seem to do anything but burn bridges via his editorials in Dragon Magazine, and also didn't want a single active hand in running the company aside from having the power to veto other people's decisions. e. and that she had had to invest a significant portion of her inheritance into the company to get the job TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Mar 22, 2022 |
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Mar 22, 2022 21:54
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Yeah, Williams indubitably made some stupid decisions, but many of the criticism she's faced is either flatly untrue or frankly stupid, like the Many Buckets Theory.
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Mar 22, 2022 22:05
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I'd kind of hoped that Ukraine chat would go away on its own, but also I fear that it won't, so: It's called Ukraine. If you call it 'The Ukraine' you are wrong. If you want to continue to argue this point, don't. TIA.
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Mar 22, 2022 23:38
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Cessna posted:Ever hear of Tom Kratman? Oh hey, he called me a cocksucker once. Although he’s too delicate to spell it out, he had to use asterisks.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:01
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Sorry for this morning. I got stuck in the toxic "Must win argument on the internet" mindset.Halloween Jack posted:Yeah, Williams indubitably made some stupid decisions, but many of the criticism she's faced is either flatly untrue or frankly stupid, like the Many Buckets Theory. Never heard of the many buckets theory. What was it?
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Mar 23, 2022 01:04
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MonsieurChoc posted:Sorry for this morning. I got stuck in the toxic "Must win argument on the internet" mindset. It's the idea that there's two approaches when it's raining money, make one big bucket to catch as much as you can, or waste time making a bunch of smaller buckets. The argument that's usually leveled at Williams is that she squandered TSR's golden opportunity by trying to cast too wide a net with AD&D 2e, mostly through all of the extra campaign settings like Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc. instead of focusing solely on straight-up fantasy, I guess? Because it's not like those are adored by a subsection of D&D fan or anything. For all I know the buckets theory has some merit to it but it's spurious enough of an argument that it usually reads like armchair quarterbacking years after the fact.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:09
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MockingQuantum posted:For all I know the buckets theory has some merit to it but it's spurious enough of an argument that it usually reads like armchair quarterbacking years after the fact. It doesn’t, AFAIK. Nobody has established a credible model for determining which is the most profitable approach to take.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:16
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Diversifying in 2e is what ultimately lead to D&D becoming undeservedly fixed as the Only Game You Need and establishing a stranglehold on the hobby. As other games and systems were rising to prominence, D&D was the only (mainstream) option that let you explore new settings without leaning a new game. You could play Space D&D, High Fantasy, Post Apocalyptic, Gothic Horror, artsy Surreal Henson-esque fantasy, etc etc etc. Arguably White Wolf did the same thing, but the Storyteller system was firmly planted in 90s urban horror.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:19
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MockingQuantum posted:It's the idea that there's two approaches when it's raining money, make one big bucket to catch as much as you can, or waste time making a bunch of smaller buckets. The argument that's usually leveled at Williams is that she squandered TSR's golden opportunity by trying to cast too wide a net with AD&D 2e, mostly through all of the extra campaign settings like Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc. instead of focusing solely on straight-up fantasy, I guess? Because it's not like those are adored by a subsection of D&D fan or anything. I feel like the Venn diagram between people who would blame Williams entirely for TSR's failures and people who have a pet campaign setting that they complain endlessly that WotC hasn't printed materials for is a circle.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:23
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admanb posted:I feel like the Venn diagram between people who would blame Williams entirely for TSR's failures and people who have a pet campaign setting that they complain endlessly that WotC hasn't printed materials for is a circle. The Piazza, which is THE place to talk about every obscure scrap of D&D setting info ever, is actually pretty positive on the Buck Rogers RPG. Also if you're complaining about TSR "buckets" don't forget they took their biggest 80s bucket (Basic D&D) and shrunk it down into a tiny bucket to go with all the other stuff (2e Mystara). Like it's not wide versus deep, they were just loving idiots.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:32
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Arivia posted:The Piazza, which is THE place to talk about every obscure scrap of D&D setting info ever, is actually pretty positive on the Buck Rogers RPG. An alternate universe where they sidelined AD&D to focus on B/BX/BECMI as soon as Gygax was gone sounds pretty good. Alas...
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Mar 23, 2022 01:33
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I always wondered why there's so many goddamn editions of Gamma World. Was it someone's favorite for a while?
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Mar 23, 2022 01:38
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MockingQuantum posted:It's the idea that there's two approaches when it's raining money, make one big bucket to catch as much as you can, or waste time making a bunch of smaller buckets. The argument that's usually leveled at Williams is that she squandered TSR's golden opportunity by trying to cast too wide a net with AD&D 2e, mostly through all of the extra campaign settings like Planescape, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc. instead of focusing solely on straight-up fantasy, I guess? Because it's not like those are adored by a subsection of D&D fan or anything. Huh, never heard that one before. Thanks for the info.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:58
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Arivia posted:The Piazza, which is THE place to talk about every obscure scrap of D&D setting info ever, is actually pretty positive on the Buck Rogers RPG. Buck Rogers gave me one of my favorite Genesis games, so as far as I'm concerned it's all right. (Just ignore a majority of the expanded gear supplement; if I ever ran that game for my friends there's no loving way I'm ever letting them have *anything* from that book.)
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Mar 23, 2022 02:50
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