Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

ASAPI posted:

I think this is the reason we haven't seen some things happen.

Zelensky is either an incredibly shrewd leader or has surrounded himself with people who are.

Ultimately, if you're smart enough to surround yourself with knowledgeable people who give good advice and you're smart enough to negotiate what advice to heed and what to ignore, you get to be called an effective leader, even if you have no expertise relative to what you're being advised on.

# ? Mar 29, 2022 23:00

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 03:00

Taerkar: Dec 7, 2002; kind of into it, really

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Apologies for leaving off the link when I posted.

https://twitter.com/BBCTimFranks/status/1508527142593871883

There's a difference between "The poisoning attack didn't happen" and "None of the Ukraine contingent reported being poisoned" which IIRC it was said that only the Russian delegation was poisoned in the first place, and not all of them. The story in that tweet is the 'Ukraine officials poisoned as well' report.

# ? Mar 29, 2022 23:47

orange juche: Mar 14, 2012

zoux posted:

We just might be on the downslope here

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1508774654940520448

Not a chance, Russia isn't having much success around Kyiv, but where else would those troops around Kyiv do a whole lot of good if you withdrew them? Money's on they're getting on trucks and redeploying elsewhere in theater. I could think of a few places that Russia would benefit from a ton of troops and their equipment more than smashing their faces into Kyiv with not much success.

orange juche fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Mar 30, 2022

# ? Mar 29, 2022 23:57

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

Trust but verify.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 00:41

TehRedWheelbarrow: Mar 16, 2011; Fan of Britches

Or take putins skull. Legitimately ok too.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 00:42

Radical 90s Wizard: Aug 5, 2008; ~SS-18 burning bright,
Bathe me in your cleansing light~

I can't believe Iron Eagle was about an F-16 and not an F-15 what the hell

# ? Mar 30, 2022 00:49

orange juche: Mar 14, 2012

Radical 90s Wizard posted:

I can't believe Iron Eagle was about an F-16 and not an F-15 what the hell

F-16 has 1 more number and thus more betterer, right?

Nevermind that, Top Gun 2 is finally coming out in like 2 months and I wonder how they're going to square the circle of Maverick driving an F/A-18 now lol

# ? Mar 30, 2022 01:46

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

Radical 90s Wizard posted:

I can't believe Iron Eagle was about an F-16 and not an F-15 what the hell

Harrison Ford never runs around with a knife in that one movie.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 01:46

Cimber: Feb 3, 2014

Radical 90s Wizard posted:

I can't believe Iron Eagle was about an F-16 and not an F-15 what the hell

F-15s are dual seated, with a pilot and a wizzo, while the f-16 are single seated. Easier to steal two of 'em that way.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 01:52

Flikken: Oct 23, 2009; 10,363 snaps and not a playoff win to show for it

Cimber posted:

F-15s are dual seated, with a pilot and a wizzo, while the f-16 are single seated. Easier to steal two of 'em that way.

You have not watched that movie. *eye is twitching *

# ? Mar 30, 2022 01:57

Cimber: Feb 3, 2014

Flikken posted:

You have not watched that movie. *eye is twitching *

I have, and it was f16s.

Becides, the electric jet is a better aircraft than the eagle.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:08

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

please, electric jets don't even exist yet :rolleyes:

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:12

orange juche: Mar 14, 2012

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

please, electric jets don't even exist yet

That's what big aviation wants you to believe.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:20

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

Cimber posted:

F-15s are dual seated, with a pilot and a wizzo, while the f-16 are single seated. Easier to steal two of 'em that way.

In the 80s F15s were single seaters.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:23

wins32767: Mar 16, 2007

orange juche posted:

That's what big aviation wants you to believe.

Electric prop planes do though!

https://www.beta.team/

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:28

Cimber: Feb 3, 2014

Murgos posted:

In the 80s F15s were single seaters.

Partially correct. There were dual seat (d model) and single seat (c model), but its a moot point because the f16 is just better

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:33

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

please, electric jets don't even exist yet

My brother in Christ, have you not heard of the EF-18?

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:34

Wingnut Ninja: Jan 11, 2003; Mostly Harmless

Cimber posted:

the f-16 are single seated.

Sure bud, and I suppose they're flown by the Air Force too. :rolleyes:

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:53

LtCol J. Krusinski: May 7, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Cimber posted:

Partially correct. There were dual seat (d model) and single seat (c model), but its a moot point because the f16 is just better

Uhhh someone ban this sick filth. The F-16 is emphatically not better than the F-15. Why do you think we�re buying new build F-15�s with all the bells and whistles and not bespoke F-16�s.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:54

Flikken: Oct 23, 2009; 10,363 snaps and not a playoff win to show for it

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Uhhh someone ban this sick filth. The F-16 is emphatically not better than the F-15. Why do you think we’re buying new build F-15’s with all the bells and whistles and not bespoke F-16’s.

Because Lockheed Martin owns the F-16 and F-35

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:56

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Uhhh someone ban this sick filth. The F-16 is emphatically not better than the F-15. Why do you think we’re buying new build F-15’s with all the bells and whistles and not bespoke F-16’s.

Are they cheaper?

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:56

Gaius Marius: Oct 9, 2012

Kinda sad how many people in here can't count. 16 is bigger than 15 just a heads up

# ? Mar 30, 2022 02:58

Jimmy Smuts: Aug 8, 2000

Wish there was more love for the century-series fighters. I'll never get tired of the story of a F-106 cheat-coding against a F-16 during an exercise by firing a nuke at it.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:01

LtCol J. Krusinski: May 7, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

Are they cheaper?

Not even a little. F-15�s are pricier and have a higher per flight hour cost. But it�s got range, and is a much more capable jet than any F-16.

The C/D models are� falling the gently caress apart after decades of being flown hard and put up wet.

The -E and -EX are better than the F-16 in every conceivable way, other than cost.

The F-16 is a very very affordable jet when compared to other fighters, though, and I can�t deny that.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:04

Jimmy Smuts: Aug 8, 2000

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Not even a little. F-15�s are pricier and have a higher per flight hour cost. But it�s got range, and is a much more capable jet than any F-16.

The C/D models are� falling the gently caress apart after decades of being flown hard and put up wet.

The -E and -EX are better than the F-16 in every conceivable way, other than cost.

The F-16 is a very very affordable jet when compared to other fighters, though, and I can�t deny that.

What about maneuverability? I remember that was a big advantage of the F-16 over pretty much anything other than a MiG-29 in the '90s, but I haven't kept up since then. Does it even matter nowadays? Seems knife fights are very rare.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:09

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Well 16 is a bigger number than 15 and I is later than C or D, so clearly the champion is this twin-seat fighter, famous for its fat back, broad spine, questionable thrust to weight ratio, nose blobs, and reduced maneuverability in favor of ability to loiter over neighborhoods.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:14

LtCol J. Krusinski: May 7, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Jimmy Smuts posted:

What about maneuverability? I remember that was a big advantage of the F-16 over pretty much anything other than a MiG-29 in the '90s, but I haven't kept up since then. Does it even matter nowadays? Seems knife fights are very rare.

They�re comparable in that they�re both 9g capable jets, but all that thrust the -15 has helps it lose a lot less energy in a one or two circle fight. A really good viper pilot can win a BFM fight against a less good eagle pilot, no doubt, but not usually against a really good eagle driver.

Both are capable jets, but the f-16 suffers from it�s smaller size, shorter range, and less thrust.

Meanwhile the F-35 and F-22 can wipe the floor with either jet. I don�t know how the -EX does with its fancy new AESA against LO targets, but with 20 something AIM-120�s onboard surely they�ll get at least one kill, haha. Especially with cooperative targeting.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:17

orange juche: Mar 14, 2012

Jimmy Smuts posted:

What about maneuverability? I remember that was a big advantage of the F-16 over pretty much anything other than a MiG-29 in the '90s, but I haven't kept up since then. Does it even matter nowadays? Seems knife fights are very rare.

Considering the F-16 was apparently the world's first purpose-built 9g fighter, I'd say its a bit more maneuverable than a F-15. F-15 can go way, way faster though. (Mach 2.45 for the F-15 and 1.8 for the F-16)

I think there was a guncam pic of an Eagle driver winning against a Viper at some point though?

E: nevermind it was the Tomcat driver managing a kill on an Eagle.

orange juche fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Mar 30, 2022

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:23

Jimmy Smuts: Aug 8, 2000

Interesting stuff. To steer the thread back on topic, I wonder how those used MiG-29s being given to Ukraine will do against the RFAF, which seems to consist heavily of SU-27 variants. What I've kept hearing about the MiG-29 is that it has poo poo range, but I guess that's not a big issue if you're on defense?

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:31

LtCol J. Krusinski: May 7, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

orange juche posted:

Considering the F-16 was apparently the world's first purpose-built 9g fighter, I'd say its a bit more maneuverable than a F-15. F-15 can go way, way faster though. (Mach 2.45 for the F-15 and 1.8 for the F-16)

I think there was a guncam pic of an Eagle driver winning against a Viper at some point though?

E: nevermind it was the Tomcat driver managing a kill on an Eagle.

It�s not. They�re both 9g jets, but the eagle loses a boat load less energy in a turn because of all that goddamned thrust.

I feel as though I�m repeating myself.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:36

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

Cimber posted:

Partially correct. There were dual seat (d model) and single seat (c model), but its a moot point because the f16 is just better

Wasn�t the D just the trainer though? Not sure that really counts.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 03:57

Anticheese: Feb 13, 2008; $60,000,000 sexbot

Jimmy Smuts posted:

Wish there was more love for the century-series fighters. I'll never get tired of the story of a F-106 cheat-coding against a F-16 during an exercise by firing a nuke at it.

I would love to hear more about this

# ? Mar 30, 2022 04:02

LtCol J. Krusinski: May 7, 2013; by Fluffdaddy

Anticheese posted:

I would love to hear more about this

quote:

F-106 vs F-16
DARTS vs VIPERS Two Air Defense Interceptor Pilots vs Two Tactical Fighter Pilots By S. Michael Townsend, LTC, USAF (Ret.) �Viper 1, Pierre, Bucko, Genie, FMO, Rafsob� Circa 1984

I was a Captain stationed at Tyndall AFB as an F-106 Instructor. This day my wingman, a fellow Captain and Instructor, and I were scheduled for Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) with two F-16s from Shaw AFB. I was to be the Instructor for the training on the Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Range (ACMI) over the Gulf of Mexico, a highly accurate tracking system that would record all maneuvers in the airspace by the aircraft, score all shots taken and simulate any kills. None of us had ever fought against the other type fighter. Tactical Air Command pilots considered Air Defense pilots a lesser breed.

I started the preflight briefing after introductions with the Lieutenant Colonel (LTC) and his wingman a Lieutenant (LT). The LTC immediately interrupted and informed me that he had no idea why they were scheduled for DACT with aircraft that were far inferior to the F-16 and that it would not be much of a challenge for them resulting in very little effective training. He stated that we should engage with full up all weapons capability for both fighter types even stating that though they only had heaters (heat seeking missiles) and guns he saw no disadvantage for them. I hid the fact that he had pissed us off and verified that he meant for us to use the full weapons capability of the F-106. He replied, of course you can! Obviously he had no idea what we carried between our legs, a clueless state of mind! I smiled as I looked at my wingman while stroking the inside of my thigh; this pecker checker was going to get hammered when the Genie popped up!

I briefed the LTC to take his flight to the farthest most southern point of the airspace and be prepared to attack the coastline that we would defend. We would place ourselves on �Five� (five minute alert) and scramble when we saw him takeoff giving him the advantage of being ready when we arrived. I told him to be sure to look at the F-106 ramp on takeoff to verify that we there on �Five� and this would be important during the debrief. We briefed two engagements followed by join up for 1v1 basic fighter maneuvers (BFM), him versus me and the wingmen against each other.

The fun began as they lifted off and saw us on the edge of the ramp, �communicating�, with a raised finger over two rising moons! We had a hard time getting our crew chiefs to stop laughing so we could launch. A gate (full afterburner) climb to 41,000 feet put us in the airspace in 6 minutes when I called �fight�s on�! I felt sorry for my wingman because he would not get a shot on this first engagement. One minute later I called �Fox 3, KILL, two F-16s north bound at 18,000 feet. Nock- it off, nock-it off, fights over, return to your safe area,� was immediately passed to the Viper pilots. The LTC was so confused that the ground control intercept (GCI) controller had to tell him he had been shot by a �NUC� (Genie nuclear tipped rocket) and that him and his wingman were DEAD so return to your point! I told GCI to inform him that we had one more Genie but that we wouldn�t use it on the next engagement.

Score: Darts 2, Vipers 0

I put my wingman in four mile trail as we began the next engagement from 41,000 feet at 1.2 MACH racing down to their altitude of 18,000 feet, dumb a - - he didn�t even change his altitude to make it harder on us. Since they had face heaters (firing heat seekers in our face), we cooled our jets by retarding the engines to idle power to cool them off and denying the face shot while maintaining supersonic on our downhill slide. They took the bait, the leader rolled out behind me, the wingman behind mine. We had them right where we wanted them! Not even an F-16 can sustain a climb followed by a 9 G turn and roll out 2 miles behind a supersonic target and chase them down so the missile will make the kill. The leader found himself in front of my wingman who easily �Doe popped� him with two missiles while outrunning the F-16 wingman.

Score: Darts 1, Vipers 0

After a fuel check we split for 1v1 BFM. Starting from line abreast each fighter turns 45 degrees away from the other to gain spacing. At the fight�s on call the fighters turn toward each other passing canopy to canopy with no advantage. The knife fight begins in earnest as they turn to gain six o�clock on the other for a guns kill. Hands are helpful in explaining what happens next. Obviously the Viper can out turn a Dart and the LTC was behind me closing for guns! My next maneuver required exact timing or it would turn out all bad. As he closed for the shot I presented him with the infamous �F-106 Barn Door�. This is a frightening experience for anyone who has never seen the Dart act in such an unbelievable aerodynamic manner. Never attempt this maneuver at home as it should only be done by a highly trained and experienced Dart driver! With him captured solidly at my six, in a hard four G turn, closing for the kill, fangs out and dripping, I held the G while applying full opposite rudder. The Dart responds beautifully with an opposite direction roll through the vertical to a full nose down dive where I apply full afterburner and dash for the deck. From the Viper�s cockpit it looked just like someone opened a barn door in his face, nowhere to go and no idea what to do. Suddenly the Dart disappears. His only option was to call nock-it off because he lost sight having never squeezed the trigger. Meanwhile our wingman had to nock-it off because the LT was low on fuel.

Score: Darts 0, Vipers 0

I sent the Vipers home and my wingman and I played for a while. My debriefing was short and sweet. The Fighter pilots had to fly again to get some real training. It went something like this: Know your enemy. Never underestimate your enemy. Never enter a gun fight with a knife. Never engage an enemy when you don�t have a clue. Lose sight lose the fight. Pecker checkers should be well endowed. When the Genie pops up, you�re goanna die! Nothing was ever said about the moons, I believe we �communicated� effectively!

Final Score: Darts 3, Vipers 0 America remained safe from attack!!

S. Michael Townsend, LTC, USAF Ret. �Viper 1, Pierre, Bucko, Genie, FMO, Rafsob�

# ? Mar 30, 2022 04:09

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

that's like exactly what the Genie was designed to do :discourse:

# ? Mar 30, 2022 04:42

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

that's like exactly what the Genie was designed to do

Not exactly, it was designed to be fired into a mass formation of Soviet bombers coming over the Pole.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 04:51

Loden Taylor: Aug 11, 2003

lol just found out an F-106 landed itself after its pilot punched out, how did I never know about this?

Cornfield Bomber posted:

Faust fired his ejection seat and escaped the stricken aircraft at an altitude of 15,000 feet (4,600 m).

The reduction in weight and change in center of gravity caused by the removal of the pilot, coupled with the blast force of his seat rocketing out of the plane pushing the nose of the aircraft down, which had been trimmed by Faust for takeoff and idle throttle, caused the aircraft to recover from the spin. One of the other pilots on the mission was reported to have radioed Faust during his descent by parachute that "you'd better get back in it!". From his parachute, Faust watched incredulously as the now-pilotless aircraft descended and skidded to a halt in a farmer's field near Big Sandy, Montana.

Good thing that was after they worked out the bugs in the ejection seat:

quote:

Following the resolution of initial teething problems � in particular an ejection seat that killed the first 12 pilots to eject from the aircraft � its exceptional performance made it very popular with its pilots.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 05:00

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Loden Taylor posted:

lol just found out an F-106 landed itself after its pilot punched out, how did I never know about this?

Good thing that was after they worked out the bugs in the ejection seat:

quote:

Following its misadventure, the "Cornfield Bomber" was repaired and returned to service, operating with the 49th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, the final Air Force unit to operate the F-106. Faust flew the aircraft again in 1979 while training at Tyndall Air Force Base. Upon its retirement, it was presented to the National Museum of the United States Air Force in August 1986, where it remains on display.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 05:05

NightGyr: Mar 7, 2005; I � Unicode

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Genie story

This always reminds me of the Hoser classic

"Top Gun - The Navy's Fighter Weapons School” by George Hall posted:

Hoser also knew a thing or two about the element of surprise. During the much-maligned AIMVAL-ACEVAL fighter trials of a decade ago, Hoser was put in a 1 V 1 against a Navy Aggressor flying an F-5. As the two combatants sat side-by-side on the Nellis runway, awaiting tower clearance for a second takeoff, Hoser looked over at his opponent, reached his hand up over the control panel, and mimicked the cocking of machine guns in a World War I Spad. A thumbs up came from the other cockpit- guns it would be, the proverbial knife fight in a phone booth, forget the missiles. Both jets blasted off.

In the area, the fighters set up twenty miles apart for a head-on intercept under ground control. Seven miles from the merge, with closure well over 1000 knots, Hoser called "Fox One" - Sparrow missile away, no chance of a miss. As they flashed past each other, the furious F-5 driver radioed, "What the hell was that all about?" "Sorry." said Hoser, "lost my head. Let's set up again. Guns only, I promise."

Remember Charlie Brown, Lucy, and the football? Again the two fighters streaked towards the pass, again at seven miles Hoser called "Fox One." The Aggressor was apoplectic; he was also coming up on bingo fuel state, a common situation in the short-legged F-5.

Hoser was first back to the club bar, nursing an end-of-the-day cold one as the flushed Aggressor stomped in. "Hoser, what the hell happened to credibility?" fumed the F-5 jock. Said Hoser, with accompanying thumb gestures, "Credibility is DOWN, kill ratio is UP!" It's a popular Top Gun story, and it's moral isn't lost on students or teachers. From 1 V 1 to forty-plane furball, expect anything. But never expect your enemy to be a sweet guy.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 05:14

Blind Rasputin: Nov 25, 2002; Farewell, good Hunter. May you find your worth in the waking world.

LtCol J. Krusinski posted:

Not even a little. F-15�s are pricier and have a higher per flight hour cost. But it�s got range, and is a much more capable jet than any F-16.

The C/D models are� falling the gently caress apart after decades of being flown hard and put up wet.

The -E and -EX are better than the F-16 in every conceivable way, other than cost.

The F-16 is a very very affordable jet when compared to other fighters, though, and I can�t deny that.

The F-15 sounds WAY cooler than the F-16 when it�s cold starting both it�s engines, too. This is one of the more important points.

https://youtu.be/3bpRfx0DT2g

# ? Mar 30, 2022 05:49

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 03:00

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

The F-14 is way cooler than either of those Air Force tryhards.

# ? Mar 30, 2022 05:57

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