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Tolkien (per his letters) was really deeply bothered later in life by his own portrayal of orcs as sapient creatures incapable of anything but evil. It's just that his objection was that this was incompatible with Catholic theology regarding grace and free will rather than nature vs. nurture specifically. It's also never really made clear if they're a biological species at all, since he was still flipping back and forth between various specific origins for orc-kind even after publication of LotR and some of them would have precluded that or at least complicated the issue.
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Mar 29, 2022 17:33
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Tolkien (per his letters) was really deeply bothered later in life by his own portrayal of orcs as sapient creatures incapable of anything but evil. It's just that his objection was that this was incompatible with Catholic theology regarding grace and free will rather than nature vs. nurture specifically. 5e does the whole "Probably not really a biological species" thing as well. They have somewhat acknowledged how problematic the alignment system is.
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Mar 29, 2022 17:38
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It actually really doesn't help that some D&D editions and Warcraft actually doubled down on the vaguely native peoples characterisation of Orcs, while Warhammer 40k ironically works by specifically having them be an artificial species of super-soldiers complete with their own fully formed ecosystem. And they're also the comic relief of the setting who are a mix of Mad Max villains and Cockney football hooligans.
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Mar 29, 2022 17:43
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I think it makes sense as to how you'd end up in a a casually racist situation like that when scaling down a wargame and wanting to do a bunch of combat encounters with minimal storytelling to keep them together. The main mechanic in the game is to fight and kill things, encounters against creatures that you're meant to fight without having to explain a lot of circumstances streamlines the process. Other tabletop roleplaying games ended up focusing a lot more on the explaining why things need to be fought, but D&D seems more firmly built around the combat system rather than the lore. I think there's also a bit of a saving grace with how a lot of D&D's designated evil races eventually had big stories made about antiheroes striving against type and demonstrating that maybe it's not all that simple. When you see a work of fiction that does that sort of portrayal without the gameplay providing the framework, it feels a lot different. The Goblin Slayer series is all about how goblins are iredeemably evil horrible rapist vermin, and it just feels really gross.
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Mar 29, 2022 17:56
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When people asked Tolkien if orcs were irredeemable or inherently evil he has long explanations of how its impossible for someone to truly be irredeemable and how even something made evil isn't evil as a part of its base being if its sapient. When people asked Gygax if orcs were inherently evil he quoted a real life mass murderer of native Americans to justify child murder. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Tolkien (per his letters) was really deeply bothered later in life by his own portrayal of orcs as sapient creatures incapable of anything but evil. It's just that his objection was that this was incompatible with Catholic theology regarding grace and free will rather than nature vs. nurture specifically.
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Mar 29, 2022 18:12
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It actually really doesn't help that some D&D editions and Warcraft actually doubled down on the vaguely native peoples characterisation of Orcs, while Warhammer 40k ironically works by specifically having them be an artificial species of super-soldiers complete with their own fully formed ecosystem.
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Mar 29, 2022 18:16
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Halloween Jack posted:Yeah, I've always been suspicious of the idea that the way to "fix" orcs is by lathering detail onto them without actually changing the situation. Oh, they have their own culture (it's tribal) and religion (shamanism of course). I bet they also have really good music and food, but they remain bad guys you can feel good about killing. IMO it's better, if not great, when they're automatons summoned by evil wizards or whatever. As always I will shill Eberron, which took this approach and then changed enough of the context to make it infinitely less terrible. To wit, that they're tribal because they've been stuck in marginal lands with a low population while other empires come and go, and shamanism demonstrably works great so why abandon it? Plus, why would you feel good about killing them, they're not bothering anyone! Same with most of the other "monster races," really, the orcs are just some of the more prominent of a bunch of marginalized groups.
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Mar 29, 2022 19:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think there's also a bit of a saving grace with how a lot of D&D's designated evil races eventually had big stories made about antiheroes striving against type and demonstrating that maybe it's not all that simple. That’s not a saving grace, that’s just going “This race is bad, but maybe you might meet One Of The Good Ones who agrees with the opinion that the rest of them are evil savages and desperately wants to prove they’re different.”
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Mar 29, 2022 20:54
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13th Age has Orcs being an infection of some sort if I'm recalling correctly, created by the Elves to cause problems for the Dragon Empire/tear down civilization. It went about as well as one would expect.
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Mar 29, 2022 21:14
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Almost all the problems evaporate if you redesignate enemy factions "antagonist" instead of "evil." What matters is that the orcs are acting against the main characters under most circumstances. The ethical implications are secondary to the story; Why arbitrarily decide that anyone is good or evil in this situation?
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Mar 29, 2022 21:18
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It's very funny that no one saw "This sentient species is an infection" as a problem, and that they apparently managed a much worse take on it than Warhammer. In early D&D, Law vs. Chaos was basically a shorthand for "will this Creature Type attack me on sight y/n?" It took some time to evolve into the brokebrained cosmology it is in D&D and its imitators today.
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Mar 29, 2022 21:19
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I think a lot of the hosed-up morality of D&D arises from the conflict between the original conceit of the game (Going into dungeons to steal treasure from monsters) and the eventual use of the alignment system as a method to police player actions. AD&D, where the alignment grid was first introduced, really seemed to push it as a means to push back against the whole "murderhobo" play style (Which itself could be argued to have largely been a reaction against the type of antagonistic GM style Gygax often adopted in his early playtests) but introduced a bit of cognitive dissonance in that the playstyle supported by the rest of the rules was a lot more morally grey. The game was designed to replicate the adventures of Fahfrd and the Gray Mouser or Cugel the Clever - rogues and scoundrels who were more interested in striking it rich than fighting for law and order. So you end up with this conundrum where the rules are rewarding players for doing things that, while not necessarily evil per se, are not what most people would define as virtuous alongside a morality system that says that says some of the people delving into this dungeon are going to be lawful and virtuous. So what you end up with is a game that needs to justify how going into a dungeon, murdering the guys who live inside it and clearing out all the shinies is actually an act that a lawful good character would totally do...
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Mar 29, 2022 21:46
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I think the idea was that orcs were more like the response to an infection, like the elves enchanted the earth so it would produce orc hordes as a form of heightened planetary immune response, and then made the Orc Lord to direct them, but yeah, maybe you just shouldn't.
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Mar 29, 2022 22:06
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Halloween Jack posted:It's very funny that no one saw "This sentient species is an infection" as a problem, and that they apparently managed a much worse take on it than Warhammer. It's less an infection and more a forced polymorph into a magical critter that was designed to tear down what is built up. Basically a WMD that grew legs and decided to do its own thing and build a society of its own. Is it perfect? gently caress no. But at least it's better than "gotta go kill all the babies so they don't grow up to be evil". *edit* Basically what Rand said.
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Mar 29, 2022 22:07
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KingKalamari posted:So you end up with this conundrum where the rules are rewarding players for doing things that, while not necessarily evil per se, are not what most people would define as virtuous alongside a morality system that says that says some of the people delving into this dungeon are going to be lawful and virtuous. So what you end up with is a game that needs to justify how going into a dungeon, murdering the guys who live inside it and clearing out all the shinies is actually an act that a lawful good character would totally do... For the longest time, the big joke with paladins was that their alignment restrictions functionally meant they couldn't play the game in the same manner as other characters. Either they'd be played like a murderhobo, which by the rules meant they should fall and lose their powers, or they'd get stuck policing all the murderhobos...which incentivized finding an excuse to make the paladin fall so that everyone else could get back to having fun. So as you said, the solution to this dilemma is to stress that murderhoboing can be perfectly lawful good. Adding good and evil to D&D really was its original sin. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Mar 30, 2022 |
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Mar 29, 2022 23:49
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Spelljammer had Bionoids, which were engineered WMDs in the form of sentient self-contained Guyvers. Elves are real assholes in Spelljammer; colonizer, patronizing assholes perfectly happy to condemn entire planets for their own convenience. Also Witchlight Marauders. And others.
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Mar 30, 2022 01:24
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Rand Brittain posted:I think the idea was that orcs were more like the response to an infection, like the elves enchanted the earth so it would produce orc hordes as a form of heightened planetary immune response, and then made the Orc Lord to direct them, but yeah, maybe you just shouldn't. Again this is literally just what 40k did in that the Orks are an out of control bioweapon made as a last resort to fight the Necrons (evil Terminator skeleton robots who have a grudge against all other life for existing) who long outlived their creators. And the real funny thing is that none of this poo poo is necessary when you just have humans. Mind you, apparently elves and dwarves and orcs were apparently begrudging additions to D&D that Gygax supposedly resented when he just wanted Conan style fantasy adventure. (Which of course has its own problems)
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Mar 30, 2022 05:36
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With fantasy and sci-fi, it's common for writers to want to add in weird elements for the sake of the weird idea, even if there's no greater philosophical purpose meant to be expressed. That's often the dominant purpose of the genre, in fact. Just to have wild fantastical concepts. Even when the weird things are meant to be metaphor or allegory, they can easily drift away from the original intention to just be weird things standing on their own. In 40k, when one of the factions is literally a fungal infection and a scourge upon the galaxy, that still leaves them on par with most of the other factions; probably better than most, the Orks are fun guys. There was a whole thing during the War of the Beast where Orkz developed into high enough concentrations that they started turning into a complex state with diplomats even. Maybe the orkz could develop beyond being just a scourge on the galaxy someday. But probably not.
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Mar 30, 2022 07:57
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TheCenturion posted:Spelljammer had Bionoids, which were engineered WMDs in the form of sentient self-contained Guyvers.
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Mar 30, 2022 09:10
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SlothfulCobra posted:In 40k, when one of the factions is literally a fungal infection and a scourge upon the galaxy, that still leaves them on par with most of the other factions; probably better than most, the Orks are fun guys. 
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Mar 30, 2022 09:21
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SlothfulCobra posted:With fantasy and sci-fi, it's common for writers to want to add in weird elements for the sake of the weird idea, even if there's no greater philosophical purpose meant to be expressed. That's often the dominant purpose of the genre, in fact. Just to have wild fantastical concepts. Even when the weird things are meant to be metaphor or allegory, they can easily drift away from the original intention to just be weird things standing on their own. The Orks are pretty bad too, FWIW. Keep in mind that this is the species that had Margaret Thatcher added to it. They're hyper-violent uncultured and douchey soccer hooligans in space that exist to krump poo poo up and steal what isn't theirs. It's just that the viewers can see the more humorous perspective of them due to the macro perspective that partially obscures all the awful stuff they do. Like invading a planet, taking over it's civilian areas, and then running labor death camps to maximize looting the place while efficiently killing the survivors like in that one space wolf novel that showed what they get up too off screen. Edit: As a side note, WH40k as a whole can extremely easily be seen as a satire of conservative ideas and "values" across the centuries. An act that is mostly done by having the writers go "Oh, so ______ thing is true? Well here's the nightmarish dystopian hellscape that would result if you were telling the truth and weren't lying poo poo bags out for yourselves while screwing over everyone else." and then ramping up the consequences of that to eleven. Like, you could lay this out in a conversation to really piss off conservatives and fascists that are into gaming. That is, you could do this if they didn't willingly blind themselves to this to try and appropriate the game making fun of them due to the closest thing to good guys in it being genocidal hyper fashy theocrats (The writers were way ahead of the curve with that one.). Just to start off with the big one: You say that every other religion other than Christianity are comprised of evil heathens and demons who need to be shown their proper place? Whelp, guess what. In Warhammer 40K they loving are. And your soul ain't going to heaven no matter what when you die. In fact, your belief in them being awful coupled with the own innate hateful towards others alongside the generally awful state of your beliefs is a direct contributor to why the galaxy is such a gently caress awful place to live! But never fear, for their are valiant defenders of mankind in this festering turd of a galaxy! Like the Inquisition, which enforces the will of In fact, it's so bad that even deviating from the mean of whatever a human is in a given location by so much can get you purged. Why? Because mutants are treated badly and therefore have a tendency to turn to whatever cold comforts they get and psychics (Literally witches according to some factions of the Imperium, I should add.) are prone to going full on demonic horrorfest via getting possessed by a demon of those evil And never forget the most elite of the elite, the Space Marines. Which are secretly such stunted brainwashed man children meant to act as disposable shock troops that the last time they realized just how little the Emperor cared for them it literally started a galactic war that's still technically ongoing to this day. All that talk about honor, pride, or And did I mention that the Emperor is such a racist militant atheist that he'd make other racist "atheists" like Dawkins and co look sane in their post 9/11 bigotry by comparison? And lest we forget, this is the Emperor who basically  ed so hard that he had to embark on a series of events that would inevitably turn himself into an eternally shrieking and even more eternally tortured skeleton seated on a golden throne (technically making him a literal golden idol that he is worshipped as) feeding off the souls of countless children to even have a chance of slowing down the total extermination of humanity after he hosed up in "saving" it with his hyper authoritarian policies. Policies that totally weren't also setting himself up to be turned into a new chaos god like the eldar did by murderfucking Slaanesh into existence on a galactic scale. So, uh, yeah. Dude was pretty clearly an arrogant gently caress up disproving the great man theory on a narrative wide level.He did this after alienating all of his potential allies and exterminating an even more technologically advanced human empire that had successfully contained chaos. The latter of which is something that even he couldn't do as his solution to Chaos was basically "I dunno, we'll pirate/diplomacy our way into the xenophobic space elves webway project to avoid Chaos forever. Since this is clearly a foolproof plan that can't fail at all. Also, Commorragh? What's that? It sounds like an Ork trying to have an orgasm. Relax. Nothing will go wrong with this plan. I am a genius because I am older than you. ".Also also, please don't forget the slew of people who kept screaming at him to grow the gently caress up and stop being such an edgelordy authoritarian rear end in a top hat. To which he basically laughed and said he was above consequences. Suffice to say that he kind of got [s]the blood of an entire galaxy] egg on his face there with that little gently caress up. And don't forget the anime space communists, the Tau! Who can and will literally brainwash you into space communism like how some conservatives liked to fearmonger about. I could go on as there is a laundry list of things to point out, but I don't want to get into an essay on it. But yeah. Warhammer 40k ain't conservative friendly at all. Archonex fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Mar 30, 2022 |
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Mar 30, 2022 09:42
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Archonex posted:
Ah...yes, that's 
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Mar 30, 2022 10:32
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Charlz Guybon posted:Ah...yes, that's You know, you use that emote, but it's shocking how many people really, really, really don't get the joke. I remember laying this out to someone back in college and it was like all the neurons in their brain started firing at once once I pieced it together for them. Prior to that the appeal was just "Wow, this game is dark and metal as gently caress!" alongside the usual morbid fascination in seeing how bad things would get for the characters in it. At least opening up that can of worms was a heck of an eye opening conversation though. Going from him saying something like "Well, the Krieg are just inspired off of WW1 and WW2 Germany! It doesn't necessarily mean anything!" to "Wait, so you're telling me the Imperium is Space Christianity, and the whole dark gods thing is a riff on the hosed up ways Christianity treated other religions when it was the dominant religion in an area?" was a trip and a half, complete with an entire emotional arc as the guy realized he had been accidentally rooting for the literal nazis of the setting. Kinda wonder if you could even get someone to realize that nowadays what with many conservatives embracing literal white supremacists, genocidal religious zealots, and neo-nazis with no shame whatsoever. Archonex fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Mar 30, 2022 |
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Mar 30, 2022 10:34
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Terrible Opinions posted:Though to Spelljammers credit the bionoids are straight up the good guys victimized by the genocidal elf empire. Oh yeah, absolutely. It’s an examination of cycles of violence, child soldiers, conscription, surprisingly deep for D&D INNNNN SPAAAAACCCCCEEEE.
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Mar 30, 2022 10:53
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Also a big thing to realise that the Space Marines are the least loyal forces of the Imperium statistically. And there's also hints scattered throughout the lore that they were never meant to still be operating anywhere near 10,000 years later, with many having built-in flaws that were supposed to destroy them. The Emperor's grand plan for the galaxy all went horribly wrong in the worst possible ways, and he really wasn't meant to be a literal rotting almost-corpse on life support kept alive by desperate atrocities and worshiped in exactly the way he wanted to avoid. If The Emperor Had A Text-To-Speech Device has basically taken over lore for a lot of people but even it's whole joke is being as accurate as it can manage not counting jokes; the Emperor being still a narcissist who is all but unable to acknowledge any mistakes or flaws in his actions being his fault, constantly talking down to everyone and everything, and as they spell out, while he doesn't want to be literally considered a god, he considers ideal treatment to be as if he were a living god.
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Mar 30, 2022 11:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Again this is literally just what 40k did in that the Orks are an out of control bioweapon made as a last resort to fight the Necrons (evil Terminator skeleton robots who have a grudge against all other life for existing) who long outlived their creators. The implication in 13th Age (which is malleable, with the ST and players expected to give their own spin while building the world together) is that they weren't a 'last resort'. They were just one tool/tactic the elves took against the Dragon Empire and the High Wizard. If anything they're the magical equivalent of mines left behind, with the elves denying that they had anything to do with. Then you have assholes like The Three, the Diabolist, and the Crusader taking advantage of them before you even get to the Orc Lord.
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Mar 30, 2022 15:35
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Archonex posted:You know, you use that emote, but it's shocking how many people really, really, really don't get the joke. And if that's part of the satire, (1) why does this deep-cut subtlety come out for the space nazis in a setting where the orks get led by literally margaret thatcher, and (2) at this point is this really giving more people laffs than it's showing others 'hey cool fascist spaceman'? edit: like, for tabletop murdergame fascism analogues, compare and contrast the skaven from warhammer fantasy. Very few people unironically/mistakenly/whatever think of the backstabbing cowardly nazi rats whose weaponry explodes in their faces as the noble heroes of the setting. Drakyn fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Mar 30, 2022 |
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Mar 30, 2022 15:55
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Drakyn posted:(1) why does this deep-cut subtlety come out for the space nazis in a setting where the orks get led by literally margaret thatcher This is WAAAGH! Grimtoof erasure.
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Mar 30, 2022 16:14
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Drakyn posted:Including a substantial portion of the people making the setting. I mean, however satirical someone intended it to be at some point, let's not pretend the most common portrayal of Warhammer 40k's Space Marines - fan, corporate, or otherwise - is anywhere close to that of an evil fascist fundamentalist lunatic stormtrooper who any sane audience member eagerly watches die in a hilariously pathetic way due to his hypocritical blinkeredness rather than say, the protagonist who does badass cool stuff and alas has tragic flaws with blind spots and like the bad guys are his old buddies who've gone evil and poo poo woaaaaah cor. I mean I think it was this thread like 4-5 months ago where I was arguing with people who seriously thought the Skaven weren’t Nazis so uh, keep that in mind.
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Mar 30, 2022 16:43
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Xiahou Dun posted:I mean I think it was this thread like 4-5 months ago where I was arguing with people who seriously thought the Skaven weren’t Nazis so uh, keep that in mind.
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Mar 30, 2022 16:53
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Drakyn posted:Including a substantial portion of the people making the setting. I mean, however satirical someone intended it to be at some point, let's not pretend the most common portrayal of Warhammer 40k's Space Marines - fan, corporate, or otherwise - is anywhere close to that of an evil fascist fundamentalist lunatic stormtrooper who any sane audience member eagerly watches die in a hilariously pathetic way due to his hypocritical blinkeredness rather than say, the protagonist who does badass cool stuff and alas has tragic flaws with blind spots and like the bad guys are his old buddies who've gone evil and poo poo woaaaaah cor. GW is pretty on the ball about telling us that the Imperium aren't to be admired (particularly when there is yet another story of someone coming to a tourney with Space Marines with Nazi symbols), but showing it has been a different matter. GW recently did a whole video showing a Space Marine getting suited up as a protracted religious service. And even if you know all the lore about the Imperium and why it's sucks, it's hard not to see that the message of that short is "Cool Space Marine!" If the video wanted to show that Space Marines are a stupid idea, they could have intercut the video with an imperial planet getting overrun by whatever, and then at the end of the video the Space Marine walks into a transport/drop pod that is clearly meant to hold 9 more marines.
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Mar 30, 2022 18:00
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The Imperial forces should all have the wacky random failure tables they've given to chaos and orks throughout the series.
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Mar 30, 2022 18:10
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Xiahou Dun posted:I mean I think it was this thread like 4-5 months ago where I was arguing with people who seriously thought the Skaven weren’t Nazis so uh, keep that in mind. The W40K Empire is written to to be about 9 parts Victorian British Empire to one part Nazi. See, for example, how Cain is a more or direct port of Flashman. The Empire is the status quo, not an upstart threat. Its actually good at war; it’s military achievements are genuinely impressive and long lasting, not solely a result of surprise attacks on the unprepared. While it is clearly structurally bad, above and beyond the individual decisions of bad actors, it is so for non-obvious complex reasons. See you can write semi-sympathetic characters who honestly think it is better than the alternatives, and that merely getting rid of that one bad Commisar/inquisitor/Emperor will solve half its issues. It doesn’t really make any internal sense to give it the specifically Nazi characteristics that made them so distinctively bad at war; that’s more a Skaven thing.
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Mar 30, 2022 18:48
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radmonger posted:The W40K Empire is written to to be about 9 parts Victorian British Empire to one part Nazi. See, for example, how Cain is a more or direct port of Flashman. Did you like read my post at all?
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Mar 30, 2022 19:03
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Archonex posted:You know, you use that emote, but it's shocking how many people really, really, really don't get the joke. Well, it's not really consistently told as a joke. Like definitely earlier on in 40k's conception, there's a lot of jokes happening and it's easier to take it as just something silly, but over time as the franchise goes on, there's a lot that gets played straight rather than as a parody. They sort of carve out a territory within all that weird parody to be serious about things because that way they can tell straightforward stories to just keep people interested in the setting and even be able to feel like their army that they bought and painted are actually cool and good somehow or another. I think the main avenues they give to the players to feel good about various armies and characters are:
Archonex posted:The Orks are pretty bad too, FWIW. Orks don't usually steal, because the technology they rely on works on their own weird psychic field to make it work. Except for squigs, which they stole from Tyranids because they looked orky enough for them. Okay, also they do slavery, but that doesn't come up much.
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Mar 30, 2022 19:05
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SlothfulCobra posted:
Lmao, this is incredibly incredibly wrong. Their entire culture and technology base is based around looting things (after the fight of course) and "making them orky". A long running joke in the tabletop model making community is having kitbashed models that are looted, like a looted carnifex. Like half their vehicles are imperial vehicles with extra bits welded on. There is an entire well known sub-faction of stereotypical pirate orks. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Mar 30, 2022 |
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Mar 30, 2022 19:13
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Weren't the War of the Beast novels poorly received because they tried to do a serious portrayal of Orks and the result was "human meat farms"?
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Mar 30, 2022 19:13
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The Imperium being bad is usually glossed over with a general framing of "well the universe out there is even worse" and 40k usually frames the Space Marines as Totally Badass so people not getting the joke is no shocker because it's not really been "the joke" in living memory for most people. It was "the joke" back in the loving 80s.
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Mar 30, 2022 19:15
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SirPhoebos posted:Weren't the War of the Beast novels poorly received because they tried to do a serious portrayal of Orks and the result was "human meat farms"? But that's not the point of Orks. They exist as a source of levity in the setting and as the perfect enemy to fight (but with more personality and flair than the other perfect enemies, Tyranids). Focusing on the logistics and barbarity of the Beast just undercuts the aspects of Orks that differentiate them from any other Evil Aliens. Edit: And I'll point out that WH40K is for the most part entirely uninterested in dealing with the reality of war on any front. Massive piles of bodies exist merely for our characters to stand upon, and nothing more. Tibalt fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Mar 30, 2022 |
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Mar 30, 2022 19:30
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Telsa Cola posted:Lmao, this is incredibly incredibly wrong. Their entire culture and technology base is based around looting things (after the fight of course) and "making them orky".
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Mar 30, 2022 19:30
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