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Eric the Mauve posted:30% wouldn't tempt me in the slightest to trade remote for an open plan office. The commute alone would eat up most of the marginal gain. That's me; you have to decide what staying remote is worth to you. I misspoke, I am currently at 60:40 office:remote, my commute right now is also awesome, the other place is only slightly worse. (Both are within my city and reachable by public transport without transfer) But you are right, I should factor in the "grain of salt" she put out about returning to office only and negotiate that into my contract as a non-optional part rather than just "hope" for the company policy sticking around. asur posted:The value of work from home is almost entirely dependent on your commute. If it's a 5 minute walk then it's very low, 15 minute drive is moderate, 30+ is high and an hour+ is you couldn't pay me enough. One way to look at it is to value the additional time you have to spend though this comes out to a low value to me, 30 min each way would be around 12.5%. I actually like wfh for other reasons, like the "disconnect" from office life and other distractions. My commute is <30 minute by tram right now and would probably be more like 50 minutes to the other place by bus. I really can't stand open floor plan offices, it's just too many people doing their own thing, having people over, being on calls etc. Arquinsiel posted:What this tells me is that they view promises as more guidelines. At best. They have shown their cards about interpreting rules as guidelines, which they genuinely seem to use "both ways", and it's indeed a bit of a warning sign, but the position I applied for isn't affected by this "culture" too much as far as I can gather. Considering my current employer also sees certain rules or laws only as guidelines, it wouldn't really be a step down in that regard. I guess I have learned to work around that sorta thing and it's not my #1 priority right now.
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Apr 1, 2022 06:57
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Im having my first annual review in 3 months with this company and I want to see if I can land a 5% raise. My friends here say that everyone gets 3% as a general rule unless they have performance issues, and that the raise is given to employees rather than negotiated, as in it’s usually decided beforehand. (I’m new to the corporate world and it’s my first real big kid job so idk how common this is) I think I’ve earned the 5%, but I’m sure I’ll be told “we really hear you and see you but for budget reasons we can’t go above 3  ”Because I have 0 alternatives, and am really really new to this position and industry (it’s a miracle I landed this job), it looks like they hold all the cards. What can I do at this point? At the very least, I want to make a spirited effort and get that experience under my belt. 3% would be a little disappointing, but I’d be more disappointed if I didn’t push back a little and try.
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Apr 1, 2022 07:47
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Talking with your boss more than 3 months in advance is the best way "Hey I know you guys start budgeting for raises three months before you give them, I want one, I deserve 5% what do I need to do to make that happen" Also with 7% inflation a 5% raise is arguably not maintaining purchasing parity
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Apr 1, 2022 07:51
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Lockback posted:Re: unpaid internship. Are you currently in school? How do you feel your resume & skills look like without an internship? What are you trying to get out of this particular internship? I just graduated college, and I recently secured a modestly paying professional position set to start this July. This looks like an interesting position because it deals with several issues I'm interested in. But I don't think I could afford to do any work for people no matter how modest. Not to mention how scummy unpaid internships are. https://www.moonlighthubbconsulting.com/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=idealist
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Apr 1, 2022 13:55
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Yeah, 3 months at least. Raise time I can't do anything to change the numbers, the boat has sailed.Nirvikalpa posted:I just graduated college, and I recently secured a modestly paying professional position set to start this July. This looks like an interesting position because it deals with several issues I'm interested in. But I don't think I could afford to do any work for people no matter how modest. Not to mention how scummy unpaid internships are. So this looks like Volunteering, not an unpaid internship? Or am I wrong? If it's volunteering, sure do that if you want. The benefits for you there are the general warm and fuzzies, that's fine if you want to do it. If you are asking about career benefits, probably not worth it on that basis alone. Yeah, in general if you are employed in that field there is nothing good to come from an unpaid internship except in really, really niche situations in which you wouldn't be asking our advice.
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Apr 1, 2022 15:27
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I did an unpaid internship for an elected official and it was a good time, but also it felt privileged since my parents could afford to house and feed me during that time. For a for-profit company though? Yeesh
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Apr 1, 2022 15:35
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Inner Light posted:I did an unpaid internship for an elected official and it was a good time, but also it felt privileged since my parents could afford to house and feed me during that time. For a for-profit company though? Yeesh Yeah, or if you are an active college student and the hours are reasonable you can think of it like a free college course instead of an unpaid internship, especially if you can get credit for it. So I think there is some daylight there where it makes sense for certain people. I mean, we pay our interns reasonably decently at my company which just seems better, but I get there are only so many of those.
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Apr 1, 2022 15:40
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Lockback posted:So this looks like Volunteering, not an unpaid internship? Or am I wrong? If it's volunteering, sure do that if you want. The benefits for you there are the general warm and fuzzies, that's fine if you want to do it. If you are asking about career benefits, probably not worth it on that basis alone. I think I'm going to decline the offer if I can't get paid. The employer makes her income directly based off of the work her unpaid interns do, which is not that great.
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Apr 1, 2022 15:48
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buglord posted:Im having my first annual review in 3 months with this company and I want to see if I can land a 5% raise. My friends here say that everyone gets 3% as a general rule unless they have performance issues, and that the raise is given to employees rather than negotiated, as in it’s usually decided beforehand. (I’m new to the corporate world and it’s my first real big kid job so idk how common this is) I think I’ve earned the 5%, but I’m sure I’ll be told “we really hear you and see you but for budget reasons we can’t go above 3 You can try, but annual reviews are usually cost of living increases as opposed to real raises. Every job I've worked at has a pool of money given to each manager/department/whatever that can be distributed evenly (everyone gets 3% or whatever the allotment is), but is adjusted for performance (if you did a bad job you might only get like 1.5%), but it still comes out of the same pool. So if you got, say, 4%, it means that 1% would be taken out of someone else's annual increase (or spread out among a few people). Sometimes managers can get approval to give you more without penalizing anyone else- it's happened to me before- but usually you'll know they're going to bat for you to try to do that well ahead of time (at least in my experience). You would have to be *excelling* at your job and have a pretty significant case to make that happen, if it's even an option for your manager. It's been mentioned many times before in this thread, but if you want an actual decent raise, you have to try to get it going off-cycle and not with yearly reviews. Even then, it wont' be nearly as much as you'd get from going to a totally different company (though if this is your first corporate job I'm guessing you aren't trying to jump ship right now- but you could try!).
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Apr 1, 2022 15:49
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Nirvikalpa posted:I think I'm going to decline the offer if I can't get paid. The employer makes her income directly based off of the work her unpaid interns do, which is not that great. Oh yeah she can go gently caress herself with a chainsaw.
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Apr 1, 2022 16:08
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Nirvikalpa posted:I think I'm going to decline the offer if I can't get paid. The employer makes her income directly based off of the work her unpaid interns do, which is not that great. That just sounds like slavery
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Apr 1, 2022 16:48
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it's not slavery if its voluntary it's still scummy and exploitive, though!
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Apr 1, 2022 18:37
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drat, loopholed again! I also think I just went through an entire interview process without talking numbers at all. I’m trying to look back and see (and my memory is awful). Expecting an offer but I have a bad feeling about the $. Is that something I can just ask (today was round 3 with HR, I asked everything else)? I’ll figure this stuff out eventually, I am at least getting to try some of the techniques.
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Apr 1, 2022 22:03
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It's better for you to go as long as you can in the process without talking money.
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Apr 1, 2022 22:08
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:drat, loopholed again! I'd recommend asking about money on the 2nd contact with the company in question. You make the first contact all about the job and whether you think it may be a good fit, and then you ask about money to make sure you aren't wasting anyone's time (both yours, or the company in question). You can even phrase the question that way, "I wouldn't want to waste anyone's time in case our expectations on comp are far apart, what's the range for this position?" If you're deep into the interview process and you haven't brought this up yet, you probably want to wait until they make you an offer and then negotiate for more money or pass on the job. Don't be afraid to ask for more money. It's extremely common to get a lovely initial offer, with the recruiter having clearance to negotiate for more ahead of time. People who don't negotiate get hosed. Tektolnes fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Apr 3, 2022 |
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Apr 3, 2022 21:37
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Lockback posted:It's better for you to go as long as you can in the process without talking money. Disagree. It's a waste of everyone's time if you go through the entire interview process and decide against because it doesn't pay enough. Exceptions to this would be for a specialized skill or a high-impact role where they're more likely to be flexible on comp.
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Apr 3, 2022 21:38
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Tektolnes posted:Disagree. It's a waste of everyone's time if you go through the entire interview process and decide against because it doesn't pay enough. Exceptions to this would be for a specialized skill or a high-impact role where they're more likely to be flexible on comp. Who cares if it's a waste of the companies time. They could have at any point in the interview process clearly stated what they're willing to pay. For the vast majority of applicants, it is highly advantageous to not bring up money first.
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Apr 3, 2022 22:03
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I went through the process recently where the place I was interviewing for had a manager who was previously at my current work so he had an idea of what salaries were like there and said they were “significantly better” and I got through the entire process to get an offer that was fundamentally the same as what I was making already. I said I was expecting to go up at least %50 because I had an offer in that range and they said ohhh no that’s too much so we ended it there. It was kind of weird they had no idea what constituted a good offer, like at all. Especially having first hand knowledge from my current company at the time! I don’t feel like I wasted their time but I do feel they kind of wasted mine with giving me too high expectations.
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Apr 3, 2022 22:09
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Tektolnes posted:Disagree. It's a waste of everyone's time if you go through the entire interview process and decide against because it doesn't pay enough. Exceptions to this would be for a specialized skill or a high-impact role where they're more likely to be flexible on comp. The longer you go through the process the more they have a chance of focusing on you as a candidate and increases how much they don't want to start the very expensive hiring process over again. The time it takes you to interview vs the potential increase in salary is ridiculously high return, don't worry about wasting time.
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Apr 3, 2022 23:26
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Any tips on negotiating longer time to consider a job offer? I took a job when I should have waited for other offers, now I'm getting better offers and feel a bit stuck.
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Apr 4, 2022 02:01
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If you're American you can just not show up to the one you agreed to, its allowed. Just not working if you don't want to is the only good thing about our hosed up labor laws.
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Apr 4, 2022 03:00
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Vinny Possum posted:Any tips on negotiating longer time to consider a job offer? I took a job when I should have waited for other offers, now I'm getting better offers and feel a bit stuck. Did you accept the job and start any sort of paperwork?
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Apr 4, 2022 03:30
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I started the job, but haven't signed anything, because I was real desperate for employment. In retrospect, this was probably a bad decision.
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Apr 4, 2022 03:38
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Vinny Possum posted:I started the job, but haven't signed anything, because I was real desperate for employment. I'm thinking you're good and it'll be a minor headache to entertain the other, better offers
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Apr 4, 2022 03:47
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Lockback posted:The longer you go through the process the more they have a chance of focusing on you as a candidate and increases how much they don't want to start the very expensive hiring process over again. Completely depends on the job. If you're looking to join a company that has 100 people who do the same job as what you're applying for, the wages are fixed and you're literally wasting your time if the comp sucks. If you're applying for a role that is less of a commodity then sure, you can wait it out and see at the end of the process... if you don't value your time very much.
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Apr 4, 2022 05:06
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Tektolnes posted:Completely depends on the job. If you're looking to join a company that has 100 people who do the same job as what you're applying for, the wages are fixed and you're literally wasting your time if the comp sucks. If you're applying for a role that is less of a commodity then sure, you can wait it out and see at the end of the process... if you don't value your time very much. Most people in the thread need interview and negotiation practice.
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Apr 4, 2022 05:18
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SEKCobra posted:But you are right, I should factor in the "grain of salt" she put out about returning to office only and negotiate that into my contract as a non-optional part rather than just "hope" for the company policy sticking around. If you're going to negotiate this, I think the angle I would take is that the 'home office' is the place you report to work normally, and also clarify that (in addition) if WFH policy changes in the future that commute time and travel costs are paid by work. Pretty sure this is How It Works normally if a job makes you start traveling all over the place; you want to build in future leverage and costs if they want to cancel WFH. Nirvikalpa posted:I think I'm going to decline the offer if I can't get paid. The employer makes her income directly based off of the work her unpaid interns do, which is not that great. From what I understand unpaid internship laws that do benefit the company are illegal(usa); so you're well within your rights to ask to be paid. It looks like they're looking for free labor tho. If you want to burn a bridge, it might be a 'report to dol/' sort of thing.
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Apr 4, 2022 05:45
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Vinny Possum posted:Any tips on negotiating longer time to consider a job offer? I took a job when I should have waited for other offers, now I'm getting better offers and feel a bit stuck. Just ask, but if they don't give you additional time then just accept the job and quit if you get better offers. Assuming you didn't sign a fixed term contract there is nothing preventing you from accepting a better offer and you should.
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Apr 4, 2022 08:23
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Tektolnes posted:if you don't value your time very much. A more realistic scenario is 3 wasted interviews and $50k more per year for a return of $25k/hr. Describing negotiating as not valuing one's own time is probably the dumbest thing ever posted in this thread.
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Apr 4, 2022 11:38
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asur posted:Just ask, but if they don't give you additional time then just accept the job and quit if you get better offers. Assuming you didn't sign a fixed term contract there is nothing preventing you from accepting a better offer and you should. This will burn a bridge hard though. Sometimes it's worth it, in some industries/locations it's not. Just be aware. Telling a company "just kidding, I withdraw my offer" isn't as bad but then you lose out on that job. So yeah, not really a risk free way forward here, depends on how that job lines up against potential other offers.
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Apr 4, 2022 13:08
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Lockback posted:This will burn a bridge hard though. Sometimes it's worth it, in some industries/locations it's not. Just be aware.
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Apr 4, 2022 13:41
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Hadlock posted:Also with 7% inflation a 5% raise is arguably not maintaining purchasing parity
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Apr 4, 2022 14:24
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Results back from my partner at the weird EU place in the bay area, he got a 3.75% raise. He asked for an 8% raise. Context is this was his first job after PhD with a hard transition from a social science (with a lot of math) to tech R&D, and he had been there for 8 months. Not great at all given inflation, but he is also expecting a promotion this year. Now if that doesn't happen, then he's going job hunting.
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Apr 4, 2022 14:42
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Better idea: go job hunting right now
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Apr 4, 2022 14:45
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Eric the Mauve posted:Better idea: go job hunting right now This. You can check my posts in this thread for how I tried to get a raise and regret not just loving leaving since I wasted a bunch of time where I would already be elsewhere.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:14
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Just to provide a counterpoint. I was expecting (but didn't verbalize my expectation) a promotion H1 last year based on my elevation to team lead and taking on two direct reports. I got a premium rating but no promo. Had a frank chat with my manager and we laid out what needed to happen for me to get to the next level. Did those things and was promoted the next half (H2) with a 25% increase in total comp as opposed to some of the insulting increases I've seen mentioned here and elsewhere from an internal promotion. All that to say, promo promises aren't always just carrots but it will be heavily dependent on your manager and company. Never hurts to "always be interviewing" but that can be draining, especially if you have no real desire to leave your current company.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:20
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He's been at his company full time for 10 months now, as his first job in tech (and first after his PhD) and doesn't feel his resume is strong enough to get a good offer. AND he likes his job and boss and would prefer not to leave. I'll be pushing him to interview later this year given the work he's put out. His boss is clearly putting him in high visibility roles, they're just also a giant corporation that on the national level HR has the expected power over promotion tracks. All that combined with getting married in June and nothings happening until at least the end of summer.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:33
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I mean if you're complacent and fear change (i.e. if you are normal, this describes most humans) then the healthiest thing for you is to own it and just accept that this is and will continue to be your salary. CF, your success story is awesome but the reality is that 90% of the time "oh yeah a promotion in the future for you is definitely a possibility" is an illusory carrot. And the reason this is true is because from the company's perspective it works extremely well. And the reason that is true is that 90% of the time when an employee says to self or others "yeah if I don't get the raise/promotion/whatever I want in the next cycle then I'm definitely going to start looking for something else" but they don't mean it, they're just blowing off steam, they will passively stay in the job being underpaid for years with just normal background-noise grumbling. In any case you got your success story because you were willing to take the risk of saying to the people above you "I do not want to stay in my current role, I want a clearly defined road map to promotion in the near future." You'd never get anywhere just passively grumbling that "man if this doesn't happen soon I'm so outta here"--but that's exactly what most people spend their whole lives doing. Spikes32 posted:He's been at his company full time for 10 months now, as his first job in tech (and first after his PhD) and doesn't feel his resume is strong enough to get a good offer. AND he likes his job and boss and would prefer not to leave. I'll be pushing him to interview later this year given the work he's put out. His boss is clearly putting him in high visibility roles, they're just also a giant corporation that on the national level HR has the expected power over promotion tracks. I mean okay, sure. The tl;dr is that for the foreseeable future the company owns him. Let's wait a year and see if he's actually motivated to advance or if he's just content to leave his fate in the hands of others (always the least scary option to most people). Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 4, 2022 |
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Apr 4, 2022 15:34
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All fair points and I appreciate them.
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Apr 4, 2022 15:44
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Spikes32 posted:He's been at his company full time for 10 months now, as his first job in tech (and first after his PhD) and doesn't feel his resume is strong enough to get a good offer. AND he likes his job and boss and would prefer not to leave. I'll be pushing him to interview later this year given the work he's put out. His boss is clearly putting him in high visibility roles, they're just also a giant corporation that on the national level HR has the expected power over promotion tracks.
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Apr 4, 2022 17:54
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