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Splicer posted:" Now stop talking about it Tom has robots to slut shame." "Why are you giving this HP computer shapely legs and lingerie?" "TO MAKE IT REALIZE HOW FAR AWAY IT IS FROM THE LIGHT OF GOD!"
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Apr 6, 2022 14:59
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Rand Brittain posted:
Yeah that's why it's Tony Time baybee!!!
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Apr 6, 2022 15:11
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I feel like this is the page where Loup starts to "die". He gets so caught up in his thoughts as Jerrick that he lets his hair down absentmindedly and starts contemplating the nature of existence.
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Apr 6, 2022 15:19
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There Bias Two posted:I feel like this is the page where Loup starts to "die". He gets so caught up in his thoughts as Jerrick that he lets his hair down absentmindedly and starts contemplating the nature of existence. Of course! The secret to defeating Loup was to monologue into the camera! It's so simple!
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Apr 6, 2022 16:15
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worm girl posted:Actually I struggle very badly with anxiety and am on the spectrum, but do go on. lots of people are fine one-on-one with people they're intimately familiar with and increasingly uncomfortable in crowds, to the point of emotionally shutting down and disassociating and poo poo. Lots of modern-day people IRL "don't know why they are the way they are" even though therapists and WebMD canonically exist in the real world. What's been depicted reads very straightforwardly as a not-uncommon brand of social anxiety, a not-uncommon tendency to let one's own mental issues fester because if you took responsibility for dealing with them that'd mean you were responsible for your actions as well, and a not-uncommon form of coping with an abusive parent (basically just accepting they're not gonna change, take it or leave it); being handled in a narratively unsatisfactory way that leaves people wishing there was more to it despite the story neither suggesting nor in any way improved by Tony being supernaturally cursed with mundane poor coping skills. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 16:22
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worm girl posted:Here you go. Tony is a surgeon and he's speaking to a creature that's been alive since the dawn of life on earth. I think if it was a mundane problem, then between the two of them they'd be able to sort out a diagnosis beyond "man i dunno, this weird thing happens whenever there's more than exactly one person in the room with me, and for some reason Annie counts as two people." Neither Tony nor Jones know poo poo about psychology.
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Apr 6, 2022 17:39
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worm girl posted:If that's where you're at, then Zimmy's situation is an overwrought metaphor for schizophrenia, and if you're being that dismissive of the comic then IDK why you'd care about it at all. holy poo poo, what the gently caress are you talking about? a person who has real affects on the physical world around her that others are capable of seeing and interacting with, vs. a guy who gets fuckin anxious in crowds? please, you've written some arrogant and obnoxious poo poo in this thread before, but this is actually egregious, what the gently caress. Niavmai fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 17:55
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Splicer posted:I was typing up a bunch of words but I can skip a bunch by using this as a jumping off point:
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Apr 6, 2022 17:59
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it certainly doesn't seem inaccurate to most abusive relationships I've seen lol. kinda feel like people would have less trouble parsing or accepting a narrative about a dad who lets his unwillingness to deal with his own issues drive him into behaving monstrously and a daughter who learns to live with the fact that she can't change him if the comic looked like fuckin Weedeater or something instead of a YA fantasy school story. At no prior point in the comic has Annie telling everyone everything's okay meant it's actually okay. also if the author, uh, gave any impression he was doing anything with that idea, instead of spending the front two-thirds of the story building up to it then just kinda wandering off to do an apparently unrelated high fantasy robot v. wolf war. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 18:14
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:it certainly doesn't seem inaccurate to most abusive relationships I've seen lol. kinda feel like people would have less trouble parsing or accepting a narrative about a dad who lets his unwillingness to deal with his own issues drive him into behaving monstrously and a daughter who learns to live with the fact that she can't change him if the comic looked like fuckin Weedeater or something instead of a YA fantasy school story Honestly you could even write something like Annie living with that kind of abuse effectively by not framing her as being correct and having the final say. The easiest fix I can see in doing that is reversing the order of that chapter. Start out with Annie monologuing to Jones, then have Jones talk to Tony, and then end with the concern all of her friends have about the situation. Pretty rough and off the top of my head, but the order would change the perspective that maybe her view isn't entirely healthy.
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Apr 6, 2022 18:23
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:it certainly doesn't seem inaccurate to most abusive relationships I've seen lol. kinda feel like people would have less trouble parsing or accepting a narrative about a dad who lets his unwillingness to deal with his own issues drive him into behaving monstrously and a daughter who learns to live with the fact that she can't change him if the comic looked like fuckin Weedeater or something instead of a YA fantasy school story. At no prior point in the comic has Annie telling everyone everything's okay meant it's actually okay. I just... read this whole page again. Really look at that last panel. It just obliterates the fourth wall.
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Apr 6, 2022 18:26
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Niavmai posted:please, you've written some arrogant and obnoxious poo poo in this thread before, but this is actually egregious, what the gently caress. It's just a webcomic. I don't think you need to flip out at me about it. worm girl fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 18:45
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worm girl posted:It's just a webcomic. I don't think you need to flip out at me because I think Tony might have magical anxiety. no i'm "flipping out" at you because you're constantly apologizing for the author and being outright insulting to the people who take issue with the things he's writing. you made a random "you must think this other character is also bad," when literally no one has ever said anything negative about the way zimmy is presented. you reach for an unrelated argument that no one has ever made, because it seems to be the only way you can make a point. putting words in our mouths, and then addressing those words that were never said. it's bullshit, fuckin stop. we have reasonable arguments and logic in this thread, and you're coming at us with dumbass tangents and accusations. e: cool edit Niavmai fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 18:52
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Splicer posted:https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2468 Yeah. I've said this before, but while the comments aren't a good yardstick of how something is necessarily supposed to be read (god knows there's always going to be wild off-the-wall readings of everything in existence), it is a good demonstration of how things are being read by the average reader. The comments on this page, when it came out, were wall-to-wall "You tell them, Tom! Wow, it's like she's talking directly to the reader, haha. Telling us there's absolutely nothing wrong and shame on us for judging her. Wow, get those critics, Tom!". Whether you disagree on how it's supposed to be interpreted or not, it was absolutely perceived by a lot of people on both sides of the Tony aisle as "Annie is directly speaking to the viewer and telling them that there's nothing wrong and she's very comfortable with her position in life." Not to mention that she's speaking to the comic's resident emotionless, impartial judge, who then goes and says "yup she's fine". There is no framing to suggest she's wrong here. There's no dark colors, no uncomfortable expressions. It's bright, it's vibrant, she fills the entire screen, she's very self-assured. Nothing is telling you in the text that Annie is supposed to be read as wrong. Only your own feelings that exist independent of the comic, which, if you'll look at my first paragraph, was not the case for most people. I would also argue that if that was NOT the intent of this scene and the correct interpretation is that hard to suss out for the majority of the audience, then that's a failing of the writer and not the audience and that is legitimately worth discussing instead of dismissing offhand. Tiny Myers fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 19:46
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Splicer posted:https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2468 we're all reading the same comic bro I just don't think the character's extensive establishment as unwilling to be honest with anyone, including herself, about her feelings was just random filler with no bearing on the story like I don't even disagree that he's hosed up the delivery lol it's just not unclear what he's trying to do A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 19:59
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We'll all be ashamed of our words and deeds when Red shows up in the final arc of the comic to point at each of the major cast members in turn, calling them all dunderheads and bimbos, then getting on a motorbike with Ayilu, popping a wheelie, and burning out of the comic forever.
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Apr 6, 2022 20:01
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Nuns with Guns posted:We'll all be ashamed of our words and deeds when Red shows up in the final arc of the comic to point at each of the major cast members in turn, calling them all dunderheads and bimbos, then getting on a motorbike with Ayilu, popping a wheelie, and burning out of the comic forever. like the congratulations scene from evangelion, each with a unique and accurate insult.
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Apr 6, 2022 20:04
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:we're all reading the same comic bro I just don't think the character's extensive establishment as unwilling to be honest with anyone, including herself, about her feelings was just random filler with no bearing on the story the presentation of those pages and their leadup make it look like her acceptance of Tony was meant to be some kind of apotheosis, a release from her earlier repressed behavior which just makes it more galling really
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Apr 6, 2022 20:22
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worm girl posted:Actually I struggle very badly with anxiety and am on the spectrum, but do go on. Yeah, that's pretty much how it works for a lot of us. It's an exaggeration, and he describes it to Jones with a TON of overwrought purple prose but that's basically the gist of it. There is absolutely nothing magical going on with Tony. He has social anxiety and, apparently, has at no point in his life ever figured that out or been exposed to people who could help him figure that out. And really more importantly the issue here is the comic has decided that having social anxiety absolves you of all responsibility for generally being a dick to people and especially to your own child. There is absolutely nothing you can do, at any point, ever. Infantilizing as heck and unhealthy to boot. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Apr 6, 2022 |
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Apr 6, 2022 20:30
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yeah, that's pretty much how it works for a lot of us. It's an exaggeration, and he describes it to Jones with a TON of overwrought purple prose but that's basically the gist of it. Yeah it's just such a lovely way to look at it - from BOTH sides. It's lovely for people in a situation similar to Annie cus it's saying "you can't improve the situation, you just need to learn to accept your abuser!" And it's lovely for people with social anxiety cus it's saying "you can't improve yourself, you need to hope people will accept you for who you are!"
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Apr 6, 2022 21:14
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Tiny Myers posted:
I could see the Dutch angle possibly signifying things aren't right for Annie. Also maybe the following pages where she isn't facing Jones for at lot of her speech. But then the bonus page makes it feel like all that was just stylistic choice. https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2473 That chapter was tedious and a big "wtf" for me. Also, yeah, anxiety comes in a lot of forms for different people. I know at least one person with anxiety similar to Tony's. I am in school for a "smart" field, take meds, and have had a lot of therapy. When I'm feeling awful, I often say, out loud, "Why the gently caress am I like this??" Tony's behavior isn't uncommon. Cavatica posted:Honestly you could even write something like Annie living with that kind of abuse effectively by not framing her as being correct and having the final say. The easiest fix I can see in doing that is reversing the order of that chapter. Start out with Annie monologuing to Jones, then have Jones talk to Tony, and then end with the concern all of her friends have about the situation. Pretty rough and off the top of my head, but the order would change the perspective that maybe her view isn't entirely healthy. This is an interesting idea, depending on how it was done. Feel weird about it potentially undercutting Annie's feelings though. I really wish there had been more exploration with the two Annies, instead of Annie recombining and apparently being totally mentally awesome now. I really appreciated the interaction when the Annies tried a switcheroo on Tony and when it didn't work, she was like "He tried =/" Just didn't feel as excusing to me.
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Apr 6, 2022 21:26
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No matter your opinions on Tony, I think we can all agree that getting rid of 2annie was truly the worst decision.
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Apr 6, 2022 22:27
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I only disliked it because it robbed us of a spectacular 50-page fight scene as the two Annies battle to the death for Tony’s love.
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Apr 7, 2022 02:06
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had the realization that this is debate between the court and loup but the court is represented by someone who has sworn to stop them and only knows what a non-shadow man explained to her off screen
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Apr 7, 2022 03:08
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I'm glad the there is only one Annie.
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Apr 7, 2022 03:10
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Riot Bus posted:I'm glad the there is only one Annie. Mods??
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Apr 7, 2022 03:29
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Riot Bus posted:I'm glad the there is only one Annie. I don't really get the point of the two Annies thing. The character had an established duality between her somewhat emotionless human self and her uncontrollable fire self already, and that was resolved organically with Ysengrin smashing her blinker stone. Court and Forest Annie split, had a single meaningful conversation, and then fused back together. Now we're following the new Annie and it's not totally clear what kind of person she has become. Also, why did Loup duplicate her in the first place? It could have been proximal to a point about multiverse theory and determinism or something, but then it just ended. For me that's what my issue with the last few chapters is. Things are just sort of happening without being narratively satisfying. Gunnerkrigg was always character driven and when it tries to do plot I think it's less interesting. worm girl fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Apr 7, 2022 |
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Apr 7, 2022 03:35
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worm girl posted:Also, why did Loup duplicate her in the first place? He did it because maybe it would be cool, and then it turned out, that it was.
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Apr 7, 2022 04:56
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nah, that whole storyline was a pointless waste of time they should've stayed in the underground bunker
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Apr 7, 2022 05:15
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he should do a Two Tonys arc it ends with them fusing back, and now Tony can be normal around exactly two people
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Apr 7, 2022 07:13
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worm girl posted:Also, why did Loup duplicate her in the first place? Why did that conversation last six months? Apparently Coyote just straight up controlled the flow of time in the forest (why?!) and Loup isn't very good at it. Also it was a way to bring up the revelation that Annie had been "shifted"; having us think that's what Loup did to her set up the second revelation that Kat actually did that and
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Apr 7, 2022 07:18
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How was Loup able to make a second Annie if he's so unskilled at controlling his powers, anyways? He's unable to control time, but is able to create a perfect copy of someone?
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Apr 7, 2022 07:23
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CodfishCartographer posted:How was Loup able to make a second Annie if he's so unskilled at controlling his powers, anyways? He's unable to control time, but is able to create a perfect copy of someone? Well, he is two different beings that became one, so maybe splitting one being into two just comes naturally to him.
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Apr 7, 2022 13:33
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worm girl posted:For me that's what my issue with the last few chapters is. Things are just sort of happening without being narratively satisfying. For all it's problems, I do agree and think this sort of motivationless meandering and lack of narrative oomph or agency is whats killing it the most for me. A lot of the rest people would forgive if we had a strong reason to care about what was happening and why.
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Apr 7, 2022 14:27
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GlyphGryph posted:For all it's problems, I do agree and think this sort of motivationless meandering and lack of narrative oomph or agency is whats killing it the most for me. A lot of the rest people would forgive if we had a strong reason to care about what was happening and why. I wonder how much of that is caused by reading as it comes out, vs reading it in one go. It is currently meandering a lot, I'm going to take a break for a week or 2 and then check back. Maybe it'll read better.
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Apr 7, 2022 14:35
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If you go back and reread the last few stories in one go, they honestly feel even more aimless and unmotivated than they did at the time, I think. And I've always read it as they came out, and the old stories never felt this way so... I don't really think that has much to do with it.
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Apr 7, 2022 14:43
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CodfishCartographer posted:How was Loup able to make a second Annie if he's so unskilled at controlling his powers, anyways? He's unable to control time, but is able to create a perfect copy of someone? He didn't make a whole new Annie, it's just a natural consequence of Annie walking into a timestopped area but Loup unstopping her so they could talk. Saslamel's little translator guy explained it as maswastaken pointed out. It's the same trick Kat used with her bird robot to make enough of them to save Annie. Loup is practically omnipotent, but he is not omniscient (except selectively) and he lacks the wisdom to use a light touch with his powers or consider the consequences for people affected.
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Apr 7, 2022 15:12
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:we're all reading the same comic bro I just don't think the character's extensive establishment as unwilling to be honest with anyone, including herself, about her feelings was just random filler with no bearing on the story Tom could have framed that shot with Jones visible with Annie facing Jones. Making Jones the (literal) P.O.V. character is either Tom word of godding this at us, or Tom being an absolute dogshit tier visual storyteller. Anyway I came here to post his for unrelated reasons that will become obvious: 
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Apr 7, 2022 16:25
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Splicer posted:or Tom being an absolute dogshit tier visual storyteller. this is the thing that's been bothering me the most about some of these posts recently, so many people just outright infantilizing tom. he is a very good artist, he's not going to do something that heavy by accident. if you can look at that page and say it's anything other than an intentional endorsement of what she's saying, you're just reading an entirely different comic than i am.
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Apr 7, 2022 16:33
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CodfishCartographer posted:Yeah it's just such a lovely way to look at it - from BOTH sides. It's lovely for people in a situation similar to Annie cus it's saying "you can't improve the situation, you just need to learn to accept your abuser!" And it's lovely for people with social anxiety cus it's saying "you can't improve yourself, you need to hope people will accept you for who you are!"
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Apr 7, 2022 18:10
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