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hyphz posted:So they are literally trying to make a tabletop version of a pay-to-win MMO, but expecting other people to run it. It's the same "x but with bitcoin" poo poo we've been seeing for the last decade. Do the exact same thing you've been doing but now pay us for no benefit. Where do I sign up?
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Apr 9, 2022 19:00
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Based on past evidence they're just going to mint their 10k NFTs and disappear forever, so the game idea doesn't have to be good, it just has to sound good enough to get people to buy their garbage on the promise of them implementing it. But yes, it sounds terrible.
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Apr 9, 2022 19:22
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MadScientistWorking posted:https://gizmodo.com/dungeons-dragons-nft-gripnr-blockchain-dnd-ttrpg-1848686984 Oh they assert it do they.
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Apr 9, 2022 19:49
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The opportunity to wipe out $4k of NFTs in 3 hours is about the only thing that could entice me to run D&D.
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Apr 9, 2022 20:16
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CitizenKeen posted:I would love to see an ongoing set of books, setting books, where things changed but the PCs could change things, too.
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Apr 9, 2022 20:35
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Ultiville posted:Based on past evidence they're just going to mint their 10k NFTs and disappear forever, so the game idea doesn't have to be good, it just has to sound good enough to get people to buy their garbage on the promise of them implementing it. "Gripnr plans to generate 10,000 random D&D player characters [...] and mint them as non-fungible tokens, or NFTs. [...] Next, Gripnr will build a system for recording game progress on the Polygon blockchain." There's just something so very telling about the entire difficult part of the whole thing being a problem for Future Gripnr to solve.
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Apr 9, 2022 20:37
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The thing that gets me is when people like this NFT guy or the person working for him (who I've never heard of, they have credits on D&D and Pathfinder) complain about how articles like this unfairly portray them, "don't get it," etc, it's like they can't just be happy with trying to get the bag, they also insist that everyone pat them on the head while they're at it. If you're so convinced that your idea is so incredibly amazing that it's gonna revolutionize and disrupt everything then just do it and laugh all the way to the bank.
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Apr 9, 2022 22:50
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quote:One of the most important people at Gripnr is its president and head of product, Patrick Comer. In a call with io9, he was perfectly pleasant, generous with his time, and happy to answer questions. He is not a scammer, he’s not looking to create a get rich quick scheme, and he clearly, obviously, loves Dungeons & Dragons. But he also comes across as naïve: A puppy with Web3 access, millions in his bank account, and no game design experience. I hate this quote (which is from the article being discussed, to be very clear) because it's basically the new form of gatekeeping and policing who's authentic. You're not a real gamer, you're not in popular online RPG communities we recognize, you're not in any streamed games, and you don't even tweet about RPGs. It's gross and it's disgusting and it's going to hurt the hobby in new and horrifying ways, and it isn't excusable because this person is an NFT idiot. This is completely unacceptable.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:00
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Arivia posted:I hate this quote (which is from the article being discussed, to be very clear) because it's basically the new form of gatekeeping and policing who's authentic. You're not a real gamer, you're not in popular online RPG communities we recognize, you're not in any streamed games, and you don't even tweet about RPGs. It's gross and it's disgusting and it's going to hurt the hobby in new and horrifying ways, and it isn't excusable because this person is an NFT idiot. This is completely unacceptable. If you're asking people to invest lots of real money into a moonshot project and you have no track record, that's not called "gatekeeping", it's called "due diligence".
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Apr 9, 2022 23:08
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Kai Tave posted:The thing that gets me is when people like this NFT guy or the person working for him (who I've never heard of, they have credits on D&D and Pathfinder) complain about how articles like this unfairly portray them, "don't get it," etc, it's like they can't just be happy with trying to get the bag, they also insist that everyone pat them on the head while they're at it. If you're so convinced that your idea is so incredibly amazing that it's gonna revolutionize and disrupt everything then just do it and laugh all the way to the bank. It's actually necessary for them to constantly reinforce themselves and dismiss doubters because the whole thing is a gigantic loving obvious scam and even stupid people might eventually cotton on to that fact, so you have to reassure the rubes somehow.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:09
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Yeah, it's obnoxious and it's a necessary part of the business model. Engaging in Posting Jihad with all your haters is the accepted way to market anything in crypto.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:14
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CitizenKeen posted:If you're asking people to invest lots of real money into a moonshot project and you have no track record, that's not called "gatekeeping", it's called "due diligence". Yes, but as I'm pointing out, this is a lovely way to try and arbitrate anyone's "real gamer status." There are plenty of reasons to clown on this project, and there are plenty of criticisms to be made of the people involved. But we don't need to be deciding who's a real gamer according to arbitrary benchmarks, whomever it is.
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Apr 9, 2022 23:18
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The same type of MLM bullshit gets pulled in virtually every NFT scam. To keep it in the trad games sphere, here's one of the head https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6704364/tzer
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Apr 9, 2022 23:24
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Arivia posted:Yes, but as I'm pointing out, this is a lovely way to try and arbitrate anyone's "real gamer status." There are plenty of reasons to clown on this project, and there are plenty of criticisms to be made of the people involved. But we don't need to be deciding who's a real gamer according to arbitrary benchmarks, whomever it is. I feel like those three are an easy litmus test for someone who is planning on revolutionizing the RPG industry. Who is someone who you think would be capable of launching/backing a successful online community that requires massive community buy-in (both interest and money) who 1. Has no published game credits 2. Had never appeared in an actual play 3. Has never engaged in social media about RPGs ? Because I think anybody who goes 0/3 on those three is a red flag for community investment, and I don’t think that’s gatekeeping. Edit: I’m not saying those make someone qualified, but the absence of those things certainly makes me question how a person knows enough ally the online TTRPG community to launch this. CitizenKeen fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 9, 2022 |
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Apr 9, 2022 23:25
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It's reasonable to ask what a creator's experience is, particularly when their project is a high-cost luxury product. (Whether or not it's genuinely valuable is another story, but when the buy-in is likely over $400, it is what it is.)
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Apr 9, 2022 23:32
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Arivia posted:Yes, but as I'm pointing out, this is a lovely way to try and arbitrate anyone's "real gamer status." There are plenty of reasons to clown on this project, and there are plenty of criticisms to be made of the people involved. But we don't need to be deciding who's a real gamer according to arbitrary benchmarks, whomever it is. Insofar as I'm not really a big fan of gatekeeping, the issue again is that this guy wants people to put lots of money into their NFT-driven paid subscription GMing-and-character-creating-and-logging service and seems to have absolutely no interest in any sort of community beyond what he can extract monetized value from. Calling him a "carpetbagger" as the article does seems entirely correct and this is part of it. He could play lots of D&D in his spare time and enjoy it, good for him, the issue isn't that he's not a "real gamer," the issue is that he's a guy who showed up out of nowhere and his very first introduction has been "how do you do fellow D&D players, welcome to an amazing investment opportunity." It isn't actually disgusting to point out when someone has clearly only taken an interest in becoming a part of a wider community for the money, especially when even the most casual familiarity with, I would say, a lot of gaming communities and not just twitter would quickly inform someone that NFTs are going to be a hard sell (to put it mildly).
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Apr 9, 2022 23:35
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Kai Tave posted:Insofar as I'm not really a big fan of gatekeeping, the issue again is that this guy wants people to put lots of money into their NFT-driven paid subscription GMing-and-character-creating-and-logging service and seems to have absolutely no interest in any sort of community beyond what he can extract monetized value from. Calling him a "carpetbagger" as the article does seems entirely correct and this is part of it. He could play lots of D&D in his spare time and enjoy it, good for him, the issue isn't that he's not a "real gamer," the issue is that he's a guy who showed up out of nowhere and his very first introduction has been "how do you do fellow D&D players, welcome to an amazing investment opportunity." It isn't actually disgusting to point out when someone has clearly only taken an interest in becoming a part of a wider community for the money, especially when even the most casual familiarity with, I would say, a lot of gaming communities and not just twitter would quickly inform someone that NFTs are going to be a hard sell (to put it mildly). before this, that kind of bio attached to a new TTRPG project almost always presaged a new fantasy heartbreaker and usually all that asked of you is $40 for a bad sourcebook
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Apr 10, 2022 00:08
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The Chairman posted:before this, that kind of bio attached to a new TTRPG project almost always presaged a new fantasy heartbreaker and usually all that asked of you is $40 for a bad sourcebook It's a thing I commonly associate with brand new revolutionary Kickstarter projects done by someone who's clearly done no homework and has "1st created, 0 backed" in their profile, and who gets mad if you try to point out why people might not be lining up to throw money at a generic fantasy RPG that's been "in playtesting for 20 years" or a roll-and-move board game.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:12
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Honestly, I think you can go a little bit further than that. I really don't think this guy does have much (maybe even any?) actual TTRPG experience. I think he's either exaggerating or outright fabricating his long history of playing D&D in person. I don't say this based on the fact that he hasn't displayed much TTRPG 'community engagement' (I'll agree that a lack of community engagement is a red flag in terms of his business credibility, given that he's launching an ambitious project the success of which depends deeply on involvement and buy-in from the wider TTRPG community, but I don't think it makes him Not A Real Gamer). I say it because... well, honestly, I find it basically impossible to believe that a person can really play more than a couple of games of D&D and still think this bullshit is in any way a good idea. The technical and logistical challenges that prevent it from actually ever working are just so obvious. Hell, they're pretty apparent even if you've never so much as picked up a set of polyhedral dice, a person with actual firsthand experience with tabletop gaming has to know this would never work. It's an idea on par with saying "we'll make an NFT of your car's engine, that way if it breaks down, your mechanic can just fix it via WiFi by minting new parts!'. so yeah I feel fine gatekeeping him as not a real gamer on the logic that: if you were a real gamer you wouldn't be trying to make loving NFT character sheets a thing.
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Apr 10, 2022 00:14
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Kai Tave posted:It's a thing I commonly associate with brand new revolutionary Kickstarter projects done by someone who's clearly done no homework and has "1st created, 0 backed" in their profile, and who gets mad if you try to point out why people might not be lining up to throw money at a generic fantasy RPG that's been "in playtesting for 20 years" or a roll-and-move board game. in the case of Gripnr, the "has clearly done no homework" part definitely rings true because in their FAQ about The Glimmering they say that D&D is currently played either in-person or over video chat like Zoom and imply that making a virtual tabletop is going to be a massive, never-before-seen undertaking that will be enabled by their NFTs and funded by their presale, so apparently either nobody involved has heard of Roll20 or Astral or Tabletop Simulator, or they're hoping the people who buy in aren't aware of those things
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Apr 10, 2022 00:20
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BrainParasite posted:The opportunity to wipe out $4k of NFTs in 3 hours is about the only thing that could entice me to run D&D. I love the idea of a killer GM getting taken to court for destruction of property. "Sir, is it true that you neglected to mention the ooze trails in the cavern that the module *specifically* lists as present? Therefore, your willful neglect led to destruction of plaintiffs property to a... Gelatinous Ooze?"
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Apr 10, 2022 00:23
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Capfalcon posted:I love the idea of a killer GM getting taken to court for destruction of property. *consults notes* "My client disclosed no failed perception roles. Did you use passive perception?" *silence* "Because my client's sheet clearly shows a passive perception of 16" *silence* "Or were these hidden rolls?" *silence* "Because my client's Reliable Talent class feature still applies" *mumbling* "I'm sorry I didn't catch that" *loudly, defiantly* "Crit failure on a nat one" *raising voice to shout over increasingly loud courtroom mumbling* "ON A NAT 1 TRUMPS RELIABLE TAL-" *court erupts into chaos* Splicer fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 01:32
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If this is "gatekeeping" then "gatekeeping" has become a meaningless term.
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Apr 10, 2022 01:38
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Gripnr, as in the name, has to be inspired by Grignr, the hero of the infamous The Eye of Argon, right? The book considered the worst fantasy novel ever published, so fantastically terrible that you sit around trying to hold a straight face while you read it out loud, as a hilarious fun contest? That book? That's the character they're naming their NFT thing? Are we sure this isn't a parody?
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Apr 10, 2022 01:40
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Splicer posted:"Their characters were insufficiently perceptive to notice them." I would like to watch this show. Absurd Alhazred posted:If this is "gatekeeping" then "gatekeeping" has become a meaningless term. It's one thing to tell people to not get involved because they're icky girls or non-white people, it's a whole other thing to tell people not to get involved with a clueless, vulgar, scam tied to actual environmental degradation and wastefulness which is merely another bubble in a bubbling swamp.
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Apr 10, 2022 01:42
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Naw, they claim it's from Gleipnir, the unbreakable chain that holds Fenrir from Norse myth. Still feels like parody.
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Apr 10, 2022 01:44
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Omnicrom posted:I would like to watch this show. Oh my God, I can just see it: Rules Lawyers But yes, gatekeeping would be not letting them attend or run a game at a convention or gaming club because they're not members of the right facebook or message board community. Pointing out that someone with no previous record of working on an RPG in any public capacity is asking for a ton of money and being wary is just basic common sense. Hidingo Kojimba fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 01:53
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Leperflesh posted:Gripnr, as in the name, has to be inspired by Grignr, the hero of the infamous The Eye of Argon, right? It's named after Gleipnir, the chain binding Fenrir in Norse myth. Which Grignr was probably also named after, at least in a vague "mashing vaguely Norse sounds together" way. Crypto likes to name things ironically to pretend they're in on the joke, but I don't think that's the case here. Arivia posted:I hate this quote (which is from the article being discussed, to be very clear) because it's basically the new form of gatekeeping and policing who's authentic. You're not a real gamer, you're not in popular online RPG communities we recognize, you're not in any streamed games, and you don't even tweet about RPGs. It's gross and it's disgusting and it's going to hurt the hobby in new and horrifying ways, and it isn't excusable because this person is an NFT idiot. This is completely unacceptable. I disagree with this point, because a known problem with crypto culture (and investor culture in general) is that it barges into completely unrelated cultures, goes "hello fellow kids" and tries to sell people on their cool new idea without actually knowing what that culture values. It's why you keep getting these projects that are sold on "but you can turn your hobbies into money-making opportunities!", which are then met with everyone they're trying to sell it to that isn't already an investor telling them to gently caress off, because only people in that crypto investor culture actually care about monetizing literally every aspect of their life that way. So, "is this a D&D nerd who's into crypto, or a crypto nerd that thinks he can exploit D&D" is an actual question, because it's about whether he ever was actually part of the D&D player culture.
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Apr 10, 2022 03:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If this is "gatekeeping" then "gatekeeping" has become a meaningless term. So yeah, it's been a meaningless term for a while.
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Apr 10, 2022 03:39
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This is even less apt though, because we're not telling this person they're not welcome to play. We're judging their qualifications for a project they're hoping we'll give money to. There are legit criticism to be made about that process and how narrow judging of qualifications can exclude marginalized people and so forth, but it is sure as heck not gatekeeping. And in the specific case we're talking about here, this person doesn't seem to be marginalized, they just seem to have a bad idea and not enough demonstrated experience to convince anyone it's likely to be better than it looks.
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Apr 10, 2022 03:45
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Splicer posted:"Their characters were insufficiently perceptive to notice them." Objection, houseruling.
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Apr 10, 2022 06:17
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All laws must have been passed by the House, and are therefore Houserules.
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Apr 10, 2022 06:26
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griftnr
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Apr 10, 2022 07:10
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Lurks With Wolves posted:It's named after Gleipnir, the chain binding Fenrir in Norse myth. Which Grignr was probably also named after, at least in a vague "mashing vaguely Norse sounds together" way. Crypto likes to name things ironically to pretend they're in on the joke, but I don't think that's the case here. Unfortunately also not the first time, and won't be the last, where the cry of 'Gatekeeping!' is used when people question and call out an obvious grifter who marches into a space demanding to be respected as an authority and throws tantrums when people question them. Of course, it's especially obvious with crypto people whose entire culture revolves around Dunning-Kruger and speaking in buzzword salad with little to no understanding of what anything actually does or how it is used, and getting away with it because they talk to people who also don't know how it works and mistake their confidence for knowledge.
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Apr 10, 2022 07:12
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FMguru posted:There was a tweet from Mearls where he said that RPGers who weren't actively working to recruit new people into the hobby (i.e. doing the work of WotC's marketing department for free) were "gatekeepers". He also said that if you try to exclude women with complicated rules and dense lore, you're fired from DnD, because women famously hate complicated games and every single women I know who games totally doesn't have hundreds of hours in complicated games like Rimworld and Kenshi and poo poo. It's been worthless since at least 2017. Honestly RPG twitter just screams gatekeeping at reasonable poo poo. People will be like "I expect you to be able to understand the rules" gatekeeping. "You must show up on time, shower and stay engaged with the group and not sit on the phone ignoring everyone until its your turn" gatekeeping. "You are not allowed (in this game I am running) to bring up sexual stuff, my 11 year old is also in the game" gatekeeping. "You must only expect an equal amount of time in the spotlight as other characters" gatekeeping. "You are not allowed to play evil characters" gatekeeping. I do very little gatekeeping but gatekeeping is an objectively good tool to use. I think people that are against it are just falling into the Geek Social Fallacy problem over and over.
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Apr 10, 2022 08:40
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theironjef posted:Objection, houseruling.
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Apr 10, 2022 10:44
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"Gatekeeping" has always been a meaningless term. The only time the phenomenon is even a bad thing is when it's based on sexism or some other bigoted criteria, and guess what, you can describe how bad that is by calling it "bigotry," no weird attempt to turn Geek Social Fallacies #1 into a virtue necessary.
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Apr 10, 2022 13:26
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I would like to point out that its not gatekeeping to point out that this person has no experience in what he is doing. Playing an RPG is drastically different than running Organized Play for an RPG which is what this is. Its an Organized Play system not unlike Adventurer's League or PFS/SFS. And given my experiences with both of those there are so many considerations at play. You have issues with game mechanics potentially being inappropriate for players.* How do you handle leveling? How do you handle treasure? How do you moderate the community? How do you manage the community and volunteers? Item access.... Plot.... So on and so on.... It is a lot of work to manage such an organization and even looking into it deeper seems to indicate they don't understand the magnitude of the issue. *Supposedly, most of the mechanics will be new to this setting but once again. What happens if your designer accidentally creates an overpowered mechanic or item? You've now attached a monetary value to the process of errata. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 13:31
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Like yeah, if it was someone who was new to the industry or hobby or whatever and was just releasing a game, a book or stream or podcast or whatever and they didn't have any experience it'd be pretty dickish to start investigating their past. Because yeah even if it is bad, it's still relatively harmless. But like the moment you start talking the type of money, and potentially screwing over people in a way more than like, "drat I spent 20 dollars on a lovely book/supplement, that sucks." it's pretty fair to bring up people's resumes, and their history in a space. When getting into things involving like investment and whether you should put any faith/money in a product or service sight unseen.
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Apr 10, 2022 13:41
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Dexo posted:But like the moment you start talking the type of money, and potentially screwing over people in a way more than like, "drat I spent 20 dollars on a lovely book/supplement, that sucks." it's pretty fair to bring up people's resumes, and their history in a space. When getting into things involving like investment and whether you should put any faith/money in a product or service sight unseen. especially since the pitch as it's delivered now is for an incomplete product, it's basically "step 1: we release character NFTs and you buy one, step 2: the magic happens, step 3: you can do things with your character NFTs besides look at them"
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Apr 10, 2022 14:14
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